a good career choice ?

Discussion in 'Ruby' started by waterinmylungss@gmail.com, Jan 7, 2009.

  1. Guest

    Hello, I am from the USA and I graduated last year with a BS. I've
    been trying to find a job doing HTML and CSS or Flash, but to no
    avail. I know finding a job will be hard, but I want to give myself
    the best chance of success. A couple people that I have talked to
    suggested that I learn Ruby on Rails saying that it was the "future".
    I've spent the past few days reading book tutorials on basic Ruby, and
    it seems like something I could do and enjoy. Would learning RoR be a
    good skill to learn to help me better get a job? If not, then is there
    another language/s that would be good to learn? To any responses -
    thanks in advance.

    -ryan
    , Jan 7, 2009
    #1
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  2. Larz Guest

    What was your BS in ? Are you a CS major ?

    I have a BS in Comp Sci. I did C++ for many years, and was preparing
    to go into Java certification until I found out about Ruby. If you are
    a programmer, I suggest checking out the Java certification books
    which if that doesn't make you sick to your stomach, I don't know what
    will, but Java has been the most popular language though I don't know
    how long that can last and it may be one of those strange things in
    life. I have never learned languages through memorization and testing
    which was a major turn off for me.

    If you web interest is more front end look and feel stuff, I am not
    convinced that you will fall in love with Ruby, but I couldn't say
    either way. It is just as good or better than other technologies, but
    for me it's the language itself.





    On Jan 7, 4:07 am, wrote:
    > Hello, I am from the USA and I graduated last year with a BS. I've
    > been trying to find a job doing HTML and CSS or Flash, but to no
    > avail. I know finding a job will be hard, but I want to give myself
    > the best chance of success. A couple people that I have talked to
    > suggested that I learn Ruby on Rails saying that it was the "future".
    > I've spent the past few days reading book tutorials on basic Ruby, and
    > it seems like something I could do and enjoy. Would learning RoR be a
    > good skill to learn to help me better get a job? If not, then is there
    > another language/s that would be good to learn? To any responses -
    > thanks in advance.
    >
    > -ryan
    Larz, Jan 7, 2009
    #2
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  3. Ron Fox Guest

    Better job? Well what sort of job is your ideal?

    wrote:
    > Hello, I am from the USA and I graduated last year with a BS. I've
    > been trying to find a job doing HTML and CSS or Flash, but to no
    > avail. I know finding a job will be hard, but I want to give myself
    > the best chance of success. A couple people that I have talked to
    > suggested that I learn Ruby on Rails saying that it was the "future".
    > I've spent the past few days reading book tutorials on basic Ruby, and
    > it seems like something I could do and enjoy. Would learning RoR be a
    > good skill to learn to help me better get a job? If not, then is there
    > another language/s that would be good to learn? To any responses -
    > thanks in advance.
    >
    > -ryan



    --
    Ron Fox
    NSCL
    Michigan State University
    East Lansing, MI 48824-1321
    Ron Fox, Jan 7, 2009
    #3
  4. Larz Guest

    I should also say that basicaly Rails makes it easier to hook in
    complex database type of hooks in a well organized programmatic way as
    well as complex URL organization. I said what I did previously because
    I have worked with PHP developers who either where very resistant to
    Rails or just followed managements technology decisions.

    Basically the technologies that compete with Rails are things like
    PHP, Java, and maybe Python. Perl is old and provided much of the
    inspiration for Ruby. Flash is a different technology that can be tied
    into Rails or any of these others, Javascript is a unique browser
    language that also works with any of these. Rails can make certain
    javascript actions much easier to do. PHP is probably easier to learn
    than rails in some ways, but I would say complex web sites in PHP
    evolve into what you can call spaghetti code that becomes harder to
    manage and I consider PHP to be sort of a hack language, but all in
    all it's not that bad. If you find reading about Rails interesting,
    maybe go with that as interesting work can be less stressful.


    On Jan 7, 6:32 am, Larz <> wrote:
    > What was your BS in ? Are you a CS major ?
    >
    > I have a BS in Comp Sci. I did C++ for many years, and was preparing
    > to go into Java certification until I found out about Ruby. If you are
    > a programmer, I suggest checking out the Java certification books
    > which if that doesn't make you sick to your stomach, I don't know what
    > will, but Java has been the most popular language though I don't know
    > how long that can last and it may be one of those strange things in
    > life. I have never learned languages through memorization and testing
    > which was a major turn off for me.
    >
    > If you web interest is more front end look and feel stuff, I am not
    > convinced that you will fall in love with Ruby, but I couldn't say
    > either way. It is just as good or better than other technologies, but
    > for me it's the language itself.
    >
    > On Jan 7, 4:07 am, wrote:
    >
    > > Hello, I am from the USA and I graduated last year with a BS. I've
    > > been trying to find a job doing HTML and CSS or Flash, but to no
    > > avail. I know finding a job will be hard, but I want to give myself
    > > the best chance of success. A couple people that I have talked to
    > > suggested that I learn Ruby on Rails saying that it was the "future".
    > > I've spent the past few days reading book tutorials on basic Ruby, and
    > > it seems like something I could do and enjoy. Would learning RoR be a
    > > good skill to learn to help me better get a job? If not, then is there
    > > another language/s that would be good to learn? To any responses -
    > > thanks in advance.

    >
    > > -ryan
    Larz, Jan 7, 2009
    #4
  5. Aaron Turner Guest

    Hi Ryan,

    Finding a job right now is hard- especially for entry level positions,
    and especially for HTML/CSS work since nowadays the programmers are
    expected to know enough HTML/CSS that the market for dedicated design
    people has dried up for the most part. At least that's what people
    tell me (I'm not really a web/application guy so I don't have any
    direct experience).

