About rant on Dave Thomas site, titled 'imitation...'

S

simonh

Couldn't post a reply on Daves site so thought i'd post one here. Here
is post:

http://blogs.pragprog.com/cgi-bin/pragdave.cgi/Random/Imitation.rdoc

I think this is happening a lot. 37signals has been ripped off
according to DHH (I believe), rails has inspired many 'best ever, just
what you were looking for' web frameworks. I think it is a fact of
life. Selection of the Fittest in action. The unworthy will surely
perish as they always do.
 
J

Jonathan Leighton

Couldn't post a reply on Daves site so thought i'd post one here. Here
is post:

http://blogs.pragprog.com/cgi-bin/pragdave.cgi/Random/Imitation.rdoc

I think this is happening a lot. 37signals has been ripped off
according to DHH (I believe), rails has inspired many 'best ever, just
what you were looking for' web frameworks. I think it is a fact of
life. Selection of the Fittest in action. The unworthy will surely
perish as they always do.

This is something called competition which is generally considered to be
a good thing for consumers (that's us). I agree ripping stuff off is
somewhat low, but if they can still pull it off better than the copycats
there is nothing to be concerned about.

Ultimately I don't really feel sorry for any of these companies that
have been "ripped off"; that's part of being in business in the first
place (at least if you're doing anything remotely interesting)
 
J

James Britt

simonh said:
Couldn't post a reply on Daves site so thought i'd post one here. Here
is post:

http://blogs.pragprog.com/cgi-bin/pragdave.cgi/Random/Imitation.rdoc

I think this is happening a lot. 37signals has been ripped off
according to DHH (I believe), rails has inspired many 'best ever, just
what you were looking for' web frameworks. I think it is a fact of
life. Selection of the Fittest in action. The unworthy will surely
perish as they always do.

How many people or companies create anything out of thin air? How much
is simply the influence of the extant culture and available technology,
and how much is raw innovation? When does influence become "ripping off"?

If you take an idea from one person, it's stealing, but imitate what
two people are doing, and you're just following common practice. Go
figure.
 
A

Alex Combas

Last Paragraph from PragDaves blog post:
"For this reason, I honestly don't mind other publishers blatantly
ripping us off. But I'd rather they didn't. Instead, I'd rather they
found their own ways of innovating, and build their own ideas that
others found useful. The publishing industry is in transition. It
needs all the good ideas it can get. All publishers should contribute
in their own way to the reshaping of the industry. Simply aping
someone else's success won't help the community as a whole."

Good ideas deserve to be shared, kudos to the Pragmatic publishing group.
However its bad taste to complain when the people coming behind you
borrow your ideas.
Instead be proud you've actually had the wit and luck to lead pack in
a new direction, not many get that chance, and don't forget just how
much knowledge you in turn have had to borrow from predecessors to get
to where you are today.
 
S

SteveC

* @ 24/01/06 09:33:40 PM [email protected] said:
How many people or companies create anything out of thin air? How much
is simply the influence of the extant culture and available technology,
and how much is raw innovation? When does influence become "ripping off"?

If you take an idea from one person, it's stealing, but imitate what

No, you can't steal but you might infringe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_infringement

have fun,

SteveC (e-mail address removed) http://www.asklater.com/steve/
 
D

Dale Martenson

There are three basic types of people/groups/companies:

Proactive:
-- The Creators, who invent the future out of good ideas. Breaking
ground for others. They are the leaders (reluctant as they may be).
They tend to invest the most. And may or may not be rewarded. They are
of great benefit to a community.

Reactive:
-- The Followers, who build on the sweat of others. They may work to
mimic and can come up short. They may work to improve and take
advantage of opportunity. Their investment may be little (pure
followers) or may be great (advantage takers). Again, they may or may
not be rewarded. They can be of benefit to a community.

Inactive:
-- The Takers, who see opportunity in others work, but lack the
inventiveness to make it better. They combine things. Building out of
the work of others with very little investment. They are usually reward
since they have invested so little. They are anti-community. They
rarely give anything back to the community in return.

