A
Adrienne Boswell
Yup, that'll make people mad all right - can't resize pixels in IE.
Yup, that'll make people mad all right - can't resize pixels in IE.
O
Olaf Schinkel
W
WindAndWaves
Adrienne Boswell said:
Well, you can change your screen or the number of pixels on your screen.
Did you know that all the message in Windows are about font-size 10px?
Unless you change the size of your screen.
It is funny, because a lot of people complain when your website fonts go
below 12pt, while all window message boxes are in 8pt and people do not seem
to care too much about that.
I reckon that if you have bad eyesight it is easiest to increase the size of
your monitor (or decrease the area shown), rather than trying to influence
the look of websites. Many sites actually use images with 8pt fonts, and
you are not going to increase those by increasing the font size so there you
go.
What do you think about this Richard (I know that you are big on this
topic).
I am interested to hear people's opinion about this.
TIA
- Nicolaas
C
C.W.
Which is easier: change the text size, say in IE from Medium to
Larger, or the person haivng to go and change screen resolution
settings instead?
To me it would be the option given in the browser versus the other.
Maybe they don't try to read those tool tip window's text as sometimes
it is not "informative" but someone merely repeating "Home" for the
main page link.
But a tool tip window is different from reading a page filled with
text.
Increasing the size of the monitor? You mean buy a new monitor or
desktop resolution settings? And if the latter - if I go larger then
there are more pixels across the screen area which means that 8px font
is covering less area/size even though still being 8 pixels in size.
rather than trying to influence
Which is why those sites are recommended to share alt="" and to repeat
that image-shared text as text somewhere within the page.
Which none of the above removes the fact that there are sizing methods
available, through CSS, that can more easily accomadate resizing of
text without the user needing to tweak their PC's settings versus the
browesr's.
So what argumentation, besides "well, some other people do it that
way... " and "well, text in images can't be resized ..." [which the
images sorta kinda can be in Opera or Firefox, btw] can be supplied
as a reasoning NOT to use % or em sizing instead of px or pt?
[Paticularly when discussing "out-dated" thoughts ... as accessibility
thoughts was not much consideration back in 1995 but is now - but back
in 1995 <font size="2"> was the method of text sizing used and that
method is resizeable through the browser.]
Carol
A
Adrienne Boswell
Yes, and I can change my OS settings without a problem. However, I
cannot go and change a web site's font sizes if a) they are set in pixels
or points and 2) I am unfortunate enough to be using IE.
Actually, Opera can do this, although the images get pixelated sometimes
to the point where they are illegible.
The best thing to do is not specify a font size at all. That way, if
Jane has her font size at large, she will get large, and if John has his
set a small, he will get small. Define headers and footers in
percentages.
R
rf
WindAndWaves said:
I recon you are being bloody arrogant suggesting your viewer do *anything*
with their screen. Does your local radio station try to force you to use a
bigger radio if you want louder music? No, they allow you to adjust your
volume control, just as you should allow your viewer to adjust their font
size.
The down side (for you, not me) is that if a viewer can not read your site
they will silently go elsewhere. You won't get to hear any complaint, you
simply wont hear from that at all, especially to make a sale. Put obstacles
on front of your information that annoy your viewer *at your own peril*.
On that complaint issue I see people often in here saying "I havn't had any
complaints about my fly dropping sized font". Of course you haven't. Why
would anybody complain. This is the web, there is no use. The designer isn't
going to fix it this instant, if at all, and I want to buy that product NOW.
Your site is unreadable, I press back and go to the next search result. Your
loss, your competitors gain, and I am still happy.
However, having said that, I personally don't even care what font size you
have chosen, or what units you use. On the odd occasion that I use IE
(usually because some bonehead drezigner has a page that breaks with other
browsers) I use it with the "ignore font sizes in web pages" accessibility
option set. I don't even *see* that you have specified pixels. I merrily
adjust my font size to suit myself. This also neatly avoids that stupidly
small text that most pixel drezigners tend to use. The default is what I
have set my browsers default to be. I don't even have to use my mouse wheel
to change the font back to what I like.