    You've got a few choices IMHO:

    1) Learn an up and coming language/solution like Ruby & RoR. You'll
    be competing with fewer people, but there are fewer job opportunities
    as well- but companies will still want some experience.

    2) Learn an established solution like Java and whatever framework is
    popular right now. You'll be competing with more people (many with a
    lot more experience then you will have) but there will be more jobs
    available (most of which will want previous experience).

    My point is pick something, learn it and use it for something. Find
    an open source project or a non-profit to contribute to and be able to
    put that down on your resume and get some people from that
    project/non-profit to be a reference for what a great job you did.
    You might even look around to find an open source project or
    non-profit looking for help first to find out what technology to
    learn.

    In the end, you'll realize that many of the basic concepts are common
    regardless what language/framework you end up learning first. Things
    like MVC, SQL and OO concepts are pretty universal and in general are
    more important to have a solid understanding of then a specific
    language/framework.

    Good luck,
    Aaron

    --
    Aaron Turner
    http://synfin.net/
    http://tcpreplay.synfin.net/ - Pcap editing and replay tools for Unix & Windows
    They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
    safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -- Benjamin Franklin



    On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 1:12 AM, <> wrote:
    > Hello, I am from the USA and I graduated last year with a BS. I've
    > been trying to find a job doing HTML and CSS or Flash, but to no
    > avail. I know finding a job will be hard, but I want to give myself
    > the best chance of success. A couple people that I have talked to
    > suggested that I learn Ruby on Rails saying that it was the "future".
    > I've spent the past few days reading book tutorials on basic Ruby, and
    > it seems like something I could do and enjoy. Would learning RoR be a
    > good skill to learn to help me better get a job? If not, then is there
    > another language/s that would be good to learn? To any responses -
    > thanks in advance.
    >
    > -ryan
    >
    >
    Aaron Turner, Jan 7, 2009
    #5
  6. Tim Greer Guest

    Larz wrote:

    > Perl is old and provided much of the
    > inspiration for Ruby.


    In response to that, C and C++ are older than Perl and are always going
    to be around and popular (and well used), as is Perl. Perl provided
    the inspiration for PHP (being embedding Perl code in a web page, is
    how PHP came about). It is really hit and miss, some jobs might want
    you to know Ruby, or RoR, or C, or C++, or Java, or Perl, or VB, or
    Python, or something completely different. I'm not saying you're
    suggesting "Perl is old, so it's not popular" or something, but I've
    seen people suggest that, which isn't the case.
    --
    Tim Greer, CEO/Founder/CTO, BurlyHost.com, Inc.
    Shared Hosting, Reseller Hosting, Dedicated & Semi-Dedicated servers
    and Custom Hosting. 24/7 support, 30 day guarantee, secure servers.
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    Tim Greer, Jan 7, 2009
    #6
  7. Larz Guest

    On Jan 7, 1:52 pm, Tim Greer <> wrote:
    > Larz wrote:
    > > Perl is old and provided much of the
    > > inspiration for Ruby.

    >
    > In response to that, C and C++ are older than Perl and are always going
    > to be around and popular (and well used), as is Perl.  Perl provided
    > the inspiration for PHP (being embedding Perl code in a web page, is
    > how PHP came about).  It is really hit and miss, some jobs might want
    > you to know Ruby, or RoR, or C, or C++, or Java, or Perl, or VB, or
    > Python, or something completely different.  I'm not saying you're
    > suggesting "Perl is old, so it's not popular" or something, but I've
    > seen people suggest that, which isn't the case.
    > --


    There are some perl modules around that maybe do some things ruby
    doesn't do, but Ruby is a dynamic language like Perl. C, C++ are
    compiled and usefull for embedded dev and many other things ..

    There's always many jobs in older technology for a long time until it
    fades away eventually the way of fortran etc. The efficiency factor
    may be unsatisfactory ..
    Larz, Jan 8, 2009
    #7
  8. Tim Greer Guest

    Larz wrote:

    > On Jan 7, 1:52 pm, Tim Greer <> wrote:
    >> Larz wrote:
    >> > Perl is old and provided much of the
    >> > inspiration for Ruby.

    >>
    >> In response to that, C and C++ are older than Perl and are always
    >> going to be around and popular (and well used), as is Perl.  Perl
    >> provided the inspiration for PHP (being embedding Perl code in a web
    >> page, is how PHP came about).  It is really hit and miss, some jobs
    >> might want you to know Ruby, or RoR, or C, or C++, or Java, or Perl,
    >> or VB, or Python, or something completely different.  I'm not saying
    >> you're suggesting "Perl is old, so it's not popular" or something,
    >> but I've seen people suggest that, which isn't the case.
    >> --

    >
    > There are some perl modules around that maybe do some things ruby
    > doesn't do, but Ruby is a dynamic language like Perl. C, C++ are
    > compiled and usefull for embedded dev and many other things ..
    >
    > There's always many jobs in older technology for a long time until it
    > fades away eventually the way of fortran etc. The efficiency factor
    > may be unsatisfactory ..


