A simple question turns into badgering.....again

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Richard, Oct 19, 2003.

  1. Richard

    Richard Guest

    Why is it when someone asks a simple question, and because brucie doesn't
    like what the poster is asking about, it turns into a badgering affair?
    "bender" asked a simple question as to why his menu wasn't working properly.
    "brucie" turns around and chastises "bender" for using javascript and worse,
    a drop down menu.
    Then others chime in and badger "bender" even more.
    This is not about helping someone, this is a personal vendetta about
    personal dislikes which has no business in the thread.

    Then brucie makes a comment about how 100 million people have their JS
    turned off anyway.
    I'd say that 95% of users don't even know how to turn it off.
    Spend some time in 24hoursupport.helpdesk and you'll find out quickly just
    how dumb and lazy people are.
    Many of the questions asked can be answered by the user simply by clicking
    on the menu bar and they won't even do that much.
    "Duh, how do I set up a second mail account on my OE?"
    "Duh, how did you do the first one?"

    And as I have found over the years in various groups, there is always a
    little cliche of "regulars" who always seem to say, if you're gonna use this
    group, you do what we say or get the hell out.
    Apparently, there are a few in this group with that same mentality.

    Nobody put you in charge. You are here as a volunteer just as any poster is.
    If you can't be helpful, say so.
    Don't be tellin people they can't do this or that when 10,000 sites are
    already doing it.
    This is a discussion forum, not your personal badgering playground.

    <end of rant>
    Richard, Oct 19, 2003
    #1
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  2. Richard

    Kris Guest

    In article <>, "Richard" <anom@anom>
    wrote:

    > This is a discussion forum, not your personal badgering playground.


    This is not a helpdesk either. We are discussing. You disagree, fine,
    that is your perogative. You want to shut up the discussion, go
    elsewhere.

    --
    Kris
    erlands (nl)
    Kris, Oct 19, 2003
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Richard wrote:

    > Then brucie makes a comment about how 100 million people have their JS
    > turned off anyway.
    > I'd say that 95% of users don't even know how to turn it off.


    Then presumably 95% don't know how to turn it on either.

    --
    Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
    Contact Me - http://www.goddamn.co.uk/tobyink/?id=132
    Toby A Inkster, Oct 19, 2003
    #3
  4. Richard wrote:

    > Why is it when someone asks a simple question, and because brucie doesn't
    > like what the poster is asking about, it turns into a badgering affair?


    You are quite welcome to use your killfile.

    > "bender" asked a simple question as to why his menu wasn't working
    > properly. "brucie" turns around and chastises "bender" for using
    > javascript and worse, a drop down menu.


    It was a valid solution to the problem, even if it wasn't one you liked.

    > Then others chime in and badger "bender" even more.
    > This is not about helping someone, this is a personal vendetta about
    > personal dislikes which has no business in the thread.


    It seems to be turning in to an interesting disussion on the problems
    involved in drop down menus. Give it time and some solutions might be
    found.

    > Then brucie makes a comment about how 100 million people have their JS
    > turned off anyway.
    > I'd say that 95% of users don't even know how to turn it off.


    Brucie's comment has been backed up by statistics. I don't happen to believe
    them, but its better then speculation based on ...

    > Spend some time in 24hoursupport.helpdesk and you'll find out quickly just
    > how dumb and lazy people are.


    .... and this accounts for the proportion of the population who are able to
    solve their own problems without asking for help - how?

    > This is a discussion forum, not your personal badgering playground.


    Pot. Kettle. Black.

    --
    David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/
    David Dorward, Oct 19, 2003
    #4
  5. Richard

    DU Guest

    Richard wrote:

    > Why is it when someone asks a simple question, and because brucie doesn't
    > like what the poster is asking about, it turns into a badgering affair?


    I read Brucie's replies and I entirely agree with Brucie's replies. All
    I could say is that he is a bit crude at times but I absolutely support
    his straightforward style.

    > "bender" asked a simple question as to why his menu wasn't working properly.
    > "brucie" turns around and chastises "bender" for using javascript and worse,
    > a drop down menu.


    Your opinion. Remember that there is no facial expression nor voice tone
    which can be viewed or heard in usenet replies.

    > Then others chime in and badger "bender" even more.
    > This is not about helping someone, this is a personal vendetta about
    > personal dislikes which has no business in the thread.
    >
    > Then brucie makes a comment about how 100 million people have their JS
    > turned off anyway.
    > I'd say that 95% of users don't even know how to turn it off.


