A matter of being polite

[Ian Sedwell]

Hi guys

I am impressed by the level of technical expertise demonstrated by many of
the individuals who take time out to answer questions posed by their
less-knowledgeable colleagues. Most questions seem to be answered in a
manner that is helpful, modest and providing of a route whereby the
questioner can make further progress off their own bat. That is good.

No one is obliged to answer questions on this newsgroup. So we must always
be grateful that people are willing to spend an hour or so of their time
doing so.

However, there are a few contributors who seem to take delight in taking the
piss or being downright rude. Not everyone can be an expert in JavaScript,
or any other language for that matter. Indeed, the great majority will not
be expert. That's why being an expert is special, and why expertise is to be
respected.

But being an expert brings its own responsibility - that of sharing and
passing on the knowledge that has been gained; and doing so in such a manner
that it inspires others to do better for themselves next time. There are
some contributors (no more than a handful, thankfully) who seem to think
that the role of an expert is to leave questioners feeling small, inadequate
and stupid.

When I was learning my first program language (Modula-2, ah those were the
days!), I was told that the best programmers are those that ask questions,
and that the expert programmers were those that learned from the answers
they received.

I guess there's an FAQ on it somewhere...

Yours

Dr Ian Sedwell

 

[Jim Ley]

I was told that the best programmers are those that ask questions,
and that the expert programmers were those that learned from the answers
they received.

Ah yeah, but that's a load of rubbish, asking questions and learning
is how to be become expert programmers, just asking does not make you
one. Equally asking questions that are trivial to answer by asking
Google highlights that you do not have the skills essential to being a
programmer.

Of course many of the clj questions are from people who aren't
programmers, and never want to be, and many of the responses aren't
particularly polite, but that's a seperate issue.

Jim.

 

[oeyvind toft]

:

'...but that's a load of rubbish'
'...highlights that you do not have the skills essential to being a
programmer'

Seem to me one of Ian`s ng monsters has already lifted its head...

Oeyvind

 

[kaeli]

:

'...but that's a load of rubbish'
'...highlights that you do not have the skills essential to being a
programmer'

Seem to me one of Ian`s ng monsters has already lifted its head...

You forgot the important part of the quote. I know you didn't mean to.

"Equally asking questions that are trivial to answer by asking
Google highlights that you do not have the skills essential to being a
programmer."

If someone can't take the time to do a simple GIS, why should we take the
time to code for them, for free?

Just asking.

--
--
~kaeli~
A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless
interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an
otherwise dull day.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

 

[Ian Sedwell]

You forgot the important part of the quote. I know you didn't mean to.

"Equally asking questions that are trivial to answer by asking
Google highlights that you do not have the skills essential to being a
programmer."

If someone can't take the time to do a simple GIS, why should we take the
time to code for them, for free?

Just asking.

Of course people should make an effort. But it seems to me that many do and
simply get stuck. Surely the best reply to questions from such people is
simply to provide a reference to where the required information can be
found. Many people here do just that, and as a consequence someone who was
stuck reaps the benefit of a getting a gentle pointer to a good information
source and the encouragement to go and have another go themselves.

You will of course get freeloaders. By all means treat them as a student who
doesn't try. But give them the benefit of the doubt until proved mistaken.

By the way, with reference to "the skills essential to being a good
programmer"... I recall a report (I think by the BCS) that found that female
psychology or literature graduates tended to make the best programmers,
whilst male mathematics and physics graduates and males who programmed at
home for a hobby tended to make the worst. My experience has borne this out
and it kinda makes sense, female programmers I have employed are more
careful and are more likely to evaluate different solutions before fixing on
the one. And after all what is a non-trivial computer program but a complex
description of how some aspect of the world functions - and that would also
pass as a "definition" (and I use the term VERY loosely) of a novel.

Just thinking

 

[Dr John Stockton]

JRS: In article <BD62B1D8.CE24%[email protected]>, dated Mon, 6
Sep 2004 23:29:38, seen in Ian Sedwell

I guess there's an FAQ on it somewhere...

You should by now have read and understood the FAQ of this newsgroup.
Please comply with it all, but in particular Section 3.2 paragraph 8
sentence 2.