    At this point, most language debates come down to opinion and
    assumption. I don't believe that Perl is an old language that's going
    to fade away, while ruby becomes more popular. But, that's just my own
    view/opinion. I wasn't saying it because it's more mature and has some
    existing modules that maybe don't exist for Ruby or anything. I might
    be wrong about how in demand Perl will or will not be, just like my
    opinion abut ruby and other languages. Neither opinion will make it
    more or less likely, so we'll all have to see. Just remember, there
    are plenty of new jobs in Perl, too (not just older code people are
    hired to maintain).
    --
    Tim Greer, CEO/Founder/CTO, BurlyHost.com, Inc.
    Shared Hosting, Reseller Hosting, Dedicated & Semi-Dedicated servers
    and Custom Hosting. 24/7 support, 30 day guarantee, secure servers.
    Industry's most experienced staff! -- Web Hosting With Muscle!
    Tim Greer, Jan 8, 2009
    #8
  9. Larz Guest

    >
    > At this point, most language debates come down to opinion and
    > assumption. I don't believe that Perl is an old language that's going
    > to fade away, while ruby becomes more popular. But, that's just my own
    > view/opinion. I wasn't saying it because it's more mature and has some
    > existing modules that maybe don't exist for Ruby or anything. I might
    > be wrong about how in demand Perl will or will not be, just like my
    > opinion abut ruby and other languages. Neither opinion will make it
    > more or less likely, so we'll all have to see. Just remember, there
    > are plenty of new jobs in Perl, too (not just older code people are
    > hired to maintain).
    > --


    There will be work in perl for many years no doubt, before I found
    out about ruby I had many perl books and was up in the air if I'd
    rather look for work in Java or Perl, but I would characterize perl
    this way:


    There's programmers who like to believe ruby is just hype and some
    sort of cult and don't want to spend the time to learn something new
    or even just find out about it, they have a strong attachment to what
    they already know.

    There are many people who have no interest in learning anything new
    if they have to spend their own time and money studying it. They will
    only learn new things if the company tells them to or sends them to a
    class, or maybe if they are desperate and need to find a job.

    Managers who see training people in new things or asking them to
    learn new things as something of a problem .. They want to hire people
    who have all the skills they need and try to stick with whatever skill
    sets their workers already have. People trying to advocate new
    technology may be ostracized. I worked with a number of people who
    refused to learn perl and wanted to do everything with shell scripts,
    and they wrote giant unwieldy ugly shell scripts that where totally
    laughable, and yet management accepted their lame explanations of why
    it would take them several weeks to get some project to work
    correctly. I could not say anything to the contrary as it was all
    political and I would have gotten in trouble.

    Then there are sysadmins who write an occasional perl script and have
    no real incentive to go beyond that, that may be fairly understandable
    as long as they don't have to develop alot of large apps.

    So there maybe alot of legacy perl code out there, and all of the
    people mentioned above are not really programmers who have their heart
    in programming enough to want to use the best technology and try to
    excel towards excellence in development based on object oriented
    programming and paradign that's validity can't be denied, though they
    will try to anyway.

    Sometimes you are stuck on a machine that the admins won't let you
    install what you want to use, but other than that I would never want
    to work at a company that wanted to develop some new app in perl.

    If the economy was to be so bad that you had to learn old technology
    to get a job, that would seem sad, though the IT industry has all
    kinds of ups and downs. One year you might hear college students are
    shying away from CS because of the poor IT sector, a few years later
    they'll say IT jobs are the future ..
    Larz, Jan 9, 2009
    #9
  10. Tim Greer Guest

    Larz wrote:

    >>
    >> At this point, most language debates come down to opinion and
    >> assumption. I don't believe that Perl is an old language that's
    >> going
    >> to fade away, while ruby becomes more popular. But, that's just my
    >> own
    >> view/opinion. I wasn't saying it because it's more mature and has
    >> some
    >> existing modules that maybe don't exist for Ruby or anything. I
    >> might be wrong about how in demand Perl will or will not be, just
    >> like my
    >> opinion abut ruby and other languages. Neither opinion will make it
    >> more or less likely, so we'll all have to see. Just remember, there
    >> are plenty of new jobs in Perl, too (not just older code people are
    >> hired to maintain).
    >> --

    >
    > There will be work in perl for many years no doubt, before I found
    > out about ruby I had many perl books and was up in the air if I'd
    > rather look for work in Java or Perl, but I would characterize perl
    > this way:
    >
    >
    > There's programmers who like to believe ruby is just hype and some
    > sort of cult and don't want to spend the time to learn something new
    > or even just find out about it, they have a strong attachment to what
    > they already know.
    >
    > There are many people who have no interest in learning anything new
    > if they have to spend their own time and money studying it. They will
    > only learn new things if the company tells them to or sends them to a
    > class, or maybe if they are desperate and need to find a job.
    >
    > Managers who see training people in new things or asking them to
    > learn new things as something of a problem .. They want to hire people
    > who have all the skills they need and try to stick with whatever skill
    > sets their workers already have. People trying to advocate new
    > technology may be ostracized. I worked with a number of people who
    > refused to learn perl and wanted to do everything with shell scripts,
    > and they wrote giant unwieldy ugly shell scripts that where totally
    > laughable, and yet management accepted their lame explanations of why
    > it would take them several weeks to get some project to work
    > correctly. I could not say anything to the contrary as it was all
    > political and I would have gotten in trouble.
    >
    > Then there are sysadmins who write an occasional perl script and have
    > no real incentive to go beyond that, that may be fairly understandable
    > as long as they don't have to develop alot of large apps.
    >
    > So there maybe alot of legacy perl code out there, and all of the
    > people mentioned above are not really programmers who have their heart
    > in programming enough to want to use the best technology and try to
    > excel towards excellence in development based on object oriented
    > programming and paradign that's validity can't be denied, though they
    > will try to anyway.
    >
    > Sometimes you are stuck on a machine that the admins won't let you
    > install what you want to use, but other than that I would never want
    > to work at a company that wanted to develop some new app in perl.
    >
    > If the economy was to be so bad that you had to learn old technology
    > to get a job, that would seem sad, though the IT industry has all
    > kinds of ups and downs. One year you might hear college students are
    > shying away from CS because of the poor IT sector, a few years later
    > they'll say IT jobs are the future ..


