A "terminators' club" for clp

[kj]

This is "meta-question" about comp.lang.python. I apologize in
advance if it has been already discussed. Also, I don't know enough
about the underlying mechanics of comp.lang.python, so this may be
*totally unfeasible*, but how about giving a few bona fide *and
frequent* clp posters the ability to *easily* delete spam from the
comp.lang.python server?

Or it could be set up so that at least n > 1 "delete" votes and no
"keep" votes are required to get something nixed. Etc.

This seems simpler than all-out moderation.

("all-out moderation"? now, there's an oxymoron for ya!)

One possible *initial* criterion for selecting these "terminators"
would be the number of posts to clp between, say, January 2009 and
July 2009. The members of this seed set could then select new
members for the terminators' club.

Just a thought.

kynn

 

[Paul Rubin]

frequent* clp posters the ability to *easily* delete spam from the
comp.lang.python server?

Um, this is usenet; there is no comp.lang.python server. Are you
saying you want a moderated newsgroup? Hmm, maybe this group is busy
enough that there is some merit to that idea.

 

[r]

This is "meta-question" about comp.lang.python.  I apologize in
advance if it has been already discussed.  Also, I don't know enough
about the underlying mechanics of comp.lang.python, so this may be
*totally unfeasible*, but how about giving a few bona fide *and
frequent* clp posters the ability to *easily* delete spam from the
comp.lang.python server?

How long you been hanging around here?

There are problems inherent in all moderated groups. When you give
anyone the power to delete post they can use it for good and for evil.
c.l.py like all groups has good and bad followers, spam, and trollers
like anywhere else. What you consider spam and trolling i may consider
freedom of speech although like anyone here i vehemently hate spammers
and would like to put them out of business permanently! Trolls don't
bother me so much because i just skip past their posts -- And there
are many levels of trolling.

However if you are selling something (that is *not* directly python
related) then i think we could *safely* say that you are spamming this
group. Nobody has come here to buy a knockoff Rolex's or Nike tennis
shoes at ten bucks each. If you are posting porn links then we could
*safely* say that porn is in no way applicable to this group and
delete them on that merit. I'm OK with that, but would it stop there?

If you look back through history you will find many instances of the
powerful robbing the innocent peoples of freedoms in the name of good,
or even the name of God, despicable hypocrite's!. Heck people where
murdered by nation states just because of fear and ignorance ("Salem
witch trials" ring a bell, the holocaust ring a bell?, and many many
more sad cases).

So if i had a choice between trollers, spammers, and power hungry
murderers, i'll buy the rolex and listen to x-and-lee's all day long
thank you very much!

Power is corrupting, and absolute power is absolutely corrupting!

 

[kj]

Um, this is usenet; there is no comp.lang.python server. Are you
saying you want a moderated newsgroup? Hmm, maybe this group is busy
enough that there is some merit to that idea.

Sorry, I had a mistaken view of how usenet was implemented. But
yeah, I guess I'm thinking of a moderated newsgroup, but with a
large number of moderators working in parallel, and a very lax
acceptance policy. The goal is to filter out only the obvious
spam, and let through all the other non-spam traffic as quickly as
possible... What do I mean by "obvious spam"? Well, among the
most recent messages (that have survived my killfile policies) I
see the following subject lines:

* Top 10 US mp3 songs.....Cheers
* www.find68.com cheaper nike shoes g-satr kidrobot hoodies ed hardy star red monkey gino green global true religion ed-hardy kidrobot jeans hoodies china supplier wholesaler exporters,manufacture
* "jobs in france" "jobs in france for english people" "jobs in france for foreigners" "jobs in france for australians" "jobs in france for foreigners " "jobs in france for new zealanders" "jobs" "paris jobs" http://jobs-in-fr ance.blogspot.com/
* "germany jobs" "germany job sites" "germany job search" "jobs in germany" "german jobs" "germany jobs it" "germany jobs for foreigners" "germany jobsite" "germany jobs in english" on http://jobs-germany.blogspot.com/

Those look pretty obvious to me.

But, as I already showed, I'm out of my depth here,
so I'd better shut up.

kynn

 

[r]

But, as I already showed, I'm out of my depth here,
so I'd better shut up.

Don't give up so easy! The idea is great, what Paul is saying is that
most people who read this group use newsreaders and that has nothing
to do with google groups. These guy's have kill filters for just this
sort of thing but either way the emails are on their puters so they
have to deal with them on an individual basis. It would be nice
however to clean up the Google group version and rid it of the plagues
of spam infestations.

