A story about Python... sort of

Discussion in 'Python' started by Max M, Jul 3, 2003.

  1. Max M

    Max M Guest

    There is a story today on Slashdot


    Open Source Project Management Lessons
    ======================================
    http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/07/02/1817220&mode=flat&tid=185

    "Paul Baranowski takes a moment to reflect on Open Source Project
    Management in his blog. His reflections are based on the first two years
    of the Peek-a-booty project." Interesting comments on media coverage,
    choice of programming language, when to release a project, and more.


    In that article Paul Baranowski has a list of lessons. One being

    Engineering Lessons
    -------------------
    1. C/C++ is no longer a viable development language


    He doesn't really say in the article what language should be used
    instead. But there is a link to another page:

    Which Language Do You Recommend?
    ================================
    http://peek-a-booty.org/Docs/WhichLanguageDoYouRecommend.htm


    And guess which language it is?


    regards Max M
     
    Max M, Jul 3, 2003
    #1
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  2. Max M

    Egor Bolonev Guest

    Hello, Max!
    You wrote on Thu, 03 Jul 2003 11:17:30 +0200:

    MM> There is a story today on Slashdot

    [Sorry, skipped]

    MM> And guess which language it is?

    InterEnglish?

    With best regards, Egor Bolonev. E-mail: [ru eo en]
     
    Egor Bolonev, Jul 3, 2003
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Max M

    Max Khesin Guest

    import flame.*
    import sorry.*
    Ok, with all my respect to python, the stuff about C++ is a bunch of hooey.
    Compilation time is the problem? Give me a break.
    1) separate compilation?
    2) precompiled headers?
    3) tools that allow cluster compilation?
    4) ever read 'large-scale c++ development' by Lacos? a must for large c++
    project. letter-envelope idiom to help compilation...etc.
    Anyway, if you are coding so fast that compilation time becomes a serious
    problem you are either
    a) the smartest and fastest programmer on earth
    b) are not thinking enough

    c++ is great when execution speed and memory efficiency is a must. It is
    hard to learn, but there are great benefits, and do you really want halfwits
    (who can't learn it) involved on your project? It also (by design) makes
    previous C programmers productive very fast. Empirically - just look at all
    the C++ projects on SF!

    max.


    --
    ========================================
    Max Khesin, software developer -

    [check out our image compression software at www.cvisiontech.com, JBIG2-PDF
    compression @
    www.cvisiontech.com/cvistapdf.html]


    "Max M" <> wrote in message
    news:3f03f430$0$97222$...
    > There is a story today on Slashdot
    >
    >
    > Open Source Project Management Lessons
    > ======================================
    >

    http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/07/02/1817220&mode=flat&tid
    =185
    >
    > "Paul Baranowski takes a moment to reflect on Open Source Project
    > Management in his blog. His reflections are based on the first two years
    > of the Peek-a-booty project." Interesting comments on media coverage,
    > choice of programming language, when to release a project, and more.
    >
    >
    > In that article Paul Baranowski has a list of lessons. One being
    >
    > Engineering Lessons
    > -------------------
    > 1. C/C++ is no longer a viable development language
    >
    >
    > He doesn't really say in the article what language should be used
    > instead. But there is a link to another page:
    >
    > Which Language Do You Recommend?
    > ================================
    > http://peek-a-booty.org/Docs/WhichLanguageDoYouRecommend.htm
    >
    >
    > And guess which language it is?
    >
    >
    > regards Max M
    >
     
    Max Khesin, Jul 3, 2003
    #3
  4. Max M

    Max Khesin Guest

    I am not a TDD expert, but from what I understand TDD applies to lower-level
    code, not to design. Design usually spans separate modules and could have
    serious impact on the compilation time, while lower-level code can be
    compiled/tested very quickly, albeit not as quickly as python. And yes, many
    solutions do indicate that there WAS a problem, but since the solutions
    actually do work, the problem is not sufficient (IMO) to be a deal breaker
    in terms of programming language choice.
    max.