    Your entire response is based on your own opinions. I don't recall care
    if people like is dislike any certain language, but just like saying
    people in other languages claim ruby is all hype, there are those that
    buy into the claim that languages like Perl are fading away --
    especially when you say things like "I would never want to work at a
    company that wanted to develop some new app in perl." That's
    preposterous. You can replace Perl in that sentence with PHP, C, C++,
    Python, Java, etc. It's all personal view.

    In fact, one could say the same thing about another language and use
    "ruby" in the example of "never wanting to work at a company that uses
    ruby". The passion, ignorance and arrogance regarding "language wars"
    goes both ways. It's pretty short sighted to call Perl "old
    technology" because you happen to like Ruby more. I don't know why
    people can't be more reasonable and less biased. I prefer Perl, but
    I'm not here talking badly about ruby -- I'm here because I use it,
    too. Therefore, there's no reason to get defensive or think you need
    to slam another language. Perl is hardly old, just because it's older.
    Ruby has been around for a very long time as well, so I guess by your
    logic, it's technically ran its course, too?

    Seriously, who cares? No one said the OP should learn Perl instead of
    ruby, and of course there will be support and bias toward ruby, since
    this is a ruby group. It's all about choice and preference. If you
    want to get down to the base of the debate that appears to have evolved
    from the question (big surprise there), then people shouldn't be
    encouraged to use a different language just because someone else finds
    it interesting, or because it is newer (that doesn't make it better).
    That's usually the reason why, and people shouldn't drop the idea of
    developing a project in languages they know well, just to code in a
    newer language someone else is excited about. The project should be
    coded the most efficient, secure and stable as possible, which means
    sticking to what you know. If you know ruby better, use ruby. If you
    have the time and find ruby interesting, learn it anyway. It never
    hurts to get good at something you might not be good at now (in which
    case a lot of people could actually benefit from learning Perl, or PHP,
    or Java, if they know ruby and have the desire and motivation to learn
    something else).

    As for legacy code, there are a lot of languages that have legacy code,
    some not very good -- and that includes ruby. Some people can code
    well and some can not. Some people abandon code and some do not. I
    really fail to see how one has to do with another. If you like heavy
    OO type programming languages, then yeah, ruby would probably suit you
    better than Perl or PHP. If you don't agree or don't care, then there
    are a lot of other languages that work equally as well, which aren't
    going anywhere. In closing, check the statistics and there are a lot
    more larger sites that most people online use daily that are developed
    in Perl (yes, new code developed today and more yesterday), being so
    much for your theory that you'd not work for any company that developed
    new applications in Perl. You may as well denounce any new
    applications coded in Python, PHP, C, C++, Java, too. I get it, you
    like ruby, you don't care for Perl, that's fine with me, but keep the
    claims on level and fair. There's no anti-ruby witch hunting in this
    thread, so practice what you preach. Since no one's coming up with
    untrue reasons why ruby isn't for them, why state your opinion about
    Perl as being factual? Don't be so closed minded that you trash talk
    languages you don't agree with, because it makes you no better than the
    Perl programmers you mention whom unfairly trash talk ruby. They are
    both good languages and neither are going anywhere.
    --
    Tim Greer, CEO/Founder/CTO, BurlyHost.com, Inc.
    Shared Hosting, Reseller Hosting, Dedicated & Semi-Dedicated servers
    and Custom Hosting. 24/7 support, 30 day guarantee, secure servers.
    Industry's most experienced staff! -- Web Hosting With Muscle!
    Tim Greer, Jan 9, 2009
    #10
  11. Tim Greer Guest

    Tim Greer wrote:

    > Your entire response is based on your own opinions.  I don't recall
    > care if people like is dislike any certain language,


    Wow, I can't type at all today.

    That should say "I don't really care if people like or dislike"... guh.
    --
    Tim Greer, CEO/Founder/CTO, BurlyHost.com, Inc.
    Shared Hosting, Reseller Hosting, Dedicated & Semi-Dedicated servers
    and Custom Hosting. 24/7 support, 30 day guarantee, secure servers.
    Industry's most experienced staff! -- Web Hosting With Muscle!
    Tim Greer, Jan 9, 2009
    #11
  12. Larz Guest

    > Your entire response is based on your own opinions. I don't recall care
    > if people like is dislike any certain language, but just like saying
    > people in other languages claim ruby is all hype, there are those that
    > buy into the claim that languages like Perl are fading away --
    > especially when you say things like "I would never want to work at a
    > company that wanted to develop some new app in perl." That's
    > preposterous. You can replace Perl in that sentence with PHP, C, C++,
    > Python, Java, etc. It's all personal view.


    It's my opinion when I am an employee, when management makes a
    decision, then it's not just an opinion, it's what you get stuck
    with.

    >
    > In fact, one could say the same thing about another language and use
    > "ruby" in the example of "never wanting to work at a company that uses
    > ruby". The passion, ignorance and arrogance regarding "language wars"
    > goes both ways. It's pretty short sighted to call Perl "old
    > technology" because you happen to like Ruby more. I don't know why
    > people can't be more reasonable and less biased. I prefer Perl, but
    > I'm not here talking badly about ruby -- I'm here because I use it,
    > too. Therefore, there's no reason to get defensive or think you need
    > to slam another language. Perl is hardly old, just because it's older.
    > Ruby has been around for a very long time as well, so I guess by your
    > logic, it's technically ran its course, too?