    Stats gathered from various independent sources kinda agree on this. At
    least 12% have javascript disabled. I find DHTML menus not reliable for
    other reasons: I can not test these thoroughly in various browsers. And
    it is known that browsers implement differently the DHTML object model.

    In any cases, since a site has to consider accessibility anyway, then
    why not code <link> so that a browser Site Navigation bar will work,
    create a sitemap file since you'll have to do this anyway (it's a WAI
    guideline, I think) and maybe add a simple link indicating the relative
    file position within the tree of the site. E.g.:

    You are here: Home > Section X > Sub-section X1


    > Spend some time in 24hoursupport.helpdesk and you'll find out quickly just
    > how dumb and lazy people are.
    > Many of the questions asked can be answered by the user simply by clicking
    > on the menu bar and they won't even do that much.
    > "Duh, how do I set up a second mail account on my OE?"
    > "Duh, how did you do the first one?"
    >


    90% of all questions which were asked in this newsgroup yesterday could
    have been answered by searching google.com, by reading FAQs and/or by
    reading this newsgroup archives.
    90% of all questions asked today in this newsgroup could be answered by
    searching google.com, by reading FAQs and/or by reading this newsgroup
    archives.
    90% of all questions which will be asked in this newsgroup tomorrow
    could be answered by searching google.com, by reading FAQs and/or by
    reading this newsgroup archives.
    So why do you perceive people answering questions as volunteers at your
    service? alt.html is not a free 24 hours helpdesk.

    > And as I have found over the years in various groups, there is always a
    > little cliche of "regulars" who always seem to say, if you're gonna use this
    > group, you do what we say or get the hell out.
    > Apparently, there are a few in this group with that same mentality.
    >


    It may look that way. But then again, if you want the best available
    answer that will cater for accessibility, usability, cross-browser
    compatibility, compliance with web standards, etc... , then you'll often
    hear the same answers: avoid frames, don't open new windows, don't
    top-post, validate your documents with the W3C validator, don't use
    "javascript:" in links, etc.. Most regulars do say what you'll read by
    yourself and on your own in advanced tutorials (again available on the
    web), in books, in W3C technical recommendations, etc..
    That is unless you demand and expect "Krusty the Clown" or
    "Krusty-burgers" answers and "Yeah.. just do <whatever>" replies.

    > Nobody put you in charge. You are here as a volunteer just as any poster is.
    > If you can't be helpful, say so.
    > Don't be tellin people they can't do this or that when 10,000 sites are
    > already doing it.
    > This is a discussion forum, not your personal badgering playground.
    >
    > <end of rant>
    >


    DU
    --
    Javascript and Browser bugs:
    http://www10.brinkster.com/doctorunclear/
    - Resources, help and tips for Netscape 7.x users and Composer
    - Interactive demos on Popup windows, music (audio/midi) in Netscape 7.x
    http://www10.brinkster.com/doctorunclear/Netscape7/Netscape7Section.html
    DU, Oct 19, 2003
    #5
  6. Richard

    JT Guest

    Richard wrote:

    > Why is it when someone asks a simple question, and because brucie doesn't
    > like what the poster is asking about, it turns into a badgering affair?


    Do what I do Richard, I look for David Doward to answer near the top of the
    thread. If he does answer, he will direct you to where you can find out
    exactly why you should not be doing it, but he does go on to answer the
    question, even if its about frames, tables etc.
    JT, Oct 19, 2003
    #6
  7. Daniel R. Tobias, Oct 19, 2003
    #7
  8. Richard

    TheKeith Guest

    "Richard" <anom@anom> wrote in message news:...
    > Why is it when someone asks a simple question, and because brucie doesn't
    > like what the poster is asking about, it turns into a badgering affair?
    > "bender" asked a simple question as to why his menu wasn't working

    properly.
    > "brucie" turns around and chastises "bender" for using javascript and

