Aboriginal languages & wrapping table cells themselves

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Paula Radetzky, Feb 19, 2006.

  1. I am a linguist who works on aboriginal languages with very few
    speakers. I need to write down their folktales and translate *each*
    word separately, right under it. For example,

    Rubana-cu ya umusalu
    dawn-ed when rained
    'When it dawned, it rained.'

    Obviously, the words in the first and second lines need to line up
    right under each other. Tables are good for that.

    The problem is with stories that are longer than one line. If I
    continue typing the story, I want the TABLE CELLS from Lines 1 AND 2 to
    wrap TOGETHER, as a pair. For example:

    Rubana-cu ya umusalu. Masi sumusumukulu kia. Maaru ucani.
    Ilaku ya
    dawn-ed when rained then enemy came exist
    one I tried

    turukuuka. Ku-aku acalia puritongatonga.
    kill not-I know throw.spear

    'When it dawned, it rained. Then the enemy came. There was one that I
    tried to kill. But I didn't know how to throw the spear.'

    I don't want to create a new table for each line, because I often have
    to cut and past these folktales into documents with different page
    sizes, margins, etc. I don't want to have to redo the tables every
    time; I just want this wrapping capability.

    Does anybody know how to do this, or does anyone know how to work
    around this problem? Or a macro?

    I am trying to use NeoOffice, but if it works only in Word, I'll use
    that.

    Thanks a lot. You're helping to document and save dying languages!
     
    Paula Radetzky, Feb 19, 2006
    #1
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  2. Okay, something got messed up when this message got posted to the
    list--

    "Maaru ucani" [end of line 1] was supposed to be aligned above its
    gloss, "exist one," and "Ilaku ya" [now its own line 2] was supposed to
    be grouped with "turukuuka" [now line 5], and the glosses should have
    read "I tried kill" for "Ilaku ya turukuuka."

    This is *exactly* the sort of problem I have when moving stories from
    one document to another. I'm trying to avoid this by having wrapping
    tables or something of the sort.

    Any ideas?
     
    Paula Radetzky, Feb 19, 2006
    #2
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  3. Paula Radetzky

    Els Guest

    Paula Radetzky wrote:

    > I am a linguist who works on aboriginal languages with very few
    > speakers. I need to write down their folktales and translate *each*
    > word separately, right under it. For example,
    >
    > Rubana-cu ya umusalu
    > dawn-ed when rained
    > 'When it dawned, it rained.'
    >
    > Obviously, the words in the first and second lines need to line up
    > right under each other. Tables are good for that.
    >
    > The problem is with stories that are longer than one line. If I
    > continue typing the story, I want the TABLE CELLS from Lines 1 AND 2 to
    > wrap TOGETHER, as a pair. For example:
    >
    > Rubana-cu ya umusalu. Masi sumusumukulu kia. Maaru ucani.
    > Ilaku ya
    > dawn-ed when rained then enemy came exist
    > one I tried
    >
    > turukuuka. Ku-aku acalia puritongatonga.
    > kill not-I know throw.spear
    >
    > 'When it dawned, it rained. Then the enemy came. There was one that I
    > tried to kill. But I didn't know how to throw the spear.'
    >
    > I don't want to create a new table for each line, because I often have
    > to cut and past these folktales into documents with different page
    > sizes, margins, etc. I don't want to have to redo the tables every
    > time; I just want this wrapping capability.
    >
    > Does anybody know how to do this, or does anyone know how to work
    > around this problem? Or a macro?
    >
    > I am trying to use NeoOffice, but if it works only in Word, I'll use
    > that.
    >
    > Thanks a lot. You're helping to document and save dying languages!



    You can't do that with a table.
    I've made an example to show another option:
    http://here.locusmeus.com/temp/paula.html

    I've tested it in Opera, Firefox and IE6, but MacIE will probably make
    the floats full width, resulting in only one set of words per line.

    --
    Els http://locusmeus.com/
    Sonhos vem. Sonhos vão. O resto é imperfeito.
    - Renato Russo -
     
    Els, Feb 19, 2006
    #3
  4. On Sun, 18 Feb 2006, Paula Radetzky wrote:

    > I am a linguist who works on aboriginal languages with very few
    > speakers. I need to write down their folktales and translate *each*
    > word separately, right under it. For example,
    >
    > Rubana-cu ya umusalu
    > dawn-ed when rained
    > 'When it dawned, it rained.'


    It seems to me that Ruby annotation is just what you need for this.
    http://www.w3.org/TR/ruby/

    Examples here http://www.i18nguy.com/unicode/unicode-example-ruby.html
    work with MSIE for the moment. There is a (somewhat flakey) plugin
    available for Mozilla.

    For the time being, you could perhaps make PDF files to be viewed by
    those whose browsers don't support it.

    For authoring, other than hand-coding the tags, I'm aware that Amaya
    says it supports authoring Ruby annotation, although I haven't tried
    it.
     
    Alan J. Flavell, Feb 19, 2006
    #4
  5. On Sun, 19 Feb 2006, Alan J. Flavell wrote:

    > For the time being, you could perhaps make PDF files to be viewed by
    > those whose browsers don't support it.