    It's only old because object oriented programming is an important
    modern paradigm. I look it maybe like archery is old, guns are newer.
    That maybe not a good example because I like archery, but in a real
    war you'd have to go with a gun. OO enables you to write larger apps
    that fit together more easily if you design the app correctly. Some
    languages are older in that sense, but maybe it's not worth arguing
    about as if you are a programmer you might be biased and many people
    are ..




    > Seriously, who cares? No one said the OP should learn Perl instead of
    > ruby, and of course there will be support and bias toward ruby, since
    > this is a ruby group. It's all about choice and preference. If you
    > want to get down to the base of the debate that appears to have evolved
    > from the question (big surprise there), then people shouldn't be
    > encouraged to use a different language just because someone else finds
    > it interesting, or because it is newer (that doesn't make it better).
    > That's usually the reason why, and people shouldn't drop the idea of
    > developing a project in languages they know well, just to code in a
    > newer language someone else is excited about. The project should be
    > coded the most efficient, secure and stable as possible, which means
    > sticking to what you know. If you know ruby better, use ruby. If you
    > have the time and find ruby interesting, learn it anyway. It never
    > hurts to get good at something you might not be good at now (in which
    > case a lot of people could actually benefit from learning Perl, or PHP,
    > or Java, if they know ruby and have the desire and motivation to learn
    > something else).


    I can't argue with that except everyone may have their own agenda. You
    might find it frustrating to learn something newer, but it's not just
    newer in that it was just invented, presumably languages are
    advancing ..




    > As for legacy code, there are a lot of languages that have legacy code,
    > some not very good -- and that includes ruby. Some people can code
    > well and some can not. Some people abandon code and some do not. I
    > really fail to see how one has to do with another. If you like heavy
    > OO type programming languages, then yeah, ruby would probably suit you
    > better than Perl or PHP. If you don't agree or don't care, then there
    > are a lot of other languages that work equally as well, which aren't
    > going anywhere. In closing, check the statistics and there are a lot
    > more larger sites that most people online use daily that are developed
    > in Perl (yes, new code developed today and more yesterday), being so
    > much for your theory that you'd not work for any company that developed
    > new applications in Perl. You may as well denounce any new
    > applications coded in Python, PHP, C, C++, Java, too.


    C, C++ are well suited for embedded and compiled apps, Java has it's
    place as well.


    > I get it, you
    > like ruby, you don't care for Perl, that's fine with me, but keep the
    > claims on level and fair. There's no anti-ruby witch hunting in this
    > thread, so practice what you preach. Since no one's coming up with
    > untrue reasons why ruby isn't for them, why state your opinion about
    > Perl as being factual? Don't be so closed minded that you trash talk
    > languages you don't agree with, because it makes you no better than the
    > Perl programmers you mention whom unfairly trash talk ruby. They are
    > both good languages and neither are going anywhere.


    There are no doubt some highly talented and smart people that use
    Perl, it's not that perl is irrelevant, I didn't say that. Ruby will
    someday peak out as well ..
    Larz, Jan 9, 2009
    #12
  13. List.rb Guest

    Too long, didn't read



    On Jan 8, 2009, at 9:19 PM, Tim Greer <> wrote:

    > Larz wrote:
    >
    >>>
    >>> At this point, most language debates come down to opinion and
    >>> assumption. I don't believe that Perl is an old language that's
    >>> going
    >>> to fade away, while ruby becomes more popular. But, that's just my
    >>> own
    >>> view/opinion. I wasn't saying it because it's more mature and has
    >>> some
    >>> existing modules that maybe don't exist for Ruby or anything. I
    >>> might be wrong about how in demand Perl will or will not be, just
    >>> like my
    >>> opinion abut ruby and other languages. Neither opinion will make it
    >>> more or less likely, so we'll all have to see. Just remember, there
    >>> are plenty of new jobs in Perl, too (not just older code people are
    >>> hired to maintain).
    >>> --

    >>
    >> There will be work in perl for many years no doubt, before I found
    >> out about ruby I had many perl books and was up in the air if I'd
    >> rather look for work in Java or Perl, but I would characterize perl
    >> this way:
    >>
    >>
    >> There's programmers who like to believe ruby is just hype and some
    >> sort of cult and don't want to spend the time to learn something new
    >> or even just find out about it, they have a strong attachment to what
    >> they already know.
    >>
    >> There are many people who have no interest in learning anything new
    >> if they have to spend their own time and money studying it. They will
    >> only learn new things if the company tells them to or sends them to a
    >> class, or maybe if they are desperate and need to find a job.
    >>
    >> Managers who see training people in new things or asking them to
    >> learn new things as something of a problem .. They want to hire
    >> people
    >> who have all the skills they need and try to stick with whatever
    >> skill
    >> sets their workers already have. People trying to advocate new
    >> technology may be ostracized. I worked with a number of people who
    >> refused to learn perl and wanted to do everything with shell scripts,
    >> and they wrote giant unwieldy ugly shell scripts that where totally
    >> laughable, and yet management accepted their lame explanations of why
    >> it would take them several weeks to get some project to work
    >> correctly. I could not say anything to the contrary as it was all
    >> political and I would have gotten in trouble.
    >>
    >> Then there are sysadmins who write an occasional perl script and have
    >> no real incentive to go beyond that, that may be fairly
    >> understandable
    >> as long as they don't have to develop alot of large apps.
    >>
    >> So there maybe alot of legacy perl code out there, and all of the
    >> people mentioned above are not really programmers who have their
    >> heart
    >> in programming enough to want to use the best technology and try to
    >> excel towards excellence in development based on object oriented
    >> programming and paradign that's validity can't be denied, though they
    >> will try to anyway.
    >>
    >> Sometimes you are stuck on a machine that the admins won't let you
    >> install what you want to use, but other than that I would never want
    >> to work at a company that wanted to develop some new app in perl.
    >>
    >> If the economy was to be so bad that you had to learn old technology
    >> to get a job, that would seem sad, though the IT industry has all
    >> kinds of ups and downs. One year you might hear college students are
    >> shying away from CS because of the poor IT sector, a few years later
    >> they'll say IT jobs are the future ..