 

[gil_johnson]

Or it could be set up so that at least n > 1 "delete" votes and no
"keep" votes are required to get something nixed.  Etc.

This seems simpler than all-out moderation.

("all-out moderation"? now, there's an oxymoron for ya!)

How about using a "rank this post" feature? Anybody could rank a post
as spam, and a sufficiently large number of negatives would quickly
draw the attention of someone with the power to kill the message. I
suppose even this is subject to abuse, allowing harassment of a
legitimate poster., but my guess is that the votes against counterfeit
Nike shoes, etc., would outnumber the most energetic "vote troll."
Gil

 

[Alf P. Steinbach]

* gil_johnson:

How about using a "rank this post" feature? Anybody could rank a post
as spam, and a sufficiently large number of negatives would quickly
draw the attention of someone with the power to kill the message. I
suppose even this is subject to abuse, allowing harassment of a
legitimate poster., but my guess is that the votes against counterfeit
Nike shoes, etc., would outnumber the most energetic "vote troll."

The problem with moderation isn't getting rid of spam and trolls etc., but
turnaround time.

In some cases trivial questions cause a flood of essentially identical trivial
responses to pile up before the mods can get at them. And then there's the
dilemma of whether to approve all that or make judgements based on /content/.
The latter leads to a very slippery slope, you really don't want the mods to do
that, plus that in some cases what might appear trivial leads to very fruitful
discussion of not-so-trivial aspects.

But it's not either/or: it's possible to have both an unmoderated group (fast
turnaround, much spam, some heated discussion) and a corresponding moderated
group (slow turnaround, no spam, far less heat, presence of more experts), e.g.
as [comp.lang.c++] and [oomp.lang.c++.moderated].


Cheers & hth.,

- Alf

 

[r]

How about using a "rank this post" feature? Anybody could rank a post
as spam, and a sufficiently large number of negatives would quickly
draw the attention of someone with the power to kill the message. I
suppose even this is subject to abuse, allowing harassment of a
legitimate poster., but my guess is that the votes against counterfeit
Nike shoes, etc., would outnumber the most energetic "vote troll."
Gil

Actually there is a "rank this post" (gotta be careful with that
verbage!) AND a "report this post as spam". Of course it only exists
in GG's and not Usenet. I *do* know that the star system is used quite
frequently, but i doubt anyone bothers to use the "report as spam"
link since it seems have no effect whatsoever.

 

[Paul Rubin]

The problem with moderation isn't getting rid of spam and trolls etc.,
but turnaround time.

There is automatic moderation software that auto-approves any post
from an address that has had one or two posts manually approved.
While that's susceptible to address forgery, the typical spammer
doesn't do that.

 

[Terry Reedy]

Don't give up so easy! The idea is great, what Paul is saying is that
most people who read this group use newsreaders and that has nothing
to do with google groups. These guy's have kill filters for just this
sort of thing but either way the emails are on their puters so they
have to deal with them on an individual basis. It would be nice
however to clean up the Google group version and rid it of the plagues
of spam infestations.

Anyone with a newsreader can, like me, read gmane.comp.python.general,
which mirrors python-list, which now filters out much/most of the spam
on c.l.p from G.g.

To post from g.c.p.g, one must use a real email address and respond once
to an email sent to that address.

So, the only reason to use c.l.p is if one wants to post anonymously,
like the spammers do ;-).

Terry Jan Reedy

 

[Paul Rubin]

To post from g.c.p.g, one must use a real email address and respond
once to an email sent to that address.

So, the only reason to use c.l.p is if one wants to post anonymously,
like the spammers do ;-).

No I don't think so. "Unwilling to disclose email address or enroll
yet another computer account" is not the same as "anonymous".

 

[r]

So, the only reason to use c.l.p is if one wants to post anonymously,
like the spammers do ;-).

I don't think that completely correct. Lots of people find GG's to be
more suited to their news reading pleasures, i am one of them. I hate
to have an email just overflowing with mails all the time. Here in
GG's, i just come and go without worrying about deleting messages or
kill filters or whatever.

Maybe even Guido himself uses GG's? Heck for all we know Guido could
have a "pybot" sending all these spams just so Python's TIOBE index
will increase! ;-)

 

[Terry Reedy]

No I don't think so. "Unwilling to disclose email address or enroll
yet another computer account" is not the same as "anonymous".

