A program to measure flops in Perl (should it be this "off"?)

Discussion in 'Perl Misc' started by px1138@gmail.com, Aug 30, 2005.

  1. Guest

    I am in a grad level computer architecture class. Although it does not
    have any programming prereqs most of the students are CS (I am EE), so
    the first assignment was to write a little program to determine the
    amount of flops per second your computer runs at. It is suppose to be a
    short program, and apart from making sure you use a good timer and run
    for long enough to ensure accuracy it doesn't have to include any
    really big optimizations (i.e. making sure all the data fits in cache
    to minimize memory transfer, doing something like LINPACK and making
    sure your # ops >> # data, etc etc).

    My personal caveat is that I suck at C/C++, I wouldn't even know where
    to start. However, I have coded in Perl at many internships and other
    projects so I wanted to use Perl. Well, I am getting downright horrible
    performance from my Perl script (I would say a factor of 100 or more
    slower than my CPU should be). I have pretty much the same sort of
    algorithm as a friend of mine has in C++ and he is getting something
    like ~500Mflops on is laptop while my perl script (running perl for
    windows, I know, I know) says 2-5Mflop! Now I know Perl is interpretted
    but should it be THAT slow? If so, why? If not, so I am just coding
    something oddly?

    -Josh
     
    , Aug 30, 2005
    #1
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  2. wrote in news:1125433075.641083.64400
    @g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:


    > but should it be THAT slow? If so, why? If not, so I am just coding
    > something oddly?


    Please read the posting guidelines for this group.

    Show what you are doing (i.e. post a self-contained script that exhibits
    the problem), and we might be able to comment.

    OTOH, Perl does provide some extra goodies, and there is a cost associated
    with that.

    Sinan

    PS: There is no language called C/C++. It is either C or C++.

    --
    A. Sinan Unur <>
    (reverse each component and remove .invalid for email address)

    comp.lang.perl.misc guidelines on the WWW:
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    A. Sinan Unur, Aug 30, 2005
    #2
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  3. Guest

    Meh, then I'll just deal with it . Was just wondering if in general i
    should be seeing such dismal performance as compared to C. No need for
    others to respond, sorry for crashing your group, I'll be going now.
     
    , Aug 30, 2005
    #3
  4. writes:
    > Meh, then I'll just deal with it . Was just wondering if in general i
    > should be seeing such dismal performance as compared to C.


    The problem is, there is no "in general". While Perl programs often
    have a huge startup cost relative to C or C++ programs, sometimes the
    code perl generates for a given construct is faster than a
    poorly-written C version of the same construct (well-written C is
    almost always going to be faster). Sometimes it will be worse. The
    only way to know is for you to show us your code.

    > No need for others to respond, sorry for crashing your group, I'll
    > be going now.


    That's your choice. Hope it works out for you.

    -=Eric
     
    Eric Schwartz, Aug 31, 2005
    #4
  5. Guest

    wrote:
    > I am in a grad level computer architecture class.


    Then you should know better than to ask questions without providing
    any relevant information.


    > My personal caveat is that I suck at C/C++, I wouldn't even know where
    > to start. However, I have coded in Perl at many internships and other
    > projects so I wanted to use Perl. Well, I am getting downright horrible
    > performance from my Perl script (I would say a factor of 100 or more
    > slower than my CPU should be).


    I get a factor of 33 difference for my simple program. 100-fold slower
    than an equivalent C code? Sure, I could believe that. Of course, that
    has nothing to do with how fast your CPU "should be", as you are asking
    your CPU to do entirely different things.

    > I have pretty much the same sort of
    > algorithm as a friend of mine has in C++ and he is getting something
    > like ~500Mflops on is laptop while my perl script (running perl for
    > windows, I know, I know) says 2-5Mflop! Now I know Perl is interpretted
    > but should it be THAT slow? If so, why?


    Because it does a lot of things C doesn't, like extra dereferencing,
    checking for definedness, automatic conversion from string representations
    to integer and floating point representations, automatic bounds checking
    and reallocation of arrays and strings, and on and on and on. All the
    stuff that makes Perl Perl rather than C. Afterall, if Perl only does
    what C does, we would just use C.

    > If not, so I am just coding
    > something oddly?


