A fable ...

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Joe, Oct 10, 2006.

  1. Joe

    Joe Guest

    I was spouting off the other day, telling someone the "right" (alt.html
    approved) way of doing a navigation menu. The conversation went like
    this:
    ME: '... so your navigation menu is really a list of links and you
    should mark them up like that'
    THEM: '???'
    ME: 'Like in a book, you have the contents page at the front, directing
    you to where you want to go.'
    THEM: 'Oh, you mean the "Table of Contents" '
    ME: (cleverly seeing the trap and deftly avoiding it) 'Sort of, but on
    the web, it's more like a menu at a restaurant.'
    THEM: 'So how would you mark up a restaurant menu then?'
    ME: (thinks)'Bugger'

    Can someone supply me with a happy ending?
     
    Joe, Oct 10, 2006
    #1
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  2. Joe wrote:
    > I was spouting off the other day, telling someone the "right" (alt.html
    > approved) way of doing a navigation menu. The conversation went like
    > this:
    > ME: '... so your navigation menu is really a list of links and you
    > should mark them up like that'
    > THEM: '???'
    > ME: 'Like in a book, you have the contents page at the front, directing
    > you to where you want to go.'
    > THEM: 'Oh, you mean the "Table of Contents" '
    > ME: (cleverly seeing the trap and deftly avoiding it) 'Sort of, but on
    > the web, it's more like a menu at a restaurant.'
    > THEM: 'So how would you mark up a restaurant menu then?'
    > ME: (thinks)'Bugger'
    >
    > Can someone supply me with a happy ending?
    >


    Menus is usually tabular data with two columns, the entrée and the
    price, hence a *table*. Your navigation menu is more like a shopping
    *list* with just a *list* of links to pages on your site.



    --
    Take care,

    Jonathan
    -------------------
    LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
    http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com
     
    Jonathan N. Little, Oct 10, 2006
    #2
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  3. Joe wrote:
    > THEM: 'So how would you mark up a restaurant menu then?'
    > ME: (thinks)'Bugger'
    >
    > Can someone supply me with a happy ending?


    How about:

    <h#>Soups</h#>
    <dl>
    <dt>Human heart soup ($149.99)</dt>
    <dd><p>Perfect for the hardcore cannibal. The broth is blood.</p></dd>
    <dt>Vegetable soup ($3.99)</dt>
    <dd><p>Is the spinach contaminated with E. coli? Only one way to find
    out!</p></dd>
    </dl>

    <h#>Entrees</h#>
    <dl>
    <dt>Greabeadle ($49.99)</dt>
    <dd><p>A great dane stuffed with a beagle stuffed with a poodle. The
    perfect feast!</p></dd>
    <dt>Road kill ($14.99)</dt>
    <dd><p>It's pretty decomposed, but we think it might be a raccoon.</p></dd>
    </dl>
     
    Leif K-Brooks, Oct 10, 2006
    #3
  4. Joe

    Andy Dingley Guest

    Joe wrote:

    > I was spouting off the other day, telling someone the "right" (alt.html
    > approved) way of doing a navigation menu.


    RDF still gets this right and HTML 3.2 used to, until HTML 4 deprecated
    it.

    There are three container structures, which in RDF terms are Bag, Alt
    and Seq.

    A "bag" (an old Smalltalk term) contains a collection of things, and
    that's all it really means. You can have anything in there, and you can
    have more than one of each type (so it's unlike a Set). There's no
    ordering.

    A Seq (sequence) is like a bag, but has ordering too.

    An Alt contains a set of distinct items and one is selectable from
    within this list.

    There's a little wooliness between these terms if you compare them
    between different languages. Some see "identity" and uniqueness as
    being dependent on type, others on instance. Can you put two different
    objects of the same type into a set ?

    In HTML terms, Bag is analogous to <ul>, Seq to <ol> and Alt to the
    now-deprecated <menu>. IMHO, deprecating <menu> was an error in HTML
    4 -- it's not the same thing as <ul> and it was also a useful semantic
    distinction to make clear at the HTML level.
     
    Andy Dingley, Oct 10, 2006
    #4
  5. Joe

    Joe (GKF) Guest

    In article <28a3$452aff6e$40cba7c0$>,
    says...
    > Joe wrote:
    > > I was spouting off the other day, telling someone the "right" (alt.html
    > > approved) way of doing a navigation menu. The conversation went like
    > > this:
    > > ME: '... so your navigation menu is really a list of links and you
    > > should mark them up like that'
    > > THEM: '???'
    > > ME: 'Like in a book, you have the contents page at the front, directing
    > > you to where you want to go.'
    > > THEM: 'Oh, you mean the "Table of Contents" '
    > > ME: (cleverly seeing the trap and deftly avoiding it) 'Sort of, but on
    > > the web, it's more like a menu at a restaurant.'
    > > THEM: 'So how would you mark up a restaurant menu then?'
    > > ME: (thinks)'Bugger'
    > >
    > > Can someone supply me with a happy ending?
    > >

    >
    > Menus is usually tabular data with two columns, the entrée and the
    > price, hence a *table*. Your navigation menu is more like a shopping
    > *list* with just a *list* of links to pages on your site.
    >

    Nice one.
     
    Joe (GKF), Oct 11, 2006
    #5
  6. Joe (GKF) wrote:
    <snip>
    >> Menus is usually tabular data with two columns, the entrée and the
    >> price, hence a *table*. Your navigation menu is more like a shopping
    >> *list* with just a *list* of links to pages on your site.
    >>

    > Nice one.


    I thought so.

    --
    Take care,

    Jonathan
    -------------------
    LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
    http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com
     
    Jonathan N. Little, Oct 11, 2006
    #6
  7. Joe

    Joe (GKF) Guest

    In article <>,
    says...
    >
    > Joe wrote:
    >
    > > I was spouting off the other day, telling someone the "right" (alt.html
    > > approved) way of doing a navigation menu.

    >


    >
    > In HTML terms, Bag is analogous to <ul>, Seq to <ol> and Alt to the
    > now-deprecated <menu>. IMHO, deprecating <menu> was an error in HTML
    > 4 -- it's not the same thing as <ul> and it was also a useful semantic
    > distinction to make clear at the HTML level.
    >
    >

    yes. I thought I was the only person who mourned the passing of "menu".
    It still *works* of course, but I feel guilty if I use it.
     
    Joe (GKF), Oct 12, 2006
    #7
  8. Joe

    Andy Dingley Guest

    Joe (GKF) wrote:

    > yes. I thought I was the only person who mourned the passing of "menu".
    > It still *works* of course, but I feel guilty if I use it.


    It works very nicely on some mobile devices with physical buttons and
    dedicated display screen space for them, where a hardware-aware browser
    can render the title onto / adjacent to the physical button.

    You can do the same by inferring it from id or class values, but that's
    dubious.
     
    Andy Dingley, Oct 12, 2006
    #8
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