    --
    ========================================
    Max Khesin, software developer -

    [check out our image compression software at www.cvisiontech.com, JBIG2-PDF
    compression @
    www.cvisiontech.com/cvistapdf.html]
     
    Max Khesin, Jul 3, 2003
    #4
  5. Max M

    Max Khesin Guest

    "BearMan" <> wrote in message
    news:FiZMa.2097$...
    > Not to mention all the time spent recompiling through out the debugging

    and
    > troubleshooting process. Has Max ever programmed in Python? How about
    > Assembly?


    Yes to both in varying degree.

    > The fact of the matter is there is no such thing as one ULTIMATE language.

    A
    > real programmer will have mastered several languages so as to integrate

    the
    > best features for any given situation.
    >
    > IMHO


    I am not sure where we disagree. This is exactly my point. The statement
    "
    Engineering Lessons
    -------------------
    1. C/C++ is no longer a viable development language
    "
    is pure rubbish. C++ is still great for certain kinds of projects, and there
    are lots of open-source and proprietary projects to prove this. I mean, is
    Linux (or Windows) 'not a viable project'?? As I said, this is a very
    narrow-minded and conceited statement: rubbish.

    max.
     
    Max Khesin, Jul 3, 2003
    #5
  6. Max M

    BearMan Guest

    Agreed...
     
    BearMan, Jul 3, 2003
    #6
  7. Max M

    Dave Brueck Guest

    On Thursday 03 July 2003 07:18 am, Peter Hansen wrote:
    > Max Khesin wrote:
    > > import flame.*
    > > import sorry.*
    > > Ok, with all my respect to python, the stuff about C++ is a bunch of
    > > hooey. Compilation time is the problem? Give me a break.
    > > 1) separate compilation?
    > > 2) precompiled headers?
    > > 3) tools that allow cluster compilation?
    > > 4) ever read 'large-scale c++ development' by Lacos? a must for large c++
    > > project. letter-envelope idiom to help compilation...etc.

    >
    > Sounds to me that if they've come up with so many and such a wide
    > range of optimizations to improve compilation time, then it clearly *is*
    > a problem...


    Yep! I just read an article in the July issue of Game Developer that mentioned
    this topic (item #3 above) in passing. It was a post-mortem of the project
    and they cited as one of their life-savers a tool that used all computers in
    the office to assist in the compilation of the game - a compilation farm
    basically - so that the full rebuild of the game could be reduced to only 3
    minutes. Obviously you don't need to do a "rebuild all" for every change to
    the code, but compilation and link time is a very real cost, especially as
    the project size grows. Even for small projects though, I'm much more likely
    to try out small, incremental changes in a language like Python than when I
    did C++ or Java because it's just so quick and easy to try it out.

    -Dave
     
    Dave Brueck, Jul 3, 2003
    #7
  8. Max M

    F. GEIGER Guest

    > (who can't learn it) involved on your project? It also (by design) makes
    > previous C programmers productive very fast. Empirically - just look at

    all

    [OT] That's not a pro, that's a con on the C++ side. And actually that's the
    reason why there's so much bad C++ software. A C programmer first has to
    forget C to be able to program in C++ - well, to be able to program OO in
    C++.

    Best regards
    Franz GEIGER

    "Max Khesin" <> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
    news:KwWMa.3332$...
    > import flame.*
    > import sorry.*
    > Ok, with all my respect to python, the stuff about C++ is a bunch of

    hooey.
    > Compilation time is the problem? Give me a break.
    > 1) separate compilation?
    > 2) precompiled headers?
    > 3) tools that allow cluster compilation?
    > 4) ever read 'large-scale c++ development' by Lacos? a must for large c++
    > project. letter-envelope idiom to help compilation...etc.
    > Anyway, if you are coding so fast that compilation time becomes a serious
    > problem you are either
    > a) the smartest and fastest programmer on earth
    > b) are not thinking enough
    >
    > c++ is great when execution speed and memory efficiency is a must. It is
    > hard to learn, but there are great benefits, and do you really want

    halfwits
    > (who can't learn it) involved on your project? It also (by design) makes
    > previous C programmers productive very fast. Empirically - just look at

    all
    > the C++ projects on SF!
    >
    > max.
    >
    >
    > --
    > ========================================
    > Max Khesin, software developer -
    >
    > [check out our image compression software at www.cvisiontech.com,