Those who post foolish questions can expected to be treated kindly;
questioners cannot be expected to understand everything already. Those
who post foolish answers can expect to be treated as they deserve.

Eschew surplusage.

 

[oeyvind toft]

If someone can't take the time to do a simple GIS, why should we take the
time to code for them, for free?

Just asking.

Who is forcing anybody to write code for anybody ??
Who forces anybody to get up on arms about some 'silly' question or
someone looking for freebees ??

Its totally beyond me why some people spend time writing rude replies
when it would be so easy to just ignore the post and move on to
something more meaningful.

It is my firm belief, after reading tons of newsgroup posts, that
some self appointed experts simply LOVE 'stupid' questions.

Wonder why ?


I think Ian makes some very good points...

oeyvind

 

[Paul Cooper]

If someone can't take the time to do a simple GIS, why should we take the
time to code for them, for free?

Just asking.

--

Writing a simple GIS (Geographic Information System) is a rather
complex task. I suspect you meant Google Internet Search, but the
acronym GIS is already in widespread use for Geographic Information
System, in an overlapping user community. Indeed, it has been used for
Geographic Information Systems since at least the mid 1980s. Also,
there are newsgroups (comp.infosystems.gis) named for the geographic
informatio system usage!

Paul

 

[Matt Kruse]

It is my firm belief, after reading tons of newsgroup posts, that
some self appointed experts simply LOVE 'stupid' questions.

Very true.

Some very intelligent, technical people lurk in newsgroups which discuss
their area of expertise and jump at any chance to tell people how stupid
they are. This happens in many technical newsgroups, not just this one!
There is a sense of 'elitism' that some people get because they thoroughly
understand a topic, and therefore bestow upon themselves a position of
authority not only on the specific topic, but of the group itself.

Unfortunately, these people are often the most active and vocal in a group
and often have the best technical answers to questions. So you have people
in this group like John Stockton, who repeatedly insults other users for
date format choices, posting styles, RFCs or W3C specs not being perfectly
followed, etc, yet often DOES have a great technical answer to the question
at hand. So do you ignore the person AND the answers?

You have to remember that many of these people just want to pump up their
own ego. They love seeing their posts appear, and they love being right.
They get off on technicalities and having all their ducks in a row. When you
have people posting obsessively about date formats, or posting styles, or
FAQ checking, or newsreader inadequacies, etc, etc... don't you kind of feel
sorry for them? They lack tact, politeness, and social grace. They're the
internet version of people who walk into a party and start insulting the
music, saying how they like Heineken beer better than the crap in the keg,
and how they wouldn't be interested in the "nasty" chicks even if they WERE
interested in him.

They haven't learned the finer points of socializing with a group... Don't
insult people. Don't make fun of people. Don't behave like you're better
than everyone else. Don't use sarcasm and passive aggressiveness to teach
someone a lesson. Don't assume you're the smart one and everyone else is
stupid. Don't be an asshole.

They're the people who correct an unimportant technical innacuracy in
someone's story, then wonder why everyone stares at them like they're an
idiot. They don't quite understand that it's best to just ignore it and
enjoy the story rather than obsess about technical accuracy.

This is not to say, of course, that there aren't stupid people ASKING
questions, too. Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference between some
idiot who wants people to solve all his problems and write his code, and
someone who is genuinely lost and overwhelmed and does not know how to solve
their problem. But IMO, if you think someone is an idiot, it's best to
ignore them rather than telling them so. Silence speaks volumes [and doesn't
start big off-topic threads!]

So, in conclusion, it's best to realize that the 'jerks' on this group (or
any group) are people who don't really know how to behave themselves in a
social situation. Rather than responding to their rudeness and starting a
battle, it's best to ignore them and let them play their little game and
stroke their own egos. When you see a response like "Uh, what part of FAQ
Section 5.9 did you not understand?" rather than "The FAQ answers your
question in section 5.9" you can chuckle quietly to yourself at their lack
of social grace, then move on.

 

[Jim Ley]

Of course people should make an effort. But it seems to me that many do and
simply get stuck. Surely the best reply to questions from such people is
simply to provide a reference to where the required information can be
found.