The point is that a "community" (apply the term as you please) needs
both the Proactive and the Reactive to thrive. The Reward is subjective
(money, fame, recognition, history). We can not all be The Creators.
Some don't have the means (time, money, knowledge).

It is not bad to build on the work of others. It is necessary. The
Creators may feel taken advantage of in some way. But they must realize
that without them progress can not be achieved. Don't blame the
Followers for following (it's in their nature). But most of all, don't
stop creating because there may be followers.

Dave Thomas and Andy Hunt are leaders in the programming and publishing
community. I for one think that their methods enhance both disciplines.
And I am encouraged that others are following their lead which in the
end benefits us all.

Dale Martenson
http://www.stewdle.com/dale
 
F

Francis Hwang

SteveC said:
No, you can't steal but you might infringe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_infringement

Ideas can't be copyrighted; only their expression can be copyrighted.

If Pragmatic Press were to apply for intellectual property rights over
their beta books program, the most likely protection would be for a
patent. Not that they've done so--and given the prohibitive cost of
obtaining a patent, and the likely backlash from their
free-software-using customers over becoming yet another patent-wielding
company, and the fact that they likely find such patents personally
distasteful, they're unlikely to do so.

f.
 
D

Dave Howell

Couldn't post a reply on Daves site so thought i'd post one here. Here
is post:

http://blogs.pragprog.com/cgi-bin/pragdave.cgi/Random/Imitation.rdoc

<snort>

We (by which I mean Alexandria Digital Literature) have *had* real-time
royalty statements since 1999. Our "continuous build" system's been
running since 1997, although it's been used for the benefit of the
readers, not the authors. And although we've paid >50% royalties on
gross revenue with many of our authors, I know of more than a few
publishers who've been paying 50% on list for years as well.

I'd rather other publishers were aware of our innovations and expanded
upon them rather than re-inventing the wheel from whole cloth. LOL.


Dave Howell
Founder & Chief Innovator
Alexandria Digital Literature (alexlit.com)
A division of the Seattle Book Company.
 
D

Dave Thomas

--Apple-Mail-20--1021975039
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=US-ASCII;
delsp=yes;
format=flowed


Ideas can't be copyrighted; only their expression can be copyrighted.

If Pragmatic Press were to apply for intellectual property rights over
their beta books program, the most likely protection would be for a
patent. Not that they've done so--and given the prohibitive cost of
obtaining a patent, and the likely backlash from their
free-software-using customers over becoming yet another patent-
wielding
company, and the fact that they likely find such patents personally
distasteful, they're unlikely to do so.

The issue isn't folks copying, or who did what when.

For me, the issue is an industry that I value (from well before I did
publishing myself) slowly dying through lack of innovation. When
companies stop innovating, as an industry we stop growing.

My blog post came from a growing sense of frustration with an
industry that seems to have lost its way. I don't want to see
publishing houses I've grown up with going away.


Dave
--Apple-Mail-20--1021975039--
 
A

Alex Combas

The issue isn't folks copying, or who did what when.

For me, the issue is an industry that I value (from well before I did
publishing myself) slowly dying through lack of innovation. When
companies stop innovating, as an industry we stop growing.

My blog post came from a growing sense of frustration with an
industry that seems to have lost its way. I don't want to see
publishing houses I've grown up with going away.

Hi Dave,
Well its good to hear you arent aiming for global monopoly! :)

However I must ask you, if as you say various members of "an industry
that seems to have lost its way" mimic your new and bold concepts,
then isn't that a good thing if what you are really concerned
about is the possibility of them "slowly dying through lack of innovation"?

Just something to think about.
 
D

Dave Thomas

--Apple-Mail-12--935547603
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=US-ASCII;
delsp=yes;
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However I must ask you, if as you say various members of "an industry
that seems to have lost its way" mimic your new and bold concepts,
then isn't that a good thing if what you are really concerned
about is the possibility of them "slowly dying through lack of
innovation"?

No, it isn't. If each of them were to innovate by trying new and
different things, then the industry as a whole would expand in many
different directions. If we all just copy each other, then the amount
of innovation is reduced. It's a question of opportunity cost.

My post came from a frustration that there doesn't seem to be this
kind of vitality.