    JBIG2-PDF
    > compression @
    > www.cvisiontech.com/cvistapdf.html]
    >
    >
    > "Max M" <> wrote in message
    > news:3f03f430$0$97222$...
    > > There is a story today on Slashdot
    > >
    > >
    > > Open Source Project Management Lessons
    > > ======================================
    > >

    >

    http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/07/02/1817220&mode=flat&tid
    > =185
    > >
    > > "Paul Baranowski takes a moment to reflect on Open Source Project
    > > Management in his blog. His reflections are based on the first two years
    > > of the Peek-a-booty project." Interesting comments on media coverage,
    > > choice of programming language, when to release a project, and more.
    > >
    > >
    > > In that article Paul Baranowski has a list of lessons. One being
    > >
    > > Engineering Lessons
    > > -------------------
    > > 1. C/C++ is no longer a viable development language
    > >
    > >
    > > He doesn't really say in the article what language should be used
    > > instead. But there is a link to another page:
    > >
    > > Which Language Do You Recommend?
    > > ================================
    > > http://peek-a-booty.org/Docs/WhichLanguageDoYouRecommend.htm
    > >
    > >
    > > And guess which language it is?
    > >
    > >
    > > regards Max M
    > >

    >
    >
     
    F. GEIGER, Jul 3, 2003
    #8
  9. Max M

    Max Khesin Guest

    [ot continued..] Re: A story about Python... sort of


    > [OT] That's not a pro, that's a con on the C++ side. And actually that's

    the
    > reason why there's so much bad C++ software. A C programmer first has to
    > forget C to be able to program in C++ - well, to be able to program OO in
    > C++.


    Well, it is documented as one of the original design goals of the language,
    if I remember correctly. It is certainly implicitly a goal considering the
    sacrifices made to preserve C as a subset.
    I think it was important in getting a lot of people on board with c++, but
    it certainly there are many problems with it, including the one you
    mentioned. Of course the problems would not exist if C++ was never accepted.
    It is similar to saying 'how dare my parents embarass me by having sex'.
    Take it up with Bjarne :)

    max.

    > Best regards
    > Franz GEIGER








    --
    ========================================
    Max Khesin, software developer -

    [check out our image compression software at www.cvisiontech.com, JBIG2-PDF
    compression @
    www.cvisiontech.com/cvistapdf.html]
     
    Max Khesin, Jul 3, 2003
    #9
  10. Max M

    Cliff Wells Guest

    On Thu, 2003-07-03 at 06:50, Max Khesin wrote:
    > import flame.*
    > import sorry.*
    > Ok, with all my respect to python, the stuff about C++ is a bunch of hooey.
    > Compilation time is the problem? Give me a break.


    It is *a* problem. I'll agree that it's one of the least.

    > 1) separate compilation?
    > 2) precompiled headers?
    > 3) tools that allow cluster compilation?
    > 4) ever read 'large-scale c++ development' by Lacos? a must for large c++
    > project. letter-envelope idiom to help compilation...etc.
    > Anyway, if you are coding so fast that compilation time becomes a serious
    > problem you are either
    > a) the smartest and fastest programmer on earth
    > b) are not thinking enough


    Or making simple typos.

    > c++ is great when execution speed and memory efficiency is a must. It is
    > hard to learn, but there are great benefits, and do you really want halfwits
    > (who can't learn it) involved on your project? It also (by design) makes
    > previous C programmers productive very fast.


    I won't disagree that there is a place for languages like C++.
    Developing entire applications isn't it.

    > Empirically - just look at all the C++ projects on SF!


    And what percentage of those are incomplete, abandoned, or simply
    unusable?

    --
    Cliff Wells, Software Engineer
    Logiplex Corporation (www.logiplex.net)
    (503) 978-6726 (800) 735-0555
     
    Cliff Wells, Jul 3, 2003
    #10
  11. Max M

    Roy Smith Guest

    Dave Brueck <> wrote:
    > If Python were to become too slow or too weird I'd migrate to
    > another high-level language


    I can certainly see situations were Python might be too slow, but too
    weird? When would it be too weird?
     
    Roy Smith, Jul 3, 2003
    #11
  12. "Dave Brueck" <> wrote

    > > I
    > > mean, is Linux (or Windows) 'not a viable project'??

    >
    > Well, again, neither of those are "applications level" projects.