Remember I wasn't taking your main thrust to task, just noting that
asking questions on newsgroups is not the sign of an expert - sure
experts will often ask questions on usenet, and I can't think of many
of the people here who I consider experts in javascript who haven't
asked questions at some point) but the conclusion that asking a
question on usenet is something to be rewarded is not a conclusion I
can make I'm afraid. Too many of the questions are trivial.

By the way, with reference to "the skills essential to being a good
programmer"... I recall a report (I think by the BCS) that found that female
psychology or literature graduates tended to make the best programmers,

Sure, expert programming is an art form, and it's members could come
from any background - good programming can be learnt, but definitions
of best programmers is a difficult definition to make since it depends
on the environment, I believe the study you're refering too (or at the
very least one like it I have seen but couldn't find in a quick google
search) primarily focussed on work in a large corporate teams,
environments which often limit creativity but reward the social skills
inherent. (There's also other issues with such studies involving the
difficulty in generating programming metrics in a team environment
where certain facilicators can dramatically increase productivity of
some members without necessarily having their own abilities measured)

And after all what is a non-trivial computer program but a complex
description of how some aspect of the world functions - and that would also
pass as a "definition" (and I use the term VERY loosely) of a novel.

Of course it's art, I don't see the immediate correlation between the
artform and literature, (the same way an artist doesn't necessarily
make for a great composer) but within teams below the true level of
expert, certainly the poor social skills of the introvert harms their
productivity.

Jim.

 

[Ian Sedwell]

Remember I wasn't taking your main thrust to task, just noting that

I know Jim. Your comments in your second posting make that clear. I think we
are broadly in agreement

Ian

 

[oeyvind toft]

Some very intelligent, technical people lurk in newsgroups which discuss
their area of expertise and jump at any chance to tell people how stupid
they are. This happens in many technical newsgroups, not just this one!
There is a sense of 'elitism' that some people get because they thoroughly
understand a topic, and therefore bestow upon themselves a position of
authority not only on the specific topic, but of the group itself.

Very well said Matt...

Allthou I`m not sure about the 'intelligent' part... ;o)

--
http://home.online.no/~oeyvtoft/ToftWeb/

It is my firm belief, after reading tons of newsgroup posts, that
some self appointed experts simply LOVE 'stupid' questions.

Very true.

Some very intelligent, technical people lurk in newsgroups which discuss
their area of expertise and jump at any chance to tell people how stupid
they are. This happens in many technical newsgroups, not just this one!
There is a sense of 'elitism' that some people get because they thoroughly
understand a topic, and therefore bestow upon themselves a position of
authority not only on the specific topic, but of the group itself.

Unfortunately, these people are often the most active and vocal in a group
and often have the best technical answers to questions. So you have people
in this group like John Stockton, who repeatedly insults other users for
date format choices, posting styles, RFCs or W3C specs not being perfectly
followed, etc, yet often DOES have a great technical answer to the question
at hand. So do you ignore the person AND the answers?

You have to remember that many of these people just want to pump up their
own ego. They love seeing their posts appear, and they love being right.
They get off on technicalities and having all their ducks in a row. When you
have people posting obsessively about date formats, or posting styles, or
FAQ checking, or newsreader inadequacies, etc, etc... don't you kind of feel
sorry for them? They lack tact, politeness, and social grace. They're the
internet version of people who walk into a party and start insulting the
music, saying how they like Heineken beer better than the crap in the keg,
and how they wouldn't be interested in the "nasty" chicks even if they WERE
interested in him.

They haven't learned the finer points of socializing with a group... Don't
insult people. Don't make fun of people. Don't behave like you're better
than everyone else. Don't use sarcasm and passive aggressiveness to teach
someone a lesson. Don't assume you're the smart one and everyone else is
stupid. Don't be an asshole.

They're the people who correct an unimportant technical innacuracy in
someone's story, then wonder why everyone stares at them like they're an
idiot. They don't quite understand that it's best to just ignore it and
enjoy the story rather than obsess about technical accuracy.

This is not to say, of course, that there aren't stupid people ASKING
questions, too. Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference between some
idiot who wants people to solve all his problems and write his code, and
someone who is genuinely lost and overwhelmed and does not know how to solve
their problem. But IMO, if you think someone is an idiot, it's best to
ignore them rather than telling them so. Silence speaks volumes [and doesn't
start big off-topic threads!]