    worse,
    > a drop down menu.
    > Then others chime in and badger "bender" even more.
    > This is not about helping someone, this is a personal vendetta about
    > personal dislikes which has no business in the thread.
    >
    > Then brucie makes a comment about how 100 million people have their JS
    > turned off anyway.
    > I'd say that 95% of users don't even know how to turn it off.
    > Spend some time in 24hoursupport.helpdesk and you'll find out quickly just
    > how dumb and lazy people are.
    > Many of the questions asked can be answered by the user simply by clicking
    > on the menu bar and they won't even do that much.
    > "Duh, how do I set up a second mail account on my OE?"
    > "Duh, how did you do the first one?"
    >
    > And as I have found over the years in various groups, there is always a
    > little cliche of "regulars" who always seem to say, if you're gonna use

    this
    > group, you do what we say or get the hell out.
    > Apparently, there are a few in this group with that same mentality.
    >
    > Nobody put you in charge. You are here as a volunteer just as any poster

    is.
    > If you can't be helpful, say so.
    > Don't be tellin people they can't do this or that when 10,000 sites are
    > already doing it.
    > This is a discussion forum, not your personal badgering playground.
    >
    > <end of rant>


    Hey Richard, although I agree with you whole heartedly about some of the
    people in this group, I'm not entirely sure you're not as bad as they are.
    Look at your reply to my ""language-javascript" - not validating" post right
    up above. That was hardly helpful, if not downright obnoxious.
    TheKeith, Oct 19, 2003
    #8
  9. Richard

    Whitecrest Guest

    In article <>, anom@anom says...
    > Why is it when someone asks a simple question, and because brucie doesn't
    > like what the poster is asking about, it turns into a badgering affair?
    > "bender" asked a simple question as to why his menu wasn't working properly.
    > "brucie" turns around and chastises "bender" for using javascript and worse,
    > a drop down menu.....


    Pretty simple actually. brucie want to make sure that the OP is aware
    of this. Many newbies are not. And if you do not take it into
    consideration then you could kill your own site before you even start.

    If burcie tells the OP this, and they are taken back (like this OP was)
    then that is a valid answer to his question. " How do you do it?" Well
    the answer is "You might not do it now that you know this information."

    So it is not badgering, he is answering the question with the answer he
    believes is correct.

    Or I could be totally off the wall and be was badgering, if so, welcome
    to usenet....

    --
    Whitecrest Entertainment
    www.whitecrestent.com
    Whitecrest, Oct 19, 2003
    #9
  10. Richard schrieb:
    > And as I have found over the years in various groups, there is always a
    > little cliche of "regulars"


    Ah! Clique Theory! Where's my link... here you are:
    <http://world.std.com/~Infinity/rightloop/clique.htm>


    > This is a discussion forum, not your personal badgering playground.


    Then stop badgering. You're the only one who didn't like brucies helpful
    reply.


    Matthias
    Matthias Gutfeldt, Oct 19, 2003
    #10
  11. Hear, hear, Richard. Bruce


    "Richard" <anom@anom> wrote in message news:...
    > Why is it when someone asks a simple question, and because brucie doesn't
    > like what the poster is asking about, it turns into a badgering affair?
    > "bender" asked a simple question as to why his menu wasn't working

    properly.
    > "brucie" turns around and chastises "bender" for using javascript and

    worse,
    > a drop down menu.
    > Then others chime in and badger "bender" even more.
    > This is not about helping someone, this is a personal vendetta about
    > personal dislikes which has no business in the thread.
    >
    > Then brucie makes a comment about how 100 million people have their JS
    > turned off anyway.
    > I'd say that 95% of users don't even know how to turn it off.
    > Spend some time in 24hoursupport.helpdesk and you'll find out quickly just
    > how dumb and lazy people are.
    > Many of the questions asked can be answered by the user simply by clicking
    > on the menu bar and they won't even do that much.
    > "Duh, how do I set up a second mail account on my OE?"
    > "Duh, how did you do the first one?"
    >
    > And as I have found over the years in various groups, there is always a
    > little cliche of "regulars" who always seem to say, if you're gonna use

    this
    > group, you do what we say or get the hell out.
    > Apparently, there are a few in this group with that same mentality.
    >
    > Nobody put you in charge. You are here as a volunteer just as any poster

    is.
    > If you can't be helpful, say so.
    > Don't be tellin people they can't do this or that when 10,000 sites are
    > already doing it.
    > This is a discussion forum, not your personal badgering playground.
    >
    > <end of rant>
    >
    >
    Bruce Wallace, Oct 19, 2003
    #11
  12. Bruce Wallace wrote:
    > Hear, hear, Richard. Bruce


    Don't top post, and don't quote a whole long message when you don't need to.
    Leif K-Brooks, Oct 20, 2003
    #12
  13. Richard

    brucie Guest

    In post <>
    Richard said...