    How should we know? You haven't shown us any of your coding.

    Xho

    [~/perl_misc]$ time ./a.out
    125000000067108896.000000
    4.470u 0.010s 0:05.44 82.3% 0+0k 0+0io 93pf+0w

    [~/perl_misc]$ time perl overhead2.pl
    125000000067108896.000000
    148.810u 0.400s 3:06.70 79.9% 0+0k 0+0io 365pf+0w

    [~/perl_misc]$ cat overhead2.pl
    use strict;
    my $y;
    foreach (1..500_000_000) {
    $y+=$_;
    };
    printf "%f\n", $y;

    [~/perl_misc]$ cat overhead2.c
    int main() {
    double y=0;
    int x;
    for (x=1; x<=500000000; x++) {
    y+=x;
    };
    printf("%f\n",y);
    };

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    , Aug 31, 2005
    #5
  6. fishfry Guest

    In article <>,
    wrote:

    > I am in a grad level computer architecture class. Although it does not
    > have any programming prereqs most of the students are CS (I am EE), so
    > the first assignment was to write a little program to determine the
    > amount of flops per second your computer runs at. It is suppose to be a
    > short program, and apart from making sure you use a good timer and run
    > for long enough to ensure accuracy it doesn't have to include any
    > really big optimizations (i.e. making sure all the data fits in cache
    > to minimize memory transfer, doing something like LINPACK and making
    > sure your # ops >> # data, etc etc).
    >
    > My personal caveat is that I suck at C/C++, I wouldn't even know where
    > to start.


    Pardon me for asking ... I'm a bit of an old timer. How do you get to
    grad school in computers without knowing a compiled language?
     
    fishfry, Aug 31, 2005
    #6
  7. John Bokma Guest

    fishfry <> wrote:

    > Pardon me for asking ... I'm a bit of an old timer. How do you get to
    > grad school in computers without knowing a compiled language?


    Some questions:

    - what is a compiled language

    - is Java a compiled language
    - is Perl a compiled language
    - is C# a compiled language
    - is Prolog a compiled language
    - is Haskell a compiled language

    --
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    Perl programmer available: http://castleamber.com/
    Happy Customers: http://castleamber.com/testimonials.html
     
    John Bokma, Aug 31, 2005
    #7
  8. fishfry Guest

    In article <Xns96C2EE1F15694castleamber@130.133.1.4>,
    John Bokma <> wrote:

    > fishfry <> wrote:
    >
    > > Pardon me for asking ... I'm a bit of an old timer. How do you get to
    > > grad school in computers without knowing a compiled language?

    >
    > Some questions:
    >
    > - what is a compiled language
    >
    > - is Java a compiled language
    > - is Perl a compiled language
    > - is C# a compiled language
    > - is Prolog a compiled language
    > - is Haskell a compiled language


    Fair enough.

    How do you get to grad school in computers without knowing C or C++?

    Like I say, I haven't been to school in a while. I'm curious.
     
    fishfry, Sep 1, 2005
    #8
  9. John Bokma Guest

    fishfry <> wrote:

    > How do you get to grad school in computers without knowing C or C++?


    What are the advantages of C/C++ over:

    - Java
    - C#

    (to keep it simple)

    Oh, what happened to assembly language and hex code entry (and building
    your own hardware for that matter?)

    > Like I say, I haven't been to school in a while. I'm curious.


    You can even study CS with a pseudo language and without using computers.

    --
    John Small Perl scripts: http://johnbokma.com/perl/
    Perl programmer available: http://castleamber.com/
    Happy Customers: http://castleamber.com/testimonials.html
     
    John Bokma, Sep 1, 2005
    #9
  10. >>>>> "JB" == John Bokma <> writes:

    JB> fishfry <> wrote:
    >> How do you get to grad school in computers without knowing C or
    >> C++?


    JB> What are the advantages of C/C++ over:

    JB> - Java - C#

    JB> (to keep it simple)

    Pedagogically? C teaches you how to deal with manual memory
    management, and is about as bare-bones as it's possible to get. It
    gives you a good point of reference for performance and programming
    complexity, even for toy programs: once you've dealt with the Sieve of
    Eratosthenes in C, for instance, you can compare the difficulty of
    implementation, resource consumption, and speed against LISP, Perl,
    Haskell....