Fortunately modern browsers don't have the IE bug of fixing font size if it
is specified in pixels and allow the viewer to change the font size anyway.
Just in case you have also specified a line height (a thing that many pixel
drezigners do), which causes the larger text to overlap, my IE user style
sheet also specifies line-height: 1.5em. So, I have the text set as *I* like
it, not what the drezigner likes.
If I *really* need to look at the content of the page and it is still broken
in a visual browser I might use lynx, where none of your presentational
choices have any relevance. Of course I might just press that back button
W
WindAndWaves
....snip ....
Problem being, if you want something that looks sexy it helps if you have
good-looking fonts that isn't to big or too small. My point is that
everything should be in relation/proportion to each other and that is why a
larger monitor / larger pixels actually works better than just increasing
the font size. You can see what I mean in Flash objects, these can be
"zoomed" and actually everything increases in size, not just the fonts.
This is much better from a look and feel point of view than a page with
oversized fonts and small images.
For example, www.corstorphinehouse.com is a page that I recently designed.
You could make the fonts huge, but it would totally destroy the design. I
am a great fan of nice design.
Thank you for your comments
- Nicolaas
Problem being, if you want something that looks sexy it helps if you have
good-looking fonts that isn't to big or too small. My point is that
everything should be in relation/proportion to each other and that is why a
larger monitor / larger pixels actually works better than just increasing
the font size. You can see what I mean in Flash objects, these can be
"zoomed" and actually everything increases in size, not just the fonts.
This is much better from a look and feel point of view than a page with
oversized fonts and small images.
For example, www.corstorphinehouse.com is a page that I recently designed.
You could make the fonts huge, but it would totally destroy the design. I
am a great fan of nice design.
Thank you for your comments
- Nicolaas
R
rf
WindAndWaves wrote:
[second attemp at this]
Wrong. The size of just about every bit of text on the windows desktop is
under user control.
Right click desktop>properties>appearance>advanced (XP) and you will find an
edit control in there labelled size. Yep. that is the font size to use for
the selected desktop item. Because I run my screens at 1600x1280, and I have
slightly poor eyesight, I have all my desktop set to size 12.
Every serious program that ships with windows and also those that microsoft
sell, allows one to change the size of the font. Even lowly notepad!.
Your argument has fallen. If windows allows one to change the size of the
font then why should you as a web author attempt to stop your viewer from
changing their font size?
[second attemp at this
]Wrong. The size of just about every bit of text on the windows desktop is
under user control.
Right click desktop>properties>appearance>advanced (XP) and you will find an
edit control in there labelled size. Yep. that is the font size to use for
the selected desktop item. Because I run my screens at 1600x1280, and I have
slightly poor eyesight, I have all my desktop set to size 12.
Every serious program that ships with windows and also those that microsoft
sell, allows one to change the size of the font. Even lowly notepad!.
Your argument has fallen. If windows allows one to change the size of the
font then why should you as a web author attempt to stop your viewer from
changing their font size?
W
WindAndWaves
rf said:size
I recon you are being bloody arrogant suggesting your viewer do *anything*
with their screen. Does your local radio station try to force you to use a
bigger radio if you want louder music? No, they allow you to adjust your
volume control, just as you should allow your viewer to adjust their font
size.
The down side (for you, not me) is that if a viewer can not read your site
they will silently go elsewhere. You won't get to hear any complaint, you
simply wont hear from that at all, especially to make a sale. Put obstacles
on front of your information that annoy your viewer *at your own peril*.
On that complaint issue I see people often in here saying "I havn't had any
complaints about my fly dropping sized font". Of course you haven't. Why
would anybody complain. This is the web, there is no use. The designer isn't
going to fix it this instant, if at all, and I want to buy that product NOW.