    >
    > Your entire response is based on your own opinions. I don't recall
    > care
    > if people like is dislike any certain language, but just like saying
    > people in other languages claim ruby is all hype, there are those that
    > buy into the claim that languages like Perl are fading away --
    > especially when you say things like "I would never want to work at a
    > company that wanted to develop some new app in perl." That's
    > preposterous. You can replace Perl in that sentence with PHP, C, C++,
    > Python, Java, etc. It's all personal view.
    >
    > In fact, one could say the same thing about another language and use
    > "ruby" in the example of "never wanting to work at a company that uses
    > ruby". The passion, ignorance and arrogance regarding "language wars"
    > goes both ways. It's pretty short sighted to call Perl "old
    > technology" because you happen to like Ruby more. I don't know why
    > people can't be more reasonable and less biased. I prefer Perl, but
    > I'm not here talking badly about ruby -- I'm here because I use it,
    > too. Therefore, there's no reason to get defensive or think you need
    > to slam another language. Perl is hardly old, just because it's
    > older.
    > Ruby has been around for a very long time as well, so I guess by your
    > logic, it's technically ran its course, too?
    >
    > Seriously, who cares? No one said the OP should learn Perl instead of
    > ruby, and of course there will be support and bias toward ruby, since
    > this is a ruby group. It's all about choice and preference. If you
    > want to get down to the base of the debate that appears to have
    > evolved
    > from the question (big surprise there), then people shouldn't be
    > encouraged to use a different language just because someone else finds
    > it interesting, or because it is newer (that doesn't make it better).
    > That's usually the reason why, and people shouldn't drop the idea of
    > developing a project in languages they know well, just to code in a
    > newer language someone else is excited about. The project should be
    > coded the most efficient, secure and stable as possible, which means
    > sticking to what you know. If you know ruby better, use ruby. If you
    > have the time and find ruby interesting, learn it anyway. It never
    > hurts to get good at something you might not be good at now (in which
    > case a lot of people could actually benefit from learning Perl, or
    > PHP,
    > or Java, if they know ruby and have the desire and motivation to learn
    > something else).
    >
    > As for legacy code, there are a lot of languages that have legacy
    > code,
    > some not very good -- and that includes ruby. Some people can code
    > well and some can not. Some people abandon code and some do not. I
    > really fail to see how one has to do with another. If you like heavy
    > OO type programming languages, then yeah, ruby would probably suit you
    > better than Perl or PHP. If you don't agree or don't care, then there
    > are a lot of other languages that work equally as well, which aren't
    > going anywhere. In closing, check the statistics and there are a lot
    > more larger sites that most people online use daily that are developed
    > in Perl (yes, new code developed today and more yesterday), being so
    > much for your theory that you'd not work for any company that
    > developed
    > new applications in Perl. You may as well denounce any new
    > applications coded in Python, PHP, C, C++, Java, too. I get it, you
    > like ruby, you don't care for Perl, that's fine with me, but keep the
    > claims on level and fair. There's no anti-ruby witch hunting in this
    > thread, so practice what you preach. Since no one's coming up with
    > untrue reasons why ruby isn't for them, why state your opinion about
    > Perl as being factual? Don't be so closed minded that you trash talk
    > languages you don't agree with, because it makes you no better than
    > the
    > Perl programmers you mention whom unfairly trash talk ruby. They are
    > both good languages and neither are going anywhere.
    > --
    > Tim Greer, CEO/Founder/CTO, BurlyHost.com, Inc.
    > Shared Hosting, Reseller Hosting, Dedicated & Semi-Dedicated servers
    > and Custom Hosting. 24/7 support, 30 day guarantee, secure servers.
    > Industry's most experienced staff! -- Web Hosting With Muscle!
    >
    List.rb, Jan 9, 2009
    #13
  14. Tim Greer Guest

    Larz wrote:

    >> Your entire response is based on your own opinions. I don't recall
    >> care if people like is dislike any certain language, but just like
    >> saying people in other languages claim ruby is all hype, there are
    >> those that buy into the claim that languages like Perl are fading
    >> away -- especially when you say things like "I would never want to
    >> work at a
    >> company that wanted to develop some new app in perl." That's
    >> preposterous. You can replace Perl in that sentence with PHP, C,
    >> C++,
    >> Python, Java, etc. It's all personal view.

    >
    > It's my opinion when I am an employee, when management makes a
    > decision, then it's not just an opinion, it's what you get stuck
    > with.


    You said you wouldn't want to work with a company that developed new
    applications in Perl. That has nothing to do with management, it has
    to do with your opinion about Perl. That's fine, but you used it as a
    basis to say Perl was old technology.