    From a practical point of view, C and C++ are the common
    implementation languages of operating systems and other languages. It
    is at a sweet spot for some tasks, and trying to use a language like
    Java or Perl or C# for those tasks is a mistake. Anyone doing any
    work in operating systems is going to need to cope with the Linux
    kernel on some level.

    This is not to say that Java and C# do not *also* have pedagogical uses.

    JB> Oh, what happened to assembly language and hex code entry (and
    JB> building your own hardware for that matter?)

    Computer scientists should be dealing with assembly language too;
    knowing a little bit about hardware is nice.

    >> Like I say, I haven't been to school in a while. I'm curious.


    JB> You can even study CS with a pseudo language and without using
    JB> computers.

    You *can*, but a great deal of applied computer science is about
    tradeoffs, and that's hard to grasp entirely on paper.

    As for myself, I'm deeply suspicious of computer science graduates,
    let alone graduate students, who don't have at least a glancing
    knowledge of a half-dozen computer languages. I'm not that old, and
    if I had been taught only "industry relevant" languages, I'd never
    have been able to pick up Java, Perl, PHP, or Objective-C.

    Charlton


    --
    cwilbur at chromatico dot net
    cwilbur at mac dot com
     
    Charlton Wilbur, Sep 1, 2005
    #10
  11. John Bokma Guest

    Charlton Wilbur <> wrote:

    >>>>>> "JB" == John Bokma <> writes:

    >
    > JB> fishfry <> wrote:
    > >> How do you get to grad school in computers without knowing C or
    > >> C++?

    >
    > JB> What are the advantages of C/C++ over:
    >
    > JB> - Java - C#
    >
    > JB> (to keep it simple)
    >
    > Pedagogically? C teaches you how to deal with manual memory
    > management, and is about as bare-bones as it's possible to get.


    Assembly? Build your own processor with TTL?

    > It
    > gives you a good point of reference for performance


    performance... I rarely worry about that one. Faster hardware is often
    cheaper then hiring a programmer. An exception might be embedded. But,
    that's a specialization.

    > and programming
    > complexity, even for toy programs: once you've dealt with the Sieve of
    > Eratosthenes in C, for instance, you can compare the difficulty of
    > implementation, resource consumption, and speed against LISP, Perl,
    > Haskell....
    >
    > From a practical point of view, C and C++ are the common
    > implementation languages of operating systems and other languages. It
    > is at a sweet spot for some tasks, and trying to use a language like
    > Java or Perl or C# for those tasks is a mistake. Anyone doing any
    > work in operating systems is going to need to cope with the Linux
    > kernel on some level.


    A study is preparing someone without specializing too much. I rather
    would teach "high level" programming, preferable showing several
    different languages (OO, functional, etc.) and managing big projects
    compared to kernel level hacking. What is more realistic?

    > This is not to say that Java and C# do not *also* have pedagogical

    uses.
    >
    > JB> Oh, what happened to assembly language and hex code entry (and
    > JB> building your own hardware for that matter?)
    >
    > Computer scientists should be dealing with assembly language too;
    > knowing a little bit about hardware is nice.


    Assembly is just details. I rather read an introduction to computer
    algorithms compared to Knuth's MIX stuff. It distracts way too much
    IMNSHO.

    > >> Like I say, I haven't been to school in a while. I'm curious.

    >
    > JB> You can even study CS with a pseudo language and without using
    > JB> computers.
    >
    > You *can*, but a great deal of applied computer science is about
    > tradeoffs, and that's hard to grasp entirely on paper.


    Moreover, and more important, it's extremely hard to grasp behind a
    computer as well. An optimized badly designed algorithm can run way
    slower compared to a well thought out algorithm not optimized to use
    every bit.

    > As for myself, I'm deeply suspicious of computer science graduates,
    > let alone graduate students, who don't have at least a glancing
    > knowledge of a half-dozen computer languages.


    Probably because you are not one of them ;-). I rather see a student who
    has a firm understanding of theoretical CS (e.g. can read "An
    introduction..." backwards) and can handle 2 languages compared to one
    who does kernel hacking and knows 5+ other languages...