    I meant that you could display your Ruby on a browser which *does*
    support it, and print the result to PDF file. Just in case this
    wasn't obvious: I didn't mean two separate authoring processes.
     
    Alan J. Flavell, Feb 19, 2006
    #5
  6. On Sun, 19 Feb 2006, Alan J. Flavell wrote:

    > It seems to me that Ruby annotation is just what you need for this.
    > http://www.w3.org/TR/ruby/


    Hmmm, for your requirements in fact the CSS stylesheet which is
    suggested at:
    http://www.w3.org/People/mimasa/test/schemas/NOTE-ruby-implementation#css2-inline-table
    turns out to be effective.

    With this particular stylesheet, the annotations are positioned above
    the words to which they refer, rather than below, but a slight
    adjustment of the stylesheet could change that if you wanted.

    I've added some colouring to the annotations, but this is of course
    entirely optional! Also I increased the annotation's font size from
    the suggested 60%, to 75%.

    I threw together a quick demonstration, which seems to give reasonable
    results on Mozilla 1.7, Opera 8.52, etc. as well as IE6, and displays
    the desired fallback behaviour on non-supporting (or
    stylesheet-disabled) browsers.

    http://ppewww.ph.gla.ac.uk/~flavell/www/umusalu.html

    In practice of course you should be putting appropriate lang= (or
    xml:lang= if you use XHTML) attributes on all of the affected
    elements.

    regards
     
    Alan J. Flavell, Feb 19, 2006
    #6
  7. Paula Radetzky

    PeterMcC Guest

    Alan J. Flavell wrote in
    <>

    > On Sun, 19 Feb 2006, Alan J. Flavell wrote:
    >
    >> It seems to me that Ruby annotation is just what you need for this.
    >> http://www.w3.org/TR/ruby/

    >
    > Hmmm, for your requirements in fact the CSS stylesheet which is
    > suggested at:
    >

    http://www.w3.org/People/mimasa/test/schemas/NOTE-ruby-implementation#css2-inline-table
    > turns out to be effective.
    >
    > With this particular stylesheet, the annotations are positioned above
    > the words to which they refer, rather than below, but a slight
    > adjustment of the stylesheet could change that if you wanted.
    >
    > I've added some colouring to the annotations, but this is of course
    > entirely optional! Also I increased the annotation's font size from
    > the suggested 60%, to 75%.
    >
    > I threw together a quick demonstration, which seems to give reasonable
    > results on Mozilla 1.7, Opera 8.52, etc. as well as IE6, and displays
    > the desired fallback behaviour on non-supporting (or
    > stylesheet-disabled) browsers.
    >
    > http://ppewww.ph.gla.ac.uk/~flavell/www/umusalu.html
    >
    > In practice of course you should be putting appropriate lang= (or
    > xml:lang= if you use XHTML) attributes on all of the affected
    > elements.


    Kudos

    --
    PeterMcC
    If you feel that any of the above is incorrect,
    inappropriate or offensive in any way,
    please ignore it and accept my apologies.
     
    PeterMcC, Feb 19, 2006
    #7
  8. On Sun, 19 Feb 2006, PeterMcC wrote:

    > > http://ppewww.ph.gla.ac.uk/~flavell/www/umusalu.html

    >
    > Kudos


    Ta! It came out rather well, I thought; but to be honest I only really
    used a search engine and applied what it found (duly credited). I had
    known about Ruby annotation from some time back, but had only started
    looking at it more closely when it came up in discussion (see ciwah
    discussion with subject "ALT for text?" just over a week back).

    Jukka, assuming you'll read this sometime: applying the stylesheet
    (http://ppewww.ph.gla.ac.uk/~flavell/ruby-style.css) to your Ruby
    sample at http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/html/ruby.html works quite
    well in Mozilla, for example, or Opera.
     
    Alan J. Flavell, Feb 19, 2006
    #8
  9. Paula Radetzky

    Spartanicus Guest

    Spartanicus, Feb 19, 2006
    #9
  10. "Paula Radetzky" <> wrote:

    > I need to write down their folktales and translate
    > *each* word separately, right under it.


    A table appears to be natural markup for this, but as you note,...

    > The problem is with stories that are longer than one line. If I
    > continue typing the story, I want the TABLE CELLS from Lines 1 AND
    > 2 to wrap TOGETHER, as a pair.


    I'm not sure whether I understand the description right, but I would
    suggest the approach of using a sequence of two-cell tables (2 rows, 1
    column) floated to the left. You would put each pair in one table, and
    the floating would take care of placing as many items in a row as
    possible for a given canvas width. In a sense, this would simulate
    display: inline-block.

    You could actually do this even in HTML without CSS, though the markup
    would become rather verbose, e.g.

    <table align="left">
    <tr><td align="center" nowrap>Rubana-cu
    <tr><td align="center" nowrap>dawn-ed
    </table>

    but it's simpler to write just

    <table><tr><td>Rubana-cu<tr><td>dawn-ed</table>

    with CSS like

    td { white-space: nowrap;
    text-align: center; }
    table { float: left; }

    (However, the formatting is here so essential that it might be argued
    that it should be done in HTML at least as regards to align="left".)