It's the same kind of frustration I feel when I see folks try to
implement a Rails look-alike in other languages. It isn't that Rails
needs to be the only player. It's that these copies miss the point:
Rails works because it is integrated so well into Ruby. If you want
to create frameworks for other languages, don't start by copying
Rails. Instead, understand _why_ Rails works, then see what your
target language has to offer and innovate with that.

I'm clearly not making my point effectively, for which I apologize.


Dave



--Apple-Mail-12--935547603--
 
A

Alex Combas

No, it isn't. If each of them were to innovate by trying new and
different things, then the industry as a whole would expand in many
different directions. If we all just copy each other, then the amount
of innovation is reduced. It's a question of opportunity cost.

My post came from a frustration that there doesn't seem to be this
kind of vitality.

It's the same kind of frustration I feel when I see folks try to
implement a Rails look-alike in other languages. It isn't that Rails
needs to be the only player. It's that these copies miss the point:
Rails works because it is integrated so well into Ruby. If you want
to create frameworks for other languages, don't start by copying
Rails. Instead, understand _why_ Rails works, then see what your
target language has to offer and innovate with that.

I understand what you are saying regarding rails and I agree.
Rails is a tailored solution and what makes it so special is that
it is done with ruby. The concept of rails is not so significant in
itself because it could be implemented on other platforms,
but only when it is done on ruby does rails gain its special significance.

However I think you may be misapplying that when using it as
a metaphor for your innovations in the publishing business.

Unless of course what you are trying to say is that your innovations
in themselves are not so special, and that it is only because your company
itself is different that your innovations have gained any special significa=
nce.

Unfortunately that sounds a little fool hardy to me. That thinking leads
one to the rationality that "the others suck because they are not us, so
copying our innovations wont help them until they become just as we are".

I appreciate the sentiment that you folks are running a pretty tight ship
and I'm glad to hear it. It is something to be proud of, but I'm not so sur=
e
that you are a ruby in the wild with some great rails on top.

But then again, maybe you are. Time will tell.

Cheers!
I'm clearly not making my point effectively, for which I apologize.

No apology needed, I appreciated your reply.
 
E

Eric Hodel

I understand what you are saying regarding rails and I agree.
Rails is a tailored solution and what makes it so special is that
it is done with ruby. The concept of rails is not so significant in
itself because it could be implemented on other platforms,
but only when it is done on ruby does rails gain its special
significance.

However I think you may be misapplying that when using it as
a metaphor for your innovations in the publishing business.

Unless of course what you are trying to say is that your innovations
in themselves are not so special, and that it is only because your
company
itself is different that your innovations have gained any special
significance.

I believe Dave is trying to say the inverse. "We're not a big
publishing company. We needed to make things work great for us. We
came up with these innovations to do that. That lead to these
further innovations that everybody is copying."
Unfortunately that sounds a little fool hardy to me. That thinking
leads
one to the rationality that "the others suck because they are not
us, so
copying our innovations wont help them until they become just as we
are".

I think "Others suck because they try to follow our innovations
without understanding how we managed to come up with them" is lesson
you're looking for here.

Rails and Ruby work well together and *that* led to the innovations
everybody is trying to copy. Just like The Pragmatic Programmers use
of version control, instant typesetting and continuous build systems
led to Beta Books and Fridays. Trying to copy the Beta Books or the
Fridays probably won't be as successful for other publishers because
they don't have the tool-chain PragProg does.

Will Beta Books be as successful (profit margin, time to completion)
for the imitators? Probably not. They lack the foundation PragProg
has that gives fast turnaround for minimal cost. PragProg also
offers authors quite a bit more than other publishers.

Copying flashy stuff without the understanding it is flashy or how it
became flashy leaves you with a shaky foundation to innovate upon.

Finding and building from your strengths will lead you to innovation.
 
A

Alex Combas

I believe Dave is trying to say the inverse. "We're not a big
publishing company. We needed to make things work great for us. We
came up with these innovations to do that. That lead to these
further innovations that everybody is copying."

I think "Others suck because they try to follow our innovations
without understanding how we managed to come up with them" is lesson
you're looking for here.