    > I'm not that old, and
    > if I had been taught only "industry relevant" languages, I'd never
    > have been able to pick up Java, Perl, PHP, or Objective-C.


    Why is that? Are you tied to a chair? :-D

    --
    John Small Perl scripts: http://johnbokma.com/perl/
    Perl programmer available: http://castleamber.com/
    Happy Customers: http://castleamber.com/testimonials.html
     
    John Bokma, Sep 1, 2005
    #11
  12. On Thu, 1 Sep 2005, John Bokma wrote:

    > Assembly? Build your own processor with TTL?


    We tried microcoding, a decade or two back (on IBM 4331/4361
    mainframes, which were microcoded machines "under the covers", even
    though they looked like 370/XA architecture on the surface).

    A good job we didn't invest too much effort into it, though. The idea
    came from my then-boss, but it was good fun for someone like me who
    had early experience on the STANTEC ZEBRA - but wildly impractical in
    the big scheme of things. By the time we could have incorporated it
    into a production application program, we had already phased out that
    series of hardware!

    cheers
     
    Alan J. Flavell, Sep 1, 2005
    #12
  13. Guest

    John Bokma <> wrote:
    > fishfry <> wrote:
    >
    > > How do you get to grad school in computers without knowing C or C++?


    He didn't say he was in grad schhol in computers. I've taken several
    grad-level classes while I was an undergrad, including some not in my
    major.

    >
    > What are the advantages of C/C++ over:
    >
    > - Java
    > - C#
    >
    > (to keep it simple)
    >
    > Oh, what happened to assembly language and hex code entry (and building
    > your own hardware for that matter?)
    >
    > > Like I say, I haven't been to school in a while. I'm curious.

    >
    > You can even study CS with a pseudo language and without using computers.


    I am sure you can do it, but not very effectively. Pseudo languages hide a
    multitude of sins, which make them highly unrealistic. That is why they
    are pseudo languages--no one has been able to reduce them to practise.

    Xho

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    , Sep 1, 2005
    #13
  14. >>>>> "JB" == John Bokma <> writes:

    >> It gives you a good point of reference for performance


    JB> performance... I rarely worry about that one. Faster hardware
    JB> is often cheaper then hiring a programmer. An exception might
    JB> be embedded. But, that's a specialization.

    >> and programming complexity, even for toy programs: once you've
    >> dealt with the Sieve of Eratosthenes in C, for instance, you
    >> can compare the difficulty of implementation, resource
    >> consumption, and speed against LISP, Perl, Haskell....


    Faster hardware won't help when your programmer just doesn't
    understand that he's doing thousands of memory allocations and
    deallocations in a tight loop, or that he's using an O(2**n) algorithm
    when he can find an O(n ln n) algorithm for the same thing.

    It's a commonplace in Perl culture that programmer time is expensive,
    and computer time is cheap. But that doesn't mean that performance is
    irrelevant, and it sure as hell doesn't mean that a programmer
    shouldn't be aware of the various tradeoff possibilities among
    implementation difficulty, resource consumption, and speed.

    (Hint: When I respond to a point with an entire sentence, responding
    to the first ten words of the sentence as if they were all I wrote is
    not generally helpful, especially if the rest of the sentence
    undercuts your point.)

    JB> A study is preparing someone without specializing too much. I
    JB> rather would teach "high level" programming, preferable
    JB> showing several different languages (OO, functional, etc.) and
    JB> managing big projects compared to kernel level hacking. What
    JB> is more realistic?

    I would say that in the four years of an undergraduate degree it's
    entirely capable to be shown several different languages and reach a
    minimal level of competence in all of them. A *well-educated*
    computer science student will know something about managing big
    projects, something about kernel level hacking, something about object
    oriented design and programming, something about functional
    programming, something about algorithm analysis, something about
    computation theory (regular languages, pushdown automata, Turing
    machines), something about artificial intelligence.

    You're creating a false dichotomy between "kernel level hacking" and
    "high level" programming and project management. A *well-educated*
    computer science student will learn a good deal about both of those.

    JB> Assembly is just details. I rather read an introduction to
    JB> computer algorithms compared to Knuth's MIX stuff. It
    JB> distracts way too much IMNSHO.