    There is a rather large industry which I'll call "computer games" that is
    rather CPU intensive, and AFAIK the vast majority of those games are written
    in C/C++. It really depends on the definition of "application level". If
    we're only including things like word processors and web browsers in the
    "application level", then there isn't a great need for C++ in the
    "application level", but there are certainly areas where speed and memory
    efficiency is important.

    I will admit that I'm getting tired of writing a lot of the support code,
    debugging, etc., most of which Python provides for "free".
     
    Russell Reagan, Jul 4, 2003
    #12
  13. Max M

    Aahz Guest

    In article <Yg3Na.97773$R73.11565@sccrnsc04>,
    Russell Reagan <> wrote:
    >
    >There is a rather large industry which I'll call "computer games" that
    >is rather CPU intensive, and AFAIK the vast majority of those games are
    >written in C/C++. It really depends on the definition of "application
    >level". If we're only including things like word processors and web
    >browsers in the "application level", then there isn't a great need for
    >C++ in the "application level", but there are certainly areas where
    >speed and memory efficiency is important.


    At the same time, more and more of those games are switching to using
    C/C++ only for the rendering engine and using a scripting language (Lua
    or Python) for the gameplay itself.
    --
    Aahz () <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/

    Usenet is not a democracy. It is a weird cross between an anarchy and a
    dictatorship.
     
    Aahz, Jul 4, 2003
    #13
  14. Russell Reagan wrote:
    > "F. GEIGER" <> wrote
    >
    >
    >>[OT] That's not a pro, that's a con on the C++ side. And actually that's

    >
    > the
    >
    >>reason why there's so much bad C++ software. A C programmer first has to
    >>forget C to be able to program in C++ - well, to be able to program OO in
    >>C++.

    >
    >
    > C++ is not an OO language. It is a multi-paradigm language that happens to
    > support OO features. No one is required to program OO in C++. It's even very
    > debatable if it's better to program OO in C++.


    We are getting very philosophical here and I guess we are getting a
    little off-topic, but what is an OO language? Isn't one that supports OO
    features? Ok, You can write C code and compile it with a C++ compiler,
    but does it disqualify C++ as being a OO language?

    The advantages you talk about writing C and using a C++ compiler are
    pretty weak. C++ is certainly not just about the "typedef" feature... It
    is a very powerfull language that can be used to express exactly what
    you want the computer to do, and in the same time kind of abstract
    details to a level where you can still see what your program was written
    for. Agreed, it is a terrificly complex language all together, but it
    has its use. If you actually respect the thousand rules from M. Meyer
    plus a few from M. Lakos, you can build very reliable and stable
    applications. If you are a genius or have some technique and experience,
    you can even have a somewhat bigger code where you still have an overview.

    The big disadvantage to its C compatibility is that lots of people
    beleive they have C++ experience and present themselves at C++ jobs. You
    just need an IT management which has no clue about OO technology/C++
    (managers that understand anything at this level are in minority) and
    you soon have a C programmer who used a C++ compiler converted into a
    Java programmer. Little after you will see something really funny, C
    compiled by a Java programmer. Is Java therefore not a OO language? I
    mean Java will allow C programmers to build classes with only static
    methods, with classes of 6000 lines without constructor and all
    variables declared as public class members? I have seen this, and I am
    not exagerating at all in the description... it actually took me two
    days to understand why I did not understand how the programmer cut the
    program. Yes, I was naive enough to think one can only write OO in Java,
    like in the advert.

    Anyway, let us talk about something else, I hate being reminded how
    often our IT industry has been guarenteeing our jobs life-time by making
    every thing more complicated and more expensive instead of making things
    simpler and cheaper as we were entrusted to do. Note that I do not think
    we do that on purpose :)

    That said, python does make life easier in many occasions, so there is
    maybe some hope that a little tiny community of our IT industry is not
    reaping off our dear sponsors (IT users including IT people).

    Thanks pyguys for your beautiful contribution, please continue just as
    you are now. You have been doing a wonderful job. If you could only
    replace VB for all the usages it has now, and convince the planet of
    that as well, I would be thankful for ever. :)

    Ben.
     
