a question relating to job application

[Leo]

Dear All,

I don't have any industry java programming experiences. I only have java
programming exprience at school. I want to apply for java developer
jobs. I donnot have any knowledge of EJB, Struts, JBoss etc. Can I gain
these knowledge by reading books so I can match those java job requirements?

I am a quick learner. I graduated with a PhD in biology and switched to
computer science.

Many thanks.

 

[EricF]

Dear All,

I don't have any industry java programming experiences. I only have java
programming exprience at school. I want to apply for java developer
jobs. I donnot have any knowledge of EJB, Struts, JBoss etc. Can I gain
these knowledge by reading books so I can match those java job requirements?

I am a quick learner. I graduated with a PhD in biology and switched to
computer science.

Many thanks.

Sure, you can pick them up on your own. It's not a substitute for on the job
experience but potential employers will like that you are interested enough to
learn on your own.

By the way, these are marketable skills.

Eric

 

[James McGill]

I do not have any knowledge of EJB, Struts, JBoss etc. Can I gain
these knowledge by reading books so I can match those java job
requirements?

Maybe, but there is a LOT to know, just in that short list -- in fact,
it's bigger than learning the Java language.

On the other hand, those of us who learned these technologies as they
were developing, learned them from books, trial-and-error, etc.

I suggest you install JBoss, and read Monson-Haefel's book and work
through his examples. EJB isn't really hard to learn, but it does
introduce some interesting constraints and must be approached a certain
way.

As for Struts (and Shale, and Spring), those things become easier to
digest after you've encountered the problems that they seek to address,
or when you are already designing in the same "framework space" where
these things live. Struts in particular, is really easy to work with
once you start using taglibs.

JBoss is a monster, but it's good. Better than certain very expensive
products it competes with. Well worth digging into and learning, if
you're going to be doing the kind of business software where it's used.

May I also suggest getting the Hibernate jars and a copy of MySQL, and
teaching yourself all about idiomatic data access?

If you came into my shop able to demonstrate competence, where you could
deploy an EJB, a Servlet, a JSP page that calls a custom Taglib,
describe an understanding of a few design patterns like MVC, configure a
database pool under JBoss, map a Hibernate descriptor to an object and a
table, and make JUnit insert, update, retreive, and remove that
persistent object, we would have no more technical questions for you.
If you can do all that, nobody cares if you learned it from a book.
That's where everyone else learned it, maybe with the occasional
day-long course here and there.

This is a lot of stuff to learn though. You should learn it because you
want to know it, not because you want to match your buzzwords to a job
description. We'd see right through that. J2EE is worth knowing, and
there's enough going on that you can expect to never know it all.

 

[Leo]

Thank you very much. I am curious, are all these technologies best to be
run on Linux platform? (I use linux, not Microsoft windows).

 

[James McGill]

Thank you very much. I am curious, are all these technologies best to
be run on Linux platform? (I use linux, not Microsoft windows).

Of course! One of the big deals with all of this stuff is the
platform-independence.

 

[Jeffrey Schwab]

I don't have any industry java programming experiences. I only have java
programming exprience at school. I want to apply for java developer
jobs. I donnot have any knowledge of EJB, Struts, JBoss etc. Can I gain
these knowledge by reading books so I can match those java job
requirements?

I am a quick learner. I graduated with a PhD in biology and switched to
computer science.

You'll need some experience. One good way to get some is to contribute
to open-source projects.

 

[opalpa]

You'll need some experience. One good way to get some is to contribute

to open-source projects.

Lots and lots of experience and reading is a prerequisite to creating
complex and quality programs. However neither education nor experience
is necessary to get programming jobs. The programming field is unlike
professions, were for example if you want to be a buildings engineer
there is standard accreditation, or if you want to be a lawyer there is
a bar exam.

It is true that large companies' IT and R&D departments have rigorous
interviews for programmers, but there are plenty of jobs where you can
progarm without experience or eduction:
1) large company's business side (plenty of excel macros&VB)
2) a very small company that doesn't have many hiring options
3) you can apply to be a manager in the R&D or IT department of a
large company

Opalinski
(e-mail address removed)
http://www.geocities.com/opalpaweb/

 

[James McGill]

You'll need some experience. One good way to get some is to
contribute
to open-source projects.

What kinds of open source projects use J2EE stuff, other than the
infrastructure projects themselves?