    > Why is it when someone asks a simple question, and because brucie doesn't
    > like what the poster is asking about, it turns into a badgering affair?


    it distresses me a great deal that my post come across like that. my
    mental abnormalities that cause (among other things) my inability to
    comprehend how to interact with people, let along some text on a
    screen make a good excuse but in no way make my behavior acceptable. i
    think i'll just go away and die now.

    --
    brucie.
    20/October/2003 10:23:35 am
    brucie, Oct 20, 2003
    #13
  14. Richard

    Guest

    And how are discussions commenced? There are a number of very talented
    people here - and they offer help for free - they can do so - or not as they
    see fit. Those who actually waste their time with complaints about questions
    should find other outlets for the energy they expend doing so - like
    answering the question - Those who find it so important to hock a user is
    merely showing his or her poor breeding.
    , Oct 20, 2003
    #14
  15. Richard

    PeterMcC Guest

    Richard wrote:
    > Why is it when someone asks a simple question, and because brucie
    > doesn't like what the poster is asking about, it turns into a
    > badgering affair? "bender" asked a simple question as to why his menu
    > wasn't working properly. "brucie" turns around and chastises "bender"
    > for using javascript and worse, a drop down menu.
    > Then others chime in and badger "bender" even more.
    > This is not about helping someone, this is a personal vendetta about
    > personal dislikes which has no business in the thread.

    <snip>

    Reply to question about showing text in a placeholder whilst the image
    downloads:
    <quote>
    boring boring boring. just another sampling of websites of major companies
    everybody has been to a dozen times a day.
    not exactly anything new or unique.
    </unquote>

    As you'll see, it's easy to give the impression - inadvertently I'm sure -
    that one's reply is not helping someone and that the reply is a personal
    vendetta about personal dislikes which had no business in the thread.

    And you missed what I find the most irritating feature of brucie's posts -
    he's usually right. That's what really annoys me :)


    --
    PeterMcC
    If you feel that any of the above is incorrect,
    inappropriate or offensive in any way,
    please ignore it and accept my apologies.
    PeterMcC, Oct 20, 2003
    #15
  16. Richard

    Mark Jones Guest

    "Richard" <anom@anom> wrote in message news:...
    > Nobody put you in charge. You are here as a volunteer just as any poster

    is.
    > If you can't be helpful, say so.
    > Don't be tellin people they can't do this or that when 10,000 sites are
    > already doing it.
    > This is a discussion forum, not your personal badgering playground.

    Some people on here want people to build web sites only
    the way they personally would. These people need to
    move over to the CIWAH newsgroup if that is how they
    want to behave.
    Mark Jones, Oct 21, 2003
    #16
  17. Richard

    Mark Jones Guest

    "Toby A Inkster" <> wrote in message
    news:p...
    > Richard wrote:
    >
    > > Then brucie makes a comment about how 100 million people have their JS
    > > turned off anyway.
    > > I'd say that 95% of users don't even know how to turn it off.

    >
    > Then presumably 95% don't know how to turn it on either.

    MSIE comes with it turned on as default.
    Mark Jones, Oct 21, 2003
    #17
  18. Mark Jones wrote:
    > ...
    > Some people on here want people to build web sites only
    > the way they personally would.


    That reads like you think that's a bad thing - would you wish to recieve
    advice from someone who isn't confident in their chosen field.

    > These people need to
    > move over to the CIWAH newsgroup if that is how they
    > want to behave.


    they do - believe me, they do. these damn evangelists get everywhere
    polluting the net with their talk of standards, accrssibility and flexible
    layouts. You know what's worst of all - more and more people are beginning
    to get the message. I'm not just talking about net-savvy folk, no I mean
    ordinary decent business folk whose only contact with the web is via the PC
    their off-spring cobbled together from old bits of string and scrap metal.

    Frightening ain't it - it's a good job the world still needs print.

    toodle-pip.
    --
    William Tasso - http://WilliamTasso.com
    William Tasso, Oct 21, 2003
    #18
  19. Mark Jones wrote:

    >> Then presumably 95% don't know how to turn it on either.


    > MSIE comes with it turned on as default.


    More then a few companies turn it off as policy.

    --
    David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/
    David Dorward, Oct 21, 2003
    #19
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