    Behrang Dadsetan, Jul 4, 2003
    #14
  15. Max M

    Paul Boddie Guest

    "Max Khesin" <> wrote in message news:<dGZMa.5172$>...
    >
    > I am not sure where we disagree. This is exactly my point. The statement
    > "
    > Engineering Lessons
    > -------------------
    > 1. C/C++ is no longer a viable development language
    > "
    > is pure rubbish. C++ is still great for certain kinds of projects, and there
    > are lots of open-source and proprietary projects to prove this.


    I wouldn't agree with you unreservedly here. In many respects, the
    choice of C++ for projects is often an educational problem with the
    developers - people choose it because it's what they know, potentially
    not very well in many cases. So one could say that it's really
    something they just know something about - it seems like the
    right/safe choice, presumably because their peers/acquaintances who
    are just as badly informed tell them so.

    Those of us who are used to more high-level languages would think
    twice about writing a large application using a language/library
    combination without decent (ie. modern) support for memory management,
    for example. I can imagine that many developers find it challenging
    and even rewarding to think up interesting schemes for allocating and
    freeing memory - perhaps they even think that this (and lots of other
    unnecessary wheel reinvention) is what programming is all about.
    Personally, I'd rather get on with implementing the actual system
    concerned.

    So, I'd rephrase the original statement: C/C++ are frequently
    suboptimal choices for application development. Why? Poor support for
    near-essential features found in contemporary languages combined with
    the absence of timely, effective standardisation of useful library
    functionality.

    Paul
     
    Paul Boddie, Jul 4, 2003
    #15
  16. Max M

    John J. Lee Guest

    (Aahz) writes:

    > In article <Yg3Na.97773$R73.11565@sccrnsc04>,
    > Russell Reagan <> wrote:

    [...]
    > At the same time, more and more of those games are switching to using
    > C/C++ only for the rendering engine and using a scripting language (Lua
    > or Python) for the gameplay itself.


    Is this true of big-$ commercial games? What sort of market share do
    high-level / interpreted languages have there?

    Never having been a (graphical) games player, I don't know the first
    thing about how games developers do things.


    John
     
    John J. Lee, Jul 4, 2003
    #16
  17. Max M

    Aahz Guest

    In article <>, John J. Lee <> wrote:
    > (Aahz) writes:
    >>
    >> At the same time, more and more of those games are switching to using
    >> C/C++ only for the rendering engine and using a scripting language (Lua
    >> or Python) for the gameplay itself.

    >
    >Is this true of big-$ commercial games? What sort of market share do
    >high-level / interpreted languages have there?


    Depends what you mean by big-$. Humongous Entertainment has recently
    switched to requiring Python for all new games. Lua is even more
    prevalent; see http://www.lua.org/uses.html
    --
    Aahz () <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/

    Usenet is not a democracy. It is a weird cross between an anarchy and a
    dictatorship.
     
    Aahz, Jul 4, 2003
    #17
  18. Max M

    Peter Hansen Guest

    Aahz wrote:
    >
    > In article <>, John J. Lee <> wrote:
    > > (Aahz) writes:
    > >>
    > >> At the same time, more and more of those games are switching to using
    > >> C/C++ only for the rendering engine and using a scripting language (Lua
    > >> or Python) for the gameplay itself.

    > >
    > >Is this true of big-$ commercial games? What sort of market share do
    > >high-level / interpreted languages have there?

    >
    > Depends what you mean by big-$. Humongous Entertainment has recently
    > switched to requiring Python for all new games. Lua is even more
    > prevalent; see http://www.lua.org/uses.html


    Well, you can't get any bigger than "humongous", can you? ;-)
     
    Peter Hansen, Jul 4, 2003
    #18
  19. Max M

    Dave Brueck Guest

    On Thursday 03 July 2003 11:48 pm, Russell Reagan wrote:
    > "Dave Brueck" <> wrote
    >
    > > > I
    > > > mean, is Linux (or Windows) 'not a viable project'??

    > >
    > > Well, again, neither of those are "applications level" projects.