Your site is unreadable, I press back and go to the next search result. Your
loss, your competitors gain, and I am still happy.
However, having said that, I personally don't even care what font size you
have chosen, or what units you use. On the odd occasion that I use IE
(usually because some bonehead drezigner has a page that breaks with other
browsers) I use it with the "ignore font sizes in web pages" accessibility
option set. I don't even *see* that you have specified pixels. I merrily
adjust my font size to suit myself. This also neatly avoids that stupidly
small text that most pixel drezigners tend to use. The default is what I
have set my browsers default to be. I don't even have to use my mouse wheel
to change the font back to what I like.
Fortunately modern browsers don't have the IE bug of fixing font size if it
is specified in pixels and allow the viewer to change the font size anyway.
Just in case you have also specified a line height (a thing that many pixel
drezigners do), which causes the larger text to overlap, my IE user style
sheet also specifies line-height: 1.5em. So, I have the text set as *I* like
it, not what the drezigner likes.
If I *really* need to look at the content of the page and it is still broken
in a visual browser I might use lynx, where none of your presentational
choices have any relevance. Of course I might just press that back button
How about books, magazines, CD covers, packaging, TV, road signs, etc....
All of these media use fixed fonts and the only way to increase the font
size is to buy a larger TV, a loop or glasses/contacts.
Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that we should not take into account
people with bad eyesight (that is why, for example, road signs are fairly
large). We should.
However,having said that, it is fairly easy (in windows at least) to set the
"pixel-size" for your screen (at least on the old ones, not sure about LCD,
but I am sure it is possible). This means that all applications, anywhere,
anytime, anything will
a. look as the designer intended it (i.e. proportion is one of the biggest
things in design and as soon as you increase the font size you loose
proportionality)
b. all items will be larger (or smaller) as it pleases you (not just fonts,
also images, tickboxes, icons, buttons, lines, windows, borders, etc....)
I really think that this makes a lot more sense than having to tune your
browser fonts as you describe, etc....
I am not trying to offend anyone here, but I just want to see if my theory
makes sense (to me it still does, but I am keen to listen).
- Nicolaas
PS in terms of the radio analogy, increasing the fonts would be like
increasing the voices on the radio, but leaving the background noise at the
same level.
R
rf
WindAndWaves said:
Rubbish. The design is flawed to start with. Yes, if I make my font size too
large word wrap makes the lines too short. This is not because I have
changed my font size, it is because you have a fixed width design. When I
get cranky because there are too few words on a line I make my browser wider
(probably up to 100 pixels for your site). However, with your design nothing
happens. *You* have made the decision that *I* want to view your site 800
pixels wide. This is an incorrect decision.
L
Leonard Blaisdell
"rf" said:
With Lynx, you could get and have an excellent chance of getting:
[IMAGE]
[LINK]
[LINK]
[IMAGE]
[LINK]
Of course, that's a site failure ;-)
leo
W
Wÿrm
How many of these "medias" have canvas that's flexible size and can be
adjusted AFTER you already have started to read them? I can change browser
window size, never managed change CD cover size, book, TV, magazine, road
sign etc...
It's possible but results from changing result in LCD are "horrible" in most
cases... Only 1/2 rez (1280 x 960 => 640 x 480) etc. work decently because
totally different way LCS works compared to CRT.
<snip>
W
WindAndWaves
Wÿrm said:etc....
How many of these "medias" have canvas that's flexible size and can be
adjusted AFTER you already have started to read them? I can change browser
window size, never managed change CD cover size, book, TV, magazine, road
sign etc...
Note *canvas* size, that is what I am all about *increase* the canvas not
just the fonts.
Yes, so maybe it does not so much apply to LCD. Then again, I know someone
with a 17"+ LCD and everything looks nice and big. I know that this costs
more. But the results are splendid. Everything is nice and large - but *in
proportion*.