    >>
    >> In fact, one could say the same thing about another language and use
    >> "ruby" in the example of "never wanting to work at a company that
    >> uses
    >> ruby". The passion, ignorance and arrogance regarding "language
    >> wars"
    >> goes both ways. It's pretty short sighted to call Perl "old
    >> technology" because you happen to like Ruby more. I don't know why
    >> people can't be more reasonable and less biased. I prefer Perl, but
    >> I'm not here talking badly about ruby -- I'm here because I use it,
    >> too. Therefore, there's no reason to get defensive or think you need
    >> to slam another language. Perl is hardly old, just because it's
    >> older. Ruby has been around for a very long time as well, so I guess
    >> by your logic, it's technically ran its course, too?

    >
    > It's only old because object oriented programming is an important
    > modern paradigm.


    OO existed before Perl, before PHP, before Python, Java, Ruby, etc. Not
    everything needs to be OO to be modern or worth using.

    > I look it maybe like archery is old, guns are newer.


    That's a poor analogy.

    > That maybe not a good example because I like archery, but in a real
    > war you'd have to go with a gun.


    Then we're talking about different gun brands. They all shoot.

    > OO enables you to write larger apps
    > that fit together more easily if you design the app correctly.


    And if you design correctly, it doesn't have to be OO to fit together
    easily. Of course, I'm not debating the merits of OO. I even said if
    you want OO, ruby is a better choice than Perl. So, what's the
    argument about?

    > Some
    > languages are older in that sense, but maybe it's not worth arguing
    > about as if you are a programmer you might be biased and many people
    > are ..


    Everyone's "biased" to their own opinions. You're biased about yours.
    I'm actually not being biased. Factually, ruby is better for OO. You
    act like Perl is old news. It's always being developed. I'm not
    trying to sell you on it, I don't care, but it's a falsehood to claim
    it's some old technology that's a mistake to code in. That's
    ridiculous. To you, it's not a good fit, that's fine. Why not just
    say that, instead of acting like your view is absolute?

    >
    >
    >> Seriously, who cares? No one said the OP should learn Perl instead
    >> of ruby, and of course there will be support and bias toward ruby,
    >> since
    >> this is a ruby group. It's all about choice and preference. If you
    >> want to get down to the base of the debate that appears to have
    >> evolved from the question (big surprise there), then people shouldn't
    >> be encouraged to use a different language just because someone else
    >> finds it interesting, or because it is newer (that doesn't make it
    >> better). That's usually the reason why, and people shouldn't drop the
    >> idea of developing a project in languages they know well, just to
    >> code in a
    >> newer language someone else is excited about. The project should be
    >> coded the most efficient, secure and stable as possible, which means
    >> sticking to what you know. If you know ruby better, use ruby. If
    >> you
    >> have the time and find ruby interesting, learn it anyway. It never
    >> hurts to get good at something you might not be good at now (in which
    >> case a lot of people could actually benefit from learning Perl, or
    >> PHP, or Java, if they know ruby and have the desire and motivation to
    >> learn something else).

    >
    > I can't argue with that except everyone may have their own agenda.


    They may, and may not.

    > You
    > might find it frustrating to learn something newer,


    No, I don't.

    > but it's not just
    > newer in that it was just invented, presumably languages are
    > advancing ..


    And Perl 6 is being developed as we speak. Ruby is also being
    developed. They are both alive.


    >
    >> As for legacy code, there are a lot of languages that have legacy
    >> code,
    >> some not very good -- and that includes ruby. Some people can code
    >> well and some can not. Some people abandon code and some do not. I
    >> really fail to see how one has to do with another. If you like heavy
    >> OO type programming languages, then yeah, ruby would probably suit
    >> you
    >> better than Perl or PHP. If you don't agree or don't care, then
    >> there are a lot of other languages that work equally as well, which
    >> aren't
    >> going anywhere. In closing, check the statistics and there are a lot
    >> more larger sites that most people online use daily that are
    >> developed in Perl (yes, new code developed today and more yesterday),
    >> being so much for your theory that you'd not work for any company
    >> that developed
    >> new applications in Perl. You may as well denounce any new
    >> applications coded in Python, PHP, C, C++, Java, too.

    >
    > C, C++ are well suited for embedded and compiled apps, Java has it's
    > place as well.


    As ruby has its place, as PHP as its place, as Python has its place.

    >> I get it, you
    >> like ruby, you don't care for Perl, that's fine with me, but keep the
    >> claims on level and fair. There's no anti-ruby witch hunting in this
    >> thread, so practice what you preach. Since no one's coming up with
    >> untrue reasons why ruby isn't for them, why state your opinion about
    >> Perl as being factual? Don't be so closed minded that you trash talk
    >> languages you don't agree with, because it makes you no better than
    >> the
    >> Perl programmers you mention whom unfairly trash talk ruby. They are
    >> both good languages and neither are going anywhere.

    >
    > There are no doubt some highly talented and smart people that use
    > Perl, it's not that perl is irrelevant, I didn't say that. Ruby will
    > someday peak out as well ..