There is no 'enrolling' except for hitting reply to an email *when you
first post*, but never to just read. You point your news reader to gmane
just like to any other newsserver. Once you do, you have access to a
couple hundred other Python mailing lists and 1000s of others. I believe
c.l.p is one of the few that also appear on gmane, and only because of
its gateway to/from python-list.

Terry Jan Reedy

 

[Terry Reedy]

I don't think that completely correct. Lots of people find GG's to be
more suited to their news reading pleasures,

I was referring to c.l.p on a nntp newsserver read by a newsreader
program. That was the context of the previous discussion. G.G. is
different, read through a browser (and only that, as far as I know).

i am one of them. I hate

to have an email just overflowing with mails all the time. Here in
GG's, i just come and go without worrying about deleting messages or
kill filters or whatever.

That is why I read python-list and other mailing lists (that are not
available as a g.g.) via gmane.

Terry Jan Reedy

 

[Terry Reedy]

Or if one has an ISP who provides a Usenet feed, like mine does.

Gmane is a nntp news feed, just not a usenet feed. If you can read
usenet, you can read gmane, probably in the time it took you to write
this post -- and get access to 1000s of mirrer mailing lists. I switched
to gmane's mirror of python-list *before* I had to because it was
superior, overall, to my ISP at the time. Hoever, if you like the extra
spam, don't spend the minute it takes. But my comment is directed at
those complaining about it.

Just tell your newsreader to make a new news 'account' for
news.gmane.org or snews.gmane.org (port 563) to use ssl - either at the
corresponding default ports.

tjr

 

[Aahz]

Or if one has an ISP who provides a Usenet feed, like mine does.

Mine does, too.

A pox upon Andrew Cuomo for bashing ISPs in the USA with the stick of
“child pornography†(which he discovered on 88 out of many thousands of
forums). Faced with the unreasonable role of policing Usenet, they shut
it all off <URL:http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-9964895-38.html>.

Actually, my ISP is in New York City.
--
Aahz ([email protected]) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/

[on old computer technologies and programmers] "Fancy tail fins on a
brand new '59 Cadillac didn't mean throwing out a whole generation of
mechanics who started with model As." --Andrew Dalke

 

[Aahz]

There is automatic moderation software that auto-approves any post
from an address that has had one or two posts manually approved.
While that's susceptible to address forgery, the typical spammer
doesn't do that.

There's even auto-mod with e-mail confirmation (similar to subscribing to
a mailing list), see soc.singles.moderated.
--
Aahz ([email protected]) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/

[on old computer technologies and programmers] "Fancy tail fins on a
brand new '59 Cadillac didn't mean throwing out a whole generation of
mechanics who started with model As." --Andrew Dalke

 

[David Bolen]

Anyone with a newsreader can, like me, read gmane.comp.python.general,
which mirrors python-list, which now filters out much/most of the spam
on c.l.p from G.g.

The same is true on some (not sure if it qualifies for many) Usenet
servers. I use news.individual.net for example (for a modest yearly
fee as of a few years ago) and in my experience it does a great job at
filtering spam. I'm sure there are other services that do as well. I
don't have to manage any special filters and don't seem to see any of
the stuff in this group, for example, mentioned in this thread.

I do use gmane for a lot of other lists (including python-dev) that
aren't operated as a Usenet newsgroups and it's an excellent service.

-- David

 

[gil_johnson]

On Nov 14, 7:28 am, gil_johnson <[email protected]> wrote:

Actually there is a "rank this post" (gotta be careful with that
verbage!) AND a "report this post as spam". Of course it only exists
in GG's and not Usenet. I *do* know that the star system is used quite
frequently, but i doubt anyone bothers to use the "report as spam"
link since it seems have no effect whatsoever.

Heh. I should look around more before posting. It does prove your
point, though. The 'spam' button is ubiquitous, but so seldom used
it's forgotten.

Actually, my enthusiasm for my idea faded with a little thought. It is
an extra effort to open spam to get to the 'spam' button, and sends
the message to the spammer that people are, indeed opening their junk.
I'd use it if I opened a message with a deceptive subject.
Gil

 

[Aahz]

Some usenet newsgroups were/are moderated either by a robot, a person,
or a team (as you suggested). But a particular newsgroup has to be set
up that way from the beginning. Last I knew, it wan/is? difficult to
convert an unmoderated group to moderation.

It has gotten exponentially more difficult over the last decade.
--
Aahz ([email protected]) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place.
Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by
definition, not smart enough to debug it." --Brian W. Kernighan