W
WindAndWaves
rf said:WindAndWaves wrote:
[second attemp at this
Wrong. The size of just about every bit of text on the windows desktop is
under user control.
Right click desktop>properties>appearance>advanced (XP) and you will find an
edit control in there labelled size. Yep. that is the font size to use for
the selected desktop item. Because I run my screens at 1600x1280, and I have
slightly poor eyesight, I have all my desktop set to size 12.
Every serious program that ships with windows and also those that microsoft
sell, allows one to change the size of the font. Even lowly notepad!.
Your argument has fallen. If windows allows one to change the size of the
font then why should you as a web author attempt to stop your viewer from
changing their font size?
Dear Richard,
I think you are missing the point. We all agree that people should be able
to adjust the size of items on their screens. Absolutely.
My point is that you should not *just* change font sizes, but overall size
of everything, images, icons, the little X to close a window, etc.... as
this is
a. less cumbersome
b. respects the designer
c. is easier to design for
My point is not that you are not allowed to change with font-sizes, my point
is that it should be relative.
I give you a last example. Take MS Word (and apologies for all the MS
references, this is all I know). In 2003, they have this new feature where
the font is increased, but nothing else. It is horrible, because, for
example, when you get a letter, it seems that the letter is 5 pages long.
Everything seems out of sinc.
Now, a much better way to look at the letter is to just zoom and make
everything bigger. That means that everything is still in proportion on the
page, that it is still only one page, that tabular data makes sense, that it
looks as intended, etc...
The first method (increasing only font-size) as described above would work
fine for a simple letter, but if it was, for example a government form (as
I received recently) then the font increase only makes the form look
horrible, while a simple zoom (as actually is available on Opera btw - the
smartest browser in my humble opinion) keeps the nice look (I am a libra and
I am big on aesthetics) and also makes it legible.
Consider also a PDF for that matter. There you zoom rather than increase
the font size and it looks much smarter than increasing just the font size.
I hope you see my point.
Cheers
- Nicolaas
W
Wÿrm
Obviously, you have no idea what you ARE talking about. If i change
RESOLUTION to smaller => smaller canvas => less pixel.
Point is, when window is "fullscreen" it can't be sized bigger. And not all
like browse window maximized.. etc..
Changing resolution for one site is very dedious (just to please some
"designer" who haven't yet realized things), and if I have system fonts set
BIG already for my normal resolution of say. 1024x768, if I go for 640x480,
system fonts are then even bigger. In CRT that change would be ok, in laptop
it would NOT be ok because result would be crap. Try LCD and learn, I am
sure there's some shop that have those and you can go test them.
It's easier to allow person change fontsize in website than force them to
change screensize for one website. Even in CRT it's stupid to change
resolution just for the one site. Would you change screen resolution just so
you could read text? or Write e-mail?
Not if you force me to change my screen resolution of (if I am lucky to own
BIG enough LCD) from 1600x1200 to 800 x 600. it makes every text 4 times (2
x 2) bigger unless I should use some other resolution => horrible blurred or
distorted image. If you do not believe, go some shop and try and see.. More
and more monitors are LCD, more and more ppl have laptops with LCD. If you
refuse take them account, more you alienate people from your website. Simple
fact.
If you do not believe, go try LCD monitor etc. Change your system font
originally much bigger than default, but do not make claims if you haven't
done that and not seen results.
I'm done with this because as long as you do not know what you are talking
about, it's pointless. So no point to reply on this
<snip>
W
WindAndWaves
Wÿrm said:Obviously, you have no idea what you ARE talking about. If i change
RESOLUTION to smaller => smaller canvas => less pixel.
Point is, when window is "fullscreen" it can't be sized bigger. And not all
like browse window maximized.. etc..