    This is not quite as elegant as a Ruby approach, but this is simpler
    and extensible: you could have e.g. the original text, pronunciation
    information, and translation, for example, in three rows.

    --
    Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
    Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html
     
    Jukka K. Korpela, Feb 19, 2006
    #10
  11. On Sun, 19 Feb 2006, Spartanicus wrote:

    > "Alan J. Flavell" <> wrote:
    >
    > >http://www.w3.org/People/mimasa/test/schemas/NOTE-ruby-implementation#css2-inline-table
    > >turns out to be effective.

    >
    > Be aware that the "inline-table" value is not supported by Gecko or
    > IE.


    Thanks. The "simple Ruby markup" works pretty well, I'd say, in all
    the browsers I tried (including those which only display the fallback
    behaviour). IE implements it natively, and doesn't seem to let itself
    be disturbed by the trick stylesheet. Mozilla, Firefox and Opera
    produce quite a reasonable rendering, I'd have said.

    But when we get to the "complex Ruby markup", it's a different story.
    MSIE produces a total mess, and there is no fallback behaviour in
    non-supporting browsers.

    I guess it's more by good luck than by design that Mozilla gives an
    impression of doing what was intended. The initially displayed result
    looks strangely convincing, but any attempt to fiddle with it shows
    that the rendering is highly unstable. Strange that the results on
    Mozilla and Firefox are sufficiently different from each other to
    suggest that they must have different code versions in their
    rendering. Equivalent versions of Mozilla on Windows and on Linux
    gave the same results as each other, though.

    If you have any suggestion for improving the practical results, feel
    free. Would you anticipate any benefits by trying to follow the ideas
    which you set out here? -
    http://www.spartanicus.utvinternet.ie/centered_image_gallery_with_captions.htm

    I've more than run out of time, seeing that I've got a day job to
    attend to, but don't hesitate to take a copy of what I've done so far,
    if you feel tempted to hack it. (The copyright mark is an automatic
    formality in this context AFAIAC.)

    The actual ruby markup seems to be purpose-built for doing what
    the O.P requested; if it's currently impractical to deploy it, at
    least in its complex variant, that's a shame really. (I guess one
    could process the Ruby through some kind of transformation which
    produced actual table markup resembling what was suggested by Jukka,
    so as to get something that would work in practice, but without having
    to abandon the Ruby markup as the actual source.)

    cheers
     
    Alan J. Flavell, Feb 20, 2006
    #11
  12. Paula Radetzky

    Spartanicus Guest

    "Alan J. Flavell" <> wrote:

    >If you have any suggestion for improving the practical results, feel
    >free. Would you anticipate any benefits by trying to follow the ideas
    >which you set out here? -
    >http://www.spartanicus.utvinternet.ie/centered_image_gallery_with_captions.htm


    I can't contribute, I don't have the OP's post or any direct follow ups
    (GG filter), plus I'm not familiar with Ruby so I've only skimmed the
    replies that I do have.

    --
    Spartanicus
     
    Spartanicus, Feb 20, 2006
    #12
  13. Paula Radetzky wrote :
    > I am a linguist who works on aboriginal languages


    What are the Aboriginal language names?

    > with very few
    > speakers. I need to write down their folktales and translate *each*
    > word separately, right under it.


    One question (and it's an important one): why do you need to provide a
    translation for *each* word separately?


    For example,
    >
    > Rubana-cu ya umusalu
    > dawn-ed when rained
    > 'When it dawned, it rained.'
    >
    > Obviously, the words in the first and second lines need to line up
    > right under each other. Tables are good for that.
    >
    > The problem is with stories that are longer than one line. If I
    > continue typing the story, I want the TABLE CELLS from Lines 1 AND 2 to
    > wrap TOGETHER, as a pair. For example:
    >
    > Rubana-cu ya umusalu. Masi sumusumukulu kia. Maaru ucani.
    > Ilaku ya
    > dawn-ed when rained then enemy came exist
    > one I tried
    >
    > turukuuka. Ku-aku acalia puritongatonga.
    > kill not-I know throw.spear
    >
    > 'When it dawned, it rained. Then the enemy came. There was one that I
    > tried to kill. But I didn't know how to throw the spear.'
    >
    > I don't want to create a new table for each line, because I often have
    > to cut and past these folktales into documents with different page
    > sizes, margins, etc. I don't want to have to redo the tables every
    > time; I just want this wrapping capability.
    >
    > Does anybody know how to do this, or does anyone know how to work
    > around this problem? Or a macro?
    >
    > I am trying to use NeoOffice, but if it works only in Word, I'll use
    > that.


    Is there a particular reason as to why you use NeoOffice?

    >
    > Thanks a lot. You're helping to document and save dying languages!


    Do you have a webpage which we could look at? To see how you do your
    webpage?

    Gérard
    --
    remove blah to email me
     
    =?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=E9rard_Talbot?=, Feb 20, 2006
    #13
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