    Except that *someone* needs to deal with those details. It's nice to
    imagine everything as black boxes and virtual machines all the way
    down, but at some point you hit real hardware.

    JB> Probably because you are not one of them ;-). I rather see a
    JB> student who has a firm understanding of theoretical CS
    JB> (e.g. can read "An introduction..." backwards) and can handle
    JB> 2 languages compared to one who does kernel hacking and knows
    JB> 5+ other languages...

    Again, false dichotomy. A *well-educated* student should have a firm
    understanding of theoretical *and* practical CS. This means
    understanding the math *and* knowing one's way around a debugger.

    Charlton


    --
    cwilbur at chromatico dot net
    cwilbur at mac dot com
     
    Charlton Wilbur, Sep 1, 2005
    #14
  15. John Bokma Guest

    wrote:

    > John Bokma <> wrote:


    >> You can even study CS with a pseudo language and without using
    >> computers.

    >
    > I am sure you can do it, but not very effectively. Pseudo languages
    > hide a multitude of sins, which make them highly unrealistic. That is
    > why they are pseudo languages--no one has been able to reduce them to
    > practise.


    Nonsense of course, a good example is MIX, and pseudo pascal (IIRC) as used
    in An introduction to algorithms.

    --
    John Small Perl scripts: http://johnbokma.com/perl/
    Perl programmer available: http://castleamber.com/
    Happy Customers: http://castleamber.com/testimonials.html
     
    John Bokma, Sep 1, 2005
    #15
  16. John Bokma Guest

    John Bokma, Sep 2, 2005
    #16
  17. Anno Siegel Guest

    John Bokma <> wrote in comp.lang.perl.misc:
    > wrote:
    >
    > > John Bokma <> wrote:

    >
    > >> You can even study CS with a pseudo language and without using
    > >> computers.

    > >
    > > I am sure you can do it, but not very effectively. Pseudo languages
    > > hide a multitude of sins, which make them highly unrealistic. That is
    > > why they are pseudo languages--no one has been able to reduce them to
    > > practise.

    >
    > Nonsense of course, a good example is MIX, and pseudo pascal (IIRC) as used
    > in An introduction to algorithms.


    MIX isn't a pseudo language, it's a real assembler with real
    implementations. That it wasn't written for any specific hardware
    makes no difference. Nothing is glossed over in a MIX program, all
    the details are there.

    Anno
    --
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    Anno Siegel, Sep 2, 2005
    #17
  18. Guest

    fishfry <> wrote:
    > wrote:


    >> I am in a grad level computer architecture class. Although it does not
    >> have any programming prereqs most of the students are CS (I am EE), so
    >> the first assignment was to write a little program to determine the
    >> amount of flops per second your computer runs at. It is suppose to be a
    >> short program, and apart from making sure you use a good timer and run
    >> for long enough to ensure accuracy it doesn't have to include any
    >> really big optimizations (i.e. making sure all the data fits in cache
    >> to minimize memory transfer, doing something like LINPACK and making
    >> sure your # ops >> # data, etc etc).


    >> My personal caveat is that I suck at C/C++, I wouldn't even know where
    >> to start.


    > Pardon me for asking ... I'm a bit of an old timer. How do you get to
    > grad school in computers without knowing a compiled language?


    Quite easily. I did an M.Sc. in computer science despite
    having done my first degree as an MA in Mediaeval History.
    (I had done some computing before, but it was not a
    requirement for entry to the course).

    Axel
     
    , Sep 2, 2005
    #18
  19. Guest

    Charlton Wilbur <> wrote:
    > It's a commonplace in Perl culture that programmer time is expensive,
    > and computer time is cheap. But that doesn't mean that performance is


    It is true. I remember a project I had to write in C++ which I
    could probably have done in a fifth of the time in Perl (which
    was not an option). Still, who was I to complain too much
    as I got paid for it.

    > irrelevant, and it sure as hell doesn't mean that a programmer
    > shouldn't be aware of the various tradeoff possibilities among
    > implementation difficulty, resource consumption, and speed.


    > (Hint: When I respond to a point with an entire sentence, responding
    > to the first ten words of the sentence as if they were all I wrote is
    > not generally helpful, especially if the rest of the sentence
    > undercuts your point.)