Changing resolution for one site is very dedious (just to please some
"designer" who haven't yet realized things), and if I have system fonts set
BIG already for my normal resolution of say. 1024x768, if I go for 640x480,
system fonts are then even bigger. In CRT that change would be ok, in laptop
it would NOT be ok because result would be crap. Try LCD and learn, I am
sure there's some shop that have those and you can go test them.
It's easier to allow person change fontsize in website than force them to
change screensize for one website. Even in CRT it's stupid to change
resolution just for the one site. Would you change screen resolution just so
you could read text? or Write e-mail?
Not if you force me to change my screen resolution of (if I am lucky to own
BIG enough LCD) from 1600x1200 to 800 x 600. it makes every text 4 times (2
x 2) bigger unless I should use some other resolution => horrible blurred or
distorted image. If you do not believe, go some shop and try and see.. More
and more monitors are LCD, more and more ppl have laptops with LCD. If you
refuse take them account, more you alienate people from your website. Simple
fact.
If you do not believe, go try LCD monitor etc. Change your system font
originally much bigger than default, but do not make claims if you haven't
done that and not seen results.
I'm done with this because as long as you do not know what you are talking
about, it's pointless. So no point to reply on this
<snip>
I hear your point, and I definitely see the problem with LCD screens. I am
not very familiar with all the terminology, but I have seen LCDs going
bananas with the wrong resolution.
Thank you for your comments ;-)
- Nicolaas
R
rf
WindAndWaves said:
I think *you* are missing *my* point.
I defeat your argument and you change the ground rules.
You said windows dialogs were 8 points. I prove you wrong. You then start
talking about something totally different.
In any case why did you ask me for my opinion if you now consider it to be
wrong?
W
WindAndWaves
rf said:
Hi Richard
I got your point and which was that windows is completely customisable. I
work a lot with MS Access and unfortunately, for example, the tickbox can
not be changed in size. It is always about 8pt high (far too small in my
opinion).
Anyway, in principle, what do you think about the zoom argument. I think it
makes a lot of sense as I see fonts as being an integrated part of a design.
Most designers avoid this discussion by putting fonts in images or Flash. I
use fonts, because I know that search engines need them and because I like
copy and paste.
Well, anyway, thank you for your comments. I will definitely take them on
board in my future designs.
C
C.W.
None of which are applicable to a browser environment where the reader
is usually sitting closer the monitor than they are the TV.
And don't get me started on packaging or print thoughts after I reamed
out a local grocery store for using itty bitty sized text at the
bottom of their flyer that even the clerks NOR manager could read
without a magnifying glass themselves.
I have glasses already [not by choice - but thanks to genes]. My 21
inch TV does just fine on letting me watch the local news or
television shows that aren't reliant on fonts either when you think
about it. I can even watch those shows on a B/W TV set and not have to
lean forward or squint to make out what is happeneing just because I
happened to be viewing it on a different setting [lack of color]
Why shouldn't my 15inch monitor work just as well for browsing and
reading web sites? Want me to use a larger monitor to read your site
creations on - then you feel free to can buy me one
Right now I prefer my desk top settings for the majority of how I use
my PC - and I see no reason why I should go out and buy a new monitor
or adjust my desktop settings to have you feel happy that you can use
10px or 8px sized fonts on content you expected me to able to read
without leaning way forward or squinting or without "speical
preparations" on my side.
As Richard [rf] said - my hand is never far from the mouse when
surfing so just easier to click on "back" and exit the site than jump
through hoops.
It is not just about people with bad eyesight. Some people with
perfect 20/20 vision have shared thoughts about pixel sized text on
sites being hard to read and irks about the pixel sizing being used
that makes it hard to resize in IE.
No you don't. You just think it does if you are viewing the design
from "everything must look as intended" in terms of it must look like
it does on your side on everyone else's browser. It can still look "as
intended" while allowing the user ease in increasing the text size if
need to be.
You are expecting to people to bend over backwards for your sites in
defense of using pixel sized fonts all throughout the pages of it.