    >
    > There is a rather large industry which I'll call "computer games" that is
    > rather CPU intensive, and AFAIK the vast majority of those games are
    > written in C/C++. It really depends on the definition of "application
    > level". If we're only including things like word processors and web
    > browsers in the "application level", then there isn't a great need for C++
    > in the
    > "application level",


    Actually, games are a particularly good example to illustrate the point:

    1) In the movement away from a lower-level language, games are probably one of
    the last hold-outs since performance often means so much. Still, even games
    do make the transition - the transition away from assembly being the main
    example.

    2) Even the most performance-intensive games of today are already
    transitioning towards higher-level languages - is there any major
    first-person shooter or real-time strategy game coming out these days that
    doesn't boast a powerful scripting language? With each new generation of
    games the developers try to push more and more of the functionality into
    their scripting engine leaving as little as possible behind in C/C++ - the
    render loop, *some* of the AI, etc. Not only is the game customizable by the
    customers, the developers themselves prefer it because of fewer bugs and it
    makes it much easier to try new and cool stuff out.

    3) More and more of the performance-intensive work is handled by hardware
    nowadays anyway - both video and audio. Furthermore, the game itself usually
    relies on a pretty rich and powerful supporting library like OpenGL or even
    DirectX, which depending on the route you take can supply a ton of the
    functionality that the game developer would normally write in C or C++.

    4) All of the above mean that in many cases you already *can* do some pretty
    elaborate games in higher-level languages (the games listed on Pygame are a
    great example), and there's every indication that the trend will continue.

    There came a time when it was no longer economically viable to develop an
    entire game in assembly, and IMO we've *already* passed the point where it's
    no longer economically viable to develop most games entirely in C++ - the
    time to market is too long, it's too expensive to add new features,
    recovering from early incorrect decisions is too costly, etc. Games are
    moving to higher-level languages as much as they can because it's a
    competitive advantage to do so.

    > but there are certainly areas where speed and memory
    > efficiency is important.


    Oh, nobody disagrees with that. But due to increases in efficiency and
    decreases in prices, the number of cases is shrinking wherein speed and
    memory constraints require you to drop to a lower-level language.

    -Dave
     
    Dave Brueck, Jul 7, 2003
    #19
  20. Max M

    Ben Finney Guest

    On Mon, 07 Jul 2003 02:02:06 GMT, Russell Reagan wrote:
    > Anyway, I know of one chess program written in python, and it is
    > dreadfully slow compared to *any* program written in C/C++ (that I've
    > seen anyway).


    Have you looked at the code for it? Have you profiled it to see where
    its bottlenecks are? It's often the case that a program is low because
    of poor design, or simply choosing a slow algorithm.

    Until profiling, of course, you can't know which algorithms are too slow
    for the program.

    > The things that make a chess program fast aren't really python's
    > strengths, but hopefully I'm being pessimistic due to my lack of
    > python/c knowledge.


    My suggestion for those who want to write programs that do something
    quickly:

    - Write a program that does the job at all, paying attention to
    simplicity and readability and *no* attention to optimisation.

    - Debug the program so it does everything it's supposed to do, albeit
    slowly.

    - Once the program is correct, and not before, profile it to see where
    it's slow.

    - Pick the biggest bottleneck and make it faster, by one or more of:

    - Choose a faster algorithm, perhaps sacrificing readability or
    simplicity
    - Re-implement in C

    - Iterate the previous step until the program is fast enough or you
    run out of (time|money).

    You'll have a program that is quite readable, except in the places where
    it needs to be fast. In my experience, those places are surprisingly
    few, and are surprisingly different to where you expected them to be.

    > import chess
    > chess.run_program_in_c
    > print "Thanks for playing! Bye!"


    It may well be that all the "real" chess-thinking stuff may be too slow
    in Python; you might end up with the move-evaluation routine in C, for
    example.

    But discover that by profiling a Python implementation first! If it
    turns out to be too slow, at least you've debugged a working algorithm,
    and can treat it as pseudocode for the port to C. If it turns out that
    the bottlenecks are somewhere else entirely, you've saved yourself a
    huge misguided optimisation effort.

    --
    \ "My roommate got a pet elephant. Then it got lost. It's in the |
    `\ apartment somewhere." -- Steven Wright |
    _o__) |
    http://bignose.squidly.org/ 9CFE12B0 791A4267 887F520C B7AC2E51 BD41714B
     
    Ben Finney, Jul 7, 2003
    #20
    1. Advertising

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