So, in conclusion, it's best to realize that the 'jerks' on this group (or
any group) are people who don't really know how to behave themselves in a
social situation. Rather than responding to their rudeness and starting a
battle, it's best to ignore them and let them play their little game and
stroke their own egos. When you see a response like "Uh, what part of FAQ
Section 5.9 did you not understand?" rather than "The FAQ answers your
question in section 5.9" you can chuckle quietly to yourself at their lack
of social grace, then move on.

 

[Lee]

oeyvind toft said:

Its totally beyond me why some people spend time writing rude replies
when it would be so easy to just ignore the post and move on to
something more meaningful.

Pot. Kettle.

 

[Lasse Reichstein Nielsen]

Very well said Matt...

Hey, what part of the FAQ (section 2.3, paragraph 6, word 9) didn't
you understand?

/L ''

 

[kaeli]

Who is forcing anybody to write code for anybody ??
Who forces anybody to get up on arms about some 'silly' question or
someone looking for freebees ??

Its totally beyond me why some people spend time writing rude replies
when it would be so easy to just ignore the post and move on to
something more meaningful.

It is beyond me why people take comments out of context and try to use them
to make a point.

Well, we'll both be befuddled, then, won't we?

Have a nice day!

--

 

[kaeli]

Who is forcing anybody to write code for anybody ??
Who forces anybody to get up on arms about some 'silly' question or
someone looking for freebees ??

I seem to have lost the word "force" in my post.
I can't find what you're replying to, but I believe I asked why we SHOULD do
anything at all for people who don't try to solve their own problems.
Whether that SHOULD covers helping or even being polite.
If someone does something that you consider rude (such as posting a question
easily answered by a search), would you ignore it, or be rude back?

Some people will do the former. Some the latter.

Its totally beyond me why some people spend time writing rude replies
when it would be so easy to just ignore the post and move on to
something more meaningful.

See above.

If a member of your family is looking for the lawnmower, which is always kept
in the garage, and they come to you and ask where it is, do you expect that
they have already looked in the garage? How do you reply if they haven't
looked in the garage? Might you be a little irritated that they didn't look
there before asking you about it?
That's kind of a rhetorical question. I don't care if you have a lawnmower or
not. *heh*

--

 

[Michael Winter]

JRS: In article <BD62B1D8.CE24%[email protected]>, dated Mon, 6
Sep 2004 23:29:38, seen in Ian Sedwell


You should by now have read and understood the FAQ of this newsgroup.
Please comply with it all, but in particular Section 3.2 paragraph 8
sentence 2.

I believe you meant the same sentence in section 2.3:

"And don't start a thread complaining about rude or flippant
responses, there is already enough noise in clj."

Mike

 

[Chad Lane]

Thanks for the great links John.

X-Man

 

[Dennis Ingram]

But being an expert brings its own responsibility - that of sharing and
passing on the knowledge that has been gained; and doing so in such a manner
that it inspires others to do better for themselves next time. There are
some contributors (no more than a handful, thankfully) who seem to think
that the role of an expert is to leave questioners feeling small, inadequate
and stupid.

I would not let this worry you. You are witnessing human nature, which
amongst its negative features includes taking pleasure from making
others feel small.

There was an article recently on newscientist.com about a study on
this very topic. Essentially it involved studying brain activity
whilst people played a game that allowed them to put others down. It
seems that when they did this, the part of their brains stimulated was
the same area that lights up when they felt joy.

Sad, I know. But think about it, this behaviour is all around us. Ever
played golf? There is always some wanker who delights in pointing out
how you have violated some trivial local rule or whatever. And so
on....

Take this and put it on the Internet where everyone can be anonymous
and it is no wonder really. But don't feel angry with these people,
feel pity - they probably have few friends.

Cheers
Dennis Ingram

 

[Ian Sedwell]

Take this and put it on the Internet where everyone can be anonymous

and it is no wonder really. But don't feel angry with these people,
feel pity - they probably have few friends.

Cheers
Dennis Ingram

Yeah, I guess! LOL

Cheers Dennis

Ian