 

[Jeffrey Schwab]

What kinds of open source projects use J2EE stuff, other than the
infrastructure projects themselves?

http://www.jboss.org/developers/join
http://rollerweblogger.org/page/project
http://java-source.net/
http://jonas.objectweb.org/

 

[Maryellen]

"If you came into my shop able to demonstrate competence, where you
could
deploy an EJB, a Servlet, a JSP page that calls a custom Taglib,
describe an understanding of a few design patterns like MVC, configure
a
database pool under JBoss, map a Hibernate descriptor to an object and
a
table, and make JUnit insert, update, retreive, and remove that
persistent object, we would have no more technical questions for you.
If you can do all that, nobody cares if you learned it from a book.
That's where everyone else learned it, maybe with the occasional
day-long course here and there. "
James,
I am putting together an article on the best practices of hiring
manager and this is such a helpful piece of information! Would I be
correct in assuming as you said "nobody cares if you learned it from a
book" meaning you would hire recent grads as long as they could fit
those technical parameters? Just curious, if I were to prescreen for
these qualities prior to sending you a candidate (if you were a manager
I was working with), then you would appreciate that?? Of course, my
next question would be, in what way would you want me to prescreen for
those qualities? Clearly you are an exceptional manager that would hire
talent, and brains and be willing to help someone acclimate to
corporate culture.
Maryellen O

 

[James McGill]

Would I be
correct in assuming as you said "nobody cares if you learned it from a
book" meaning you would hire recent grads as long as they could fit
those technical parameters?

I prefer experience to education. "Recent grads" tend to have 3
semesters of Calculus, a year of Physics, two or three courses in
Discrete Math and Algorithm proofs, and maybe a sum total of several
months of actual programming experience.

I am much more interested in someone who has been programming in a
production environment for ten hours a day over the last five to seven
years. Much of the time, that person also has a CS degree, and most of
the time almost nothing of that education is really useful.

Clearly you are an exceptional manager that would hire
talent, and brains and be willing to help someone acclimate to
corporate culture.

I'm not a manager, I'm a business software architect. But I am a
gatekeeper with go/no-go authority on new hires. It's a small
department in a big company, quarterly project cycles with 8 developers,
and direct P&L responsibilities for our products (that means we get our
own budget and our own headcount, and we sink or swim on the choices we
make.)

 

[Roedy Green]

I am a quick learner. I graduated with a PhD in biology and switched to
computer science.

see http://mindprod.com/projects/projects.html
and tackle a project using these advanced technologies even if they
don't really merit it. You will then have practical experience and
something to show to prove you have.

 

[Maryellen]

James,
Thank you for your feedback. Not only did you help me to understand the
process of screening for programmers and recent grads or not, but of
the hiring processes in your specific group. Quarterly project cycles
looks like you all are working hard; far more rigerous that annual!!
Thank goodness you have 8 good developers, I can see why it is so
important to have extremely good processes in your hiring.
Curious, how many phone screens before you bring them in and white
board them?
If I am imposing, please let me know, I will stop asking
This is great information for my article! I can/will quote you, only if
you are open to that. Otherwise, the information gathering is
wonderful.
Maryellen

 

[James McGill]

James,
Thank you for your feedback. Not only did you help me to understand the
process of screening for programmers and recent grads or not, but of
the hiring processes in your specific group. Quarterly project cycles
looks like you all are working hard; far more rigerous that annual!!

Yes! What's new to us is the P&L. Our departments now operate like
small businesses, instead of like tightly integrated pieces of a large
corporate monolith. This is a big deal to us, because it puts us in a
position of real authority, we get to take risks, and keep rewards.
I know this scenario is uncommon, but the nature of our product makes it
possible.

Thank goodness you have 8 good developers, I can see why it is so
important to have extremely good processes in your hiring.

Some of us have worked together for more than five years, and a couple
for less than a year.

Curious, how many phone screens before you bring them in and white
board them?

Our recruiters screen, and I don't know how many they send to us. We
try to keep them clear as to the meaning and significance of our
requirements, and we don't expect them to do too much technical
evaluation. Occasionally we will get someone on the team from a
referral, and, about once a year, we hire an intern from a local
university. This year, our intern is totally dedicated to Quality
Control. (This is part of our organization becoming more directly
responsible for our product.)

We've had as many as "dozens" of conference calls, and only four or five
face-to-face interviews, for senior staff. Most people who get to that
point are well-qualified, and the selection process has been difficult.
We're not the highest-paying opportunity, so that has helped narrow down
the field on a number of occasions.

The last time we had an open rec for a position that wasn't "senior" was
long enough ago, that the person we hired had developed enough
experience to be promoted twice When we do hire someone, they tend
to stay, and we've learned to recognize what we're looking for aside
from technical merit and experience.

If I am imposing, please let me know, I will stop asking
This is great information for my article! I can/will quote you, only if
you are open to that. Otherwise, the information gathering is

I don't want to disclose who I work for: Many people on the newsgroups
already know that, but it's not something I like to broadcast. Aside
from that, I wear my personality on my shirt sleeve and I'm accustomed
to being quoted. I don't think I've disclosed anything confidential,
but at the same time, I certainly do not want my comments to be
construed as representing my employer.


James