Thereby putting all blame on people not able to read the contents on
the user's shoulders? And you are willing to buy how many folks the
current preferred monitor size for that backbending thought?
It doesn't make sense because so far your argumentation or theory has
been angled solely at your ease and desire to try to present "as if in
print" thoughts on a flexible enviroment [the browser and various
monitor sizes and desktop settings preferences] versus more than one
person's ease thoughts. So far all you have tried to do is defend YOUR
use of pixel sized text and not present really feasible alternatives
to other people happening across one of your site designs outside of
"use a larger monitor".
Carol
W
WindAndWaves
C.W. said:
None of which are applicable to a browser environment where the reader
is usually sitting closer the monitor than they are the TV.
And don't get me started on packaging or print thoughts after I reamed
out a local grocery store for using itty bitty sized text at the
bottom of their flyer that even the clerks NOR manager could read
without a magnifying glass themselves.
I have glasses already [not by choice - but thanks to genes]. My 21
inch TV does just fine on letting me watch the local news or
television shows that aren't reliant on fonts either when you think
about it. I can even watch those shows on a B/W TV set and not have to
lean forward or squint to make out what is happeneing just because I
happened to be viewing it on a different setting [lack of color]
Why shouldn't my 15inch monitor work just as well for browsing and
reading web sites? Want me to use a larger monitor to read your site
creations on - then you feel free to can buy me one
Right now I prefer my desk top settings for the majority of how I use
my PC - and I see no reason why I should go out and buy a new monitor
or adjust my desktop settings to have you feel happy that you can use
10px or 8px sized fonts on content you expected me to able to read
without leaning way forward or squinting or without "speical
preparations" on my side.
As Richard [rf] said - my hand is never far from the mouse when
surfing so just easier to click on "back" and exit the site than jump
through hoops.
It is not just about people with bad eyesight. Some people with
perfect 20/20 vision have shared thoughts about pixel sized text on
sites being hard to read and irks about the pixel sizing being used
that makes it hard to resize in IE.
No you don't. You just think it does if you are viewing the design
from "everything must look as intended" in terms of it must look like
it does on your side on everyone else's browser. It can still look "as
intended" while allowing the user ease in increasing the text size if
need to be.
You are expecting to people to bend over backwards for your sites in
defense of using pixel sized fonts all throughout the pages of it.
Thereby putting all blame on people not able to read the contents on
the user's shoulders? And you are willing to buy how many folks the
current preferred monitor size for that backbending thought?
It doesn't make sense because so far your argumentation or theory has
been angled solely at your ease and desire to try to present "as if in
print" thoughts on a flexible enviroment [the browser and various
monitor sizes and desktop settings preferences] versus more than one
person's ease thoughts. So far all you have tried to do is defend YOUR
use of pixel sized text and not present really feasible alternatives
to other people happening across one of your site designs outside of
"use a larger monitor".
Carol
Thank you for your comments Carol.
Let me ask if anyone finds it annoying, stupid or otherwise that you can not
change the font-size in a PDF - one that you read - not one that you
create(well, at least as far as I know).
You see, I find the PDF concept much nicer than the HTML concept in terms of
resizing.
PDFs can be zoomed from about 10% to about 400% or whatever, point being you
can choose whatever you want and still see the same thing.
If you would go to any site and change the font-size to any size then I am
sure that especially things like dropdown menus, small columns, etc... would
look a little funny.
So my argument in a nutshell: zoom rather than changing only font-size seems
to make more sense. Thereby I acknowledge that in the real world (e.g. LCD
screens, limited options in browsers, etc...) this may not always work. I
dont care about my sites - I can do whatever I want, just like you may do
what pleases you. However, I think, in terms of a technological solution to
the problem that people like to have worse or better eyesight and or viewing
requirements, I think that zooming (in whatever way you may achieve this)
makes fundamentally more sense than font-size increases.
Thank you all for reading and bearing with me....
- Nicolaas