    Okay, fair enough. I got the impression you were making a claim that
    Perl is on a definite and indefinite downturn, as if it as some old
    archaic language that people shouldn't waste time with, and should
    instead use ruby. I apologize if I misunderstood your intent or
    meaning.
    --
    Tim Greer, CEO/Founder/CTO, BurlyHost.com, Inc.
    Shared Hosting, Reseller Hosting, Dedicated & Semi-Dedicated servers
    and Custom Hosting. 24/7 support, 30 day guarantee, secure servers.
    Industry's most experienced staff! -- Web Hosting With Muscle!
    Tim Greer, Jan 9, 2009
    #14
  15. Tim Greer Guest

    List.rb wrote:

    > Too long, didn't read
    >


    So, you "top post" in reply and quote the entire text that was "too long
    to read"? Thanks for the sarcastic contribution, especially in
    response to something you didn't bother reading. I wonder why someone
    not interested in reading, is on a usenet group that the posts are in
    text?
    --
    Tim Greer, CEO/Founder/CTO, BurlyHost.com, Inc.
    Shared Hosting, Reseller Hosting, Dedicated & Semi-Dedicated servers
    and Custom Hosting. 24/7 support, 30 day guarantee, secure servers.
    Industry's most experienced staff! -- Web Hosting With Muscle!
    Tim Greer, Jan 9, 2009
    #15
  16. Randy Kramer Guest

    On Thursday 08 January 2009 10:13 pm, List.rb wrote:
    > Too long, didn't read


    Well, I'm glad you quoted the whole thing, at least. ;-)

    Randy Kramer
    --
    I didn't have time to write a short letter, so I created a video
    instead.--with apologies to Cicero, et.al.
    Randy Kramer, Jan 9, 2009
    #16
  17. Ilan Berci Guest

    unknown wrote:
    > Hello, I am from the USA and I graduated last year with a BS. I've
    > been trying to find a job doing HTML and CSS or Flash, but to no
    > avail. I know finding a job will be hard, but I want to give myself
    > the best chance of success.



    Ryan,

    I feel for you, I had a similar situation in '93 during a recession. I
    had a Mech Eng degree and no chance in h*ll of getting a job as everyone
    was laying off. I just bit the bullet, dropped mechanical and agreed to
    write assembly for RISC chips which was incredibly boring but at least
    it was a job. At that time it was an easier market to break into and I
    had to stick with it for 2-3 years before I branched into C++ (for about
    10 years), java, and then finally Ruby..

    I have interviewed many candidates and if they have ever contributed to
    open source projects then I am pretty confident about getting them on
    board. Most companies just want a self reliant adaptable go-getter that
    works well within teams and if you worked on open source then you
    already have everything they want.

    hth and keep your head up as it was really easy to get discouraged..

    Another option is to wait out the recession while doing your masters..
    No matter what they tell you, it won't hurt your possibility of landing
    a gig.

    Ohh.. check your local job listings to see the hot languages in your
    area but safer still is to learn the languages that you enjoy as that
    aspect will come across in your interviews..

    join linkedin.. very good service..

    keep your resume brief and mention the buzzwords to get through the HR
    round.

    ilan



    --
    Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
    Ilan Berci, Jan 12, 2009
    #17
  18. Tim Greer wrote:
    > I got the impression you were making a claim that
    > Perl is [...] some old archaic language that people
    > shouldn't waste time with


    13 years ago I was programming in Perl (v5). I loved it. Until I had to
    return a file handle from a function.
    --
    Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
    Albert Schlef, Jan 12, 2009
    #18
  19. Tim Greer Guest

    Albert Schlef wrote:

    > Tim Greer wrote:
    >> I got the impression you were making a claim that
    >> Perl is [...] some old archaic language that people
    >> shouldn't waste time with

    >
    > 13 years ago I was programming in Perl (v5). I loved it. Until I had
    > to return a file handle from a function.


    Honestly, I'm okay with people not liking one language over another. As
    for returning a file handle from a function, you could do that, but
    maybe it was not a method you agreed with using (or maybe you weren't
    sure how)? Anyway, if any language doesn't do what someone wants (or
    how they want), I can very much see their reasons for using one that
    agrees with them more. That's totally cool with me.
    --
    Tim Greer, CEO/Founder/CTO, BurlyHost.com, Inc.
    Shared Hosting, Reseller Hosting, Dedicated & Semi-Dedicated servers
    and Custom Hosting. 24/7 support, 30 day guarantee, secure servers.
    Industry's most experienced staff! -- Web Hosting With Muscle!
    Tim Greer, Jan 12, 2009
    #19
  20. Tim Greer wrote:
    > Albert Schlef wrote:
    >
    >> Tim Greer wrote:
    >>> I got the impression you were making a claim that
    >>> Perl is [...] some old archaic language that people
    >>> shouldn't waste time with

    >>
    >> 13 years ago I was programming in Perl (v5). I loved it. Until I had
    >> to return a file handle from a function.

    >

    [...]
    > As for returning a file handle from a function, you could do that, but
    > maybe it was not a method you agreed with using


    I was referring to the \*HANDLE syntax. I didn't understand it. At that
    time it was important for me to understand exactly what was happening
    under the hood because I was trying to use Perl as a study aid for an
    Operating System course. I didn't want my file handles dup(2)licating
    around. The manual page gave this syntax as some "voodoo".

    Same story for Perl's OO. I wasn't a big fun of this methodology back
    then, but many libraries used it so I had to understand what happens
    under the hood to really master this language. There wasn't any material
    on the net explaining how Perl implements its OO. That's very different
    from Ruby, where you can find diagrams explaining exactly how its OO is
    implemented.

    When I read some parts of Perl's man pages I get the feeling they wink
    at me saying "ha ha! ha ha! use this syntax. Why? Oh, that's complicate
    to explain. Tim knows, Tim knows. Or buy the Holy book of the Camel, the
    masters are explaining it there. ha ha!"

    They even discourage you from looking at Perl's source code. "Beware all
    ye who enter here". "There's no BNF, just paw your way through the...".
    That's very different from Ruby where I, a relative newbie, can easily
    read its source code and benefit from it.
    --
    Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
    Albert Schlef, Jan 13, 2009
    #20
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