A new OS

Discussion in 'Python' started by A Evans, Apr 12, 2004.

  1. A Evans

    A Evans Guest

    Hello Everyone I am working towards starting a project developing a new
    Operating System using the Python language (or a derivative thereof). As
    recommended on this forum I am asking if people are interested in something
    like this and ask who would be willing to support a project this large.

    Any and all ideas are welcome this message is just to see what kind of
    support this project would recieve

    Cheers

    Andrew
    A Evans, Apr 12, 2004
    #1
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  2. A Evans

    Peter Hansen Guest

    A Evans wrote:

    > Hello Everyone I am working towards starting a project developing a new
    > Operating System using the Python language (or a derivative thereof). As
    > recommended on this forum I am asking if people are interested in something
    > like this and ask who would be willing to support a project this large.
    >
    > Any and all ideas are welcome this message is just to see what kind of
    > support this project would recieve


    I would never even consider such a thing (supporting it, that is) unless
    someone explained in detail what they saw as the disadvantages of
    current operating systems (e.g. Linux) and what they felt Python would
    contribute which would make their product so "revolutionary".

    -Peter
    Peter Hansen, Apr 12, 2004
    #2
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  3. A Evans

    bobb Guest

    This reminds me of the discount book I saw once
    "How to build your own 32 bit operationg system"
    I wouldn't bother. (I agree w/ peter hansen)

    "A Evans" <ae> wrote in message news:...
    > Hello Everyone I am working towards starting a project developing a new
    > Operating System using the Python language (or a derivative thereof). As
    > recommended on this forum I am asking if people are interested in

    something
    > like this and ask who would be willing to support a project this large.
    >
    > Any and all ideas are welcome this message is just to see what kind of
    > support this project would recieve
    >
    > Cheers
    >
    > Andrew
    >
    >
    bobb, Apr 12, 2004
    #3
  4. I think it sounds like a great idea. I'd ultimately like to go a
    direction like that at some point. One of the biggest problems with
    existing operating systems (like Windows or Linux) is that they are
    for the most part built on C, which then dictates what the low level
    calls look like, the memory architecture, and so on. Writing an OS in
    Python could give you a new perspective on mapping a high level
    architecture onto a machine. Imagine, for instance, an OS
    architecture with a genuine object hierarchy, where low level details
    get abstracted into a machine level that can be swapped out to conform
    to different processor architectures, where garbage collection is an
    OS service, and maybe the filesystem is actually an object persistance
    system, so every file is actually an object with type instead of a bag
    of bytes, and then imagine how easy it would be to add advanced
    indexing a la Chandler to it. Could we then distribute programs as
    only python bytecode, getting platform independence? Would it be
    easier adding security using higher levels of abstraction? How about
    creating a complete network OS? Would that be easier in python? In
    general, as you abstract complex os services into simpler python code,
    would it be easier to expand the capabilities of your os? I can't
    imagine that it would be harder. It could be quite an interesting
    project, if conducted with the aim of not just making yet another
    generic operating system, but with the aim of creating a truly
    pythonic OS. That would be great.




    "A Evans" <ae> wrote in message news:<>...
    > Hello Everyone I am working towards starting a project developing a new
    > Operating System using the Python language (or a derivative thereof). As
    > recommended on this forum I am asking if people are interested in something
    > like this and ask who would be willing to support a project this large.
    >
    > Any and all ideas are welcome this message is just to see what kind of
    > support this project would recieve
    >
    > Cheers
    >
    > Andrew
    Corey Coughlin, Apr 12, 2004
    #4
  5. A Evans

    A Evans Guest

    Hello Everyone and thanks for the replies

    Yes It would be an entire OS made from Python. When I have something started
    I will come back to this forum and see then who would be interested. As
    asking for support is the wrong choice of words.

    What I should of said:

    Does anyone have any ideas to implement something this large and once I have
    a solid foundation to build from then who would be willing to help support
    the development of this project

    Thank You

    A. Evans
    A Evans, Apr 12, 2004
    #5
  6. A Evans

    Harald Massa Guest

    Hello A. Evans,

    I propose you should take a look at PyPy first.

    PyPy is an attempt to realise Python in Python. Because "IN THE END" your
    Operating System must run on existing hardware. And there is a step between
    Python and Assembler...

    With standard CPython it is C-language, with Jython it is Java.

    But there can be C-Errors in Python and C-Errors within Java ... so to get
    "only Python", you need a PythonPython first.

    Am I wrong?

    Harald
    Harald Massa, Apr 13, 2004
    #6
  7. A Evans

    Gerrit Guest

    Corey Coughlin wrote:
    > "A Evans" <ae> wrote in message news:<>...
    > > Hello Everyone I am working towards starting a project developing a new
    > > Operating System using the Python language (or a derivative thereof). As
    > > recommended on this forum I am asking if people are interested in something
    > > like this and ask who would be willing to support a project this large.
    > >
    > > Any and all ideas are welcome this message is just to see what kind of
    > > support this project would recieve


    http://sourceforge.net/projects/cleese
    http://cleese.sourceforge.net/

    I don't believe in it.

    Gerrit.