    > I would say that in the four years of an undergraduate degree it's
    > entirely capable to be shown several different languages and reach a
    > minimal level of competence in all of them. A *well-educated*


    True. But how many different languages? Certainly C, either Java
    or C++, assembly, and a functional language. I would not include
    Perl in the list as it makes things too easy (if I may use that
    phrase) and therefore not good for teaching.

    > computer science student will know something about managing big
    > projects, something about kernel level hacking, something about object
    > oriented design and programming, something about functional
    > programming, something about algorithm analysis, something about
    > computation theory (regular languages, pushdown automata, Turing
    > machines), something about artificial intelligence.


    > You're creating a false dichotomy between "kernel level hacking" and
    > "high level" programming and project management. A *well-educated*
    > computer science student will learn a good deal about both of those.


    Are you sure? My experience is that computer science courses actually
    teach very little about what is demanded in the commercial world.
    Subjects such as system administration, routing, file storage
    solutions, and so on.

    I worked in the Internet department of a cable ISP. I think I was
    the only person there who had a computing degree. A couple had
    engineering degrees, one a music degree (if that is the correct
    word for a qualification from a conservatory), and the others no
    degree. One of those without a degree told me he had given it up
    as he could make more money as a sys admin and travel the world
    doing it; another was an expert on Cisco routers.

    Axel
     
    , Sep 2, 2005
    #19
  20. >>>>> "ax" == axel <> writes:

    ax> Charlton Wilbur <> wrote:

    >> It's a commonplace in Perl culture that programmer time is
    >> expensive, and computer time is cheap. But that doesn't mean
    >> that performance is


    ax> It is true. I remember a project I had to write in C++ which I
    ax> could probably have done in a fifth of the time in Perl (which
    ax> was not an option). Still, who was I to complain too much as I
    ax> got paid for it.

    >> irrelevant, and it sure as hell doesn't mean that a programmer
    >> shouldn't be aware of the various tradeoff possibilities among
    >> implementation difficulty, resource consumption, and speed.


    Again: when I respond to a point with an entire sentence, responding
    to the first phrase of the sentence as if it was the whole point is
    NOT HELPFUL, especially when the rest of the sentence undercuts your
    point.

    >> (Hint: When I respond to a point with an entire sentence,
    >> responding to the first ten words of the sentence as if they
    >> were all I wrote is not generally helpful, especially if the
    >> rest of the sentence undercuts your point.)


    >> I would say that in the four years of an undergraduate degree
    >> it's entirely capable to be shown several different languages
    >> and reach a minimal level of competence in all of them. A
    >> *well-educated*


    ax> True. But how many different languages? Certainly C, either
    ax> Java or C++, assembly, and a functional language. I would not
    ax> include Perl in the list as it makes things too easy (if I may
    ax> use that phrase) and therefore not good for teaching.

    At a minimum, I'd say C (for being close to the machine), FORTRAN or
    COBOL (for business reasons), LISP or Scheme (no code/data dichotomy),
    Haskell or ML (modern functional programming), Smalltalk or Eiffel
    (for pure, powerful object-orientation), assembly of some sort (for
    being even closer to the machine than C), and Java, C#, or C++
    (because that's what industry uses).

    >> You're creating a false dichotomy between "kernel level
    >> hacking" and "high level" programming and project management.
    >> A *well-educated* computer science student will learn a good
    >> deal about both of those.


    ax> Are you sure? My experience is that computer science courses
    ax> actually teach very little about what is demanded in the
    ax> commercial world. Subjects such as system administration,
    ax> routing, file storage solutions, and so on.

    That's because what the commercial world needs are not computer
    scientists but system administrators, network administrators, file
    server administrators, and so on. It makes about as much sense to
    expect a computer scientist to be good at server or network
    administration as it does for a mathematician to be good at
    accounting. In the absence of respected accounting degrees, no doubt
    many qualified accountants would have no choice but to get math
    degrees, and that's the situation we're in with computer science:
    worthwhile vocational degrees in system administration are few and far
    between, but businesses usually require a college degree, so any
    degree will do.

    Charlton



    --
    cwilbur at chromatico dot net
    cwilbur at mac dot com
     
    Charlton Wilbur, Sep 2, 2005
    #20
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