    --
    Weather in Amsterdam Airport Schiphol, Netherlands 13/04 12:25:
    11.0°C Few clouds mostly cloudy wind 3.6 m/s NE (-2 m above NAP)
    --
    Experiences with Asperger's Syndrome:
    EN http://topjaklont.student.utwente.nl/english/
    NL http://topjaklont.student.utwente.nl/
    Gerrit, Apr 13, 2004
    #7
  8. A Evans

    Peter Hansen Guest

    Peter Hansen, Apr 13, 2004
    #8
  9. Harald Massa <> wrote:

    >I propose you should take a look at PyPy first.
    >
    >PyPy is an attempt to realise Python in Python. Because "IN THE END" your
    >Operating System must run on existing hardware. And there is a step between
    >Python and Assembler...
    >
    >With standard CPython it is C-language, with Jython it is Java.
    >
    >But there can be C-Errors in Python and C-Errors within Java ... so to get
    >"only Python", you need a PythonPython first.
    >
    >Am I wrong?


    Yes I think so. PyPy is a nice project, but it is a kind of all or
    nothing project. What is needed is something like Prothon, but even
    smaller.

    Prothon is using a set of separate dlls (f.e. dict.dll, list.dll etc.)
    to provide the basic objects. This is a lot better than what Python is
    doing at the moment, because Python depends on one megadll
    (pythonxx.dll) for these objects.

    The problem with this approach is that all objects have to be compiled
    using the same compiler, while it would theoretically be possible to
    write one dll using C, another using Lisp another using assembler and
    another using something else.

    Prothon theoretically could do that, but it loads the basic dlls the
    moment the interpreter is started, which makes it dependent on having
    all these dlls available (and possibly all dlls need to be compiled
    using the same compiler, I don't know about that).

    What is needed for Python to come closer to the OS and to enable it to
    advance faster is a bootstrapping interpreter which basically only
    provides a ctypes alike functionality that enables it to import a set
    of basic Python object dlls in the same way as if it were standard
    operating system dlls. It would make no difference for the interpreter
    if it imported dict.dll or for example kernel32.dll, but of course
    this strategy would introduce needing to have *some* dlls imported
    before all others in order to provide basic functionality. This is
    currently necessary for the __future__ extension too so there is a
    precedent already. I expect such a beast to have a footprint of about
    100k.

    There would be no problems with Python extensions needing to be
    compiled with a certain C-compiler since all dlls would be required to
    conform to the dlls of the operating system.

    This would bring Python a lot closer to seamless interaction with the
    operating system and enable it to eventually turn into not a
    completely separate operating system but into something akin to Cygwin
    (which is a kind of Linux running under Windows).

    Another advantage would be that it would be possible to update Python
    in smaller steps, for example only a newer dict.dll, this time a dll
    written in assembler or even in Lisp. For systems that don't have this
    compilers older dict.dll files would still be available.

    Some Python scripts could have a really small footprint as if it were
    Lua scripts because we only need to provide those dlls that the script
    uses, sometimes only dlls that the operating system already has, or
    dlls that are in Cygwin, Visual Basic or C# and which are freely
    available on the net. In the latter case probably some flexible dll
    loader functionality would be necessary, hence the need for ctypes.

    Or we could compile the necessary dlls on the fly using a Python
    compile-to-os-specific-dll script that only needed a few standard
    Python dlls itself.

    Since I'm not an OS-guru or even know a lot about the lower level
    details (though I have been able to write and compile extensions in C)
    I might be wrong about the feasibility of such a project (maybe it can
    be done but the standardization of dll interfaces would be
    prohibitively difficult given Pythons dynamic and platform independent
    development cycle) but I remain confident that this is the way to go.

    (I'm Dutch you know, so I can't be proven wrong unless you've got a
    timemachine, I have used mine to post the same kind of idea about half
    a year ago and I *will* use it to retroactively fix *this* post in
    case there are problems with it :))

    Anton
    Anton Vredegoor, Apr 13, 2004
    #9
  10. A Evans

    Yermat Guest

    A Evans a écrit :
    > Hello Everyone I am working towards starting a project developing a new
    > Operating System using the Python language (or a derivative thereof). As
    > recommended on this forum I am asking if people are interested in something
    > like this and ask who would be willing to support a project this large.
    >
    > Any and all ideas are welcome this message is just to see what kind of
    > support this project would recieve
    >
    > Cheers
    >
    > Andrew
    >
    >


    Taking a look at the Isaac Project may give you some hints...
    http://www.isaacos.com/

    It's based on an object-oriented and dynanism language named lisaac
    (even inheritage is dynamic).

    --
    Yermat
    Yermat, Apr 13, 2004
    #10
  11. A Evans

    Maurice LING Guest

    A Evans wrote:
    > Hello Everyone I am working towards starting a project developing a new
    > Operating System using the Python language (or a derivative thereof). As
    > recommended on this forum I am asking if people are interested in something
    > like this and ask who would be willing to support a project this large.
    >
    > Any and all ideas are welcome this message is just to see what kind of
    > support this project would recieve
    >
    > Cheers
    >
    > Andrew
    >
    >

    Is it possible to program a python virtual machine into an EEPROM
    (eletrically erasable programmable read-only memory) and then set the
    BIOS to access this VM as the bootloader? So in directly, we have a very
    low level python VM in the system when it boots up......

    Maurice
    Maurice LING, Apr 26, 2004
    #11
  12. > Is it possible to program a python virtual machine into an EEPROM
    > (eletrically erasable programmable read-only memory) and then set the
    > BIOS to access this VM as the bootloader? So in directly, we have a very
    > low level python VM in the system when it boots up......


    Two key issues:
    Memory; depending on your EEPROM, you may or may not be able to fit a
    Python VM.
    OS Services; traditionally, Python has relied on the operating system
    for various services that are important to a large number of nontrivial
    applications (sockets, filesystem interfaces, malloc, etc.)

    - Josiah
    Josiah Carlson, Apr 26, 2004
    #12
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