Rails and Ruby work well together and *that* led to the innovations
everybody is trying to copy. Just like The Pragmatic Programmers use
of version control, instant typesetting and continuous build systems
led to Beta Books and Fridays. Trying to copy the Beta Books or the
Fridays probably won't be as successful for other publishers because
they don't have the tool-chain PragProg does.

I see where you are coming from now, thanks for clearing this up.
Sorry if I stepped on any toes along the way but the initial
blog lead (me) to strange assumptions.
 
J

Jeff Pritchard

Reading through this thread as merely an interested bystander who only
just recently joined the rails community...I found it remarkably easy to
play "insert name of world changing technology here" with this
discussion. Computer operating systems, cellular technology (I work for
Qualcomm), automotive technology...the list is without end.

My point is not that one side or the other of this argument "sucks", and
the other side is "the right and true virtuous side". The point I would
like to make is that this argument is absolutely pervasive in the world
today. Somehow, during the same space of time where technology has
taken over the world, the ages old mechanisms we use for "paying" those
who think well have been almost lost in the shuffle.

Just as this remarkable age of communications and other digital
technologies have completely overturned the age old methods by which we
guarantee to pay a musician, so too, have they upset the apple cart that
those of us who hope to make a living by having good ideas would have,
in days gone by, put food on the table.

To put it another way, we now live in a world where Digital Rights
Management has replaced a big building full of vinyl stamping machines
as the means of guaranteeing to pay a musician for what he does best.

My question would be...what can we come up with to replace the outdated
and nearly worthless "patent process" with some sort of a "runs at the
speed of technology" mechanism for giving credit where credit is due?
Without some new mechanism, we have only two directions to go...

1) the brainy people become secretive and find ways to hide their
creations and sell individual tickets to those who would want to use the
creations. (obviously, this slows down the progress of all)

2) the brainy people give up on making a living from having big ideas
and decide to spend their days flipping hamburgers for a living
(obviously, this slows down the progress of all).

Just my meager ruminations on a thread that is an interesting new portal
through which to view this ubiquitous problem in this "new world".

jp
 
J

James Britt

Jeff Pritchard wrote:
...
My question would be...what can we come up with to replace the outdated
and nearly worthless "patent process" with some sort of a "runs at the
speed of technology" mechanism for giving credit where credit is due?
Without some new mechanism, we have only two directions to go...


Any mechanism would need to consider that different people will have
similar ideas independent of each other, and that very few ideas emerge
out of a vacuum; even knowing when an idea is actually new, instead of a
(simple) variation on existing practice(s), is hard to pin down.

--
James Britt

http://www.ruby-doc.org - Ruby Help & Documentation
http://www.artima.com/rubycs/ - The Journal By & For Rubyists
http://www.rubystuff.com - The Ruby Store for Ruby Stuff
http://www.jamesbritt.com - Playing with Better Toys
http://www.30secondrule.com - Building Better Tools
 
J

Jeff Pritchard

James said:
Any mechanism would need to consider that different people will have
similar ideas independent of each other, and that very few ideas emerge
out of a vacuum; even knowing when an idea is actually new, instead of a
(simple) variation on existing practice(s), is hard to pin down.


Thanks James,
As the old saying goes, if you put a million red-necks in front of a
million typewriters, one of them will eventually write Unix. If you put
two million red-necks in front of two million typewriters, would two of
them write Unix? More likely one would write BSD, and another would
write some other flavor of *nix. My point is that simultaneous
equivalent acts of genius makes for a good urban legend, but seems
rather unlikely. There would be differences between the two creations -
enough that one of them would be found to be preferable by the common
man in the street. If each of them were bound by the rules to use his
and only his version of the "invention", they would each benefit but
only to the degree that their version is deemed superior by independent
"customers".

Just one brief thought on the direction something like this could go...
A "Patent Process" for the new Millennium:
• The author of something "new": uses, acknowledges, and might choose
to add to an "open source" that relates to the accomplishment of his
creation. The scaffolding of the "invention".
• Things that the author considers novel can be left out of "open
source" and held back as proprietary and not to be shared or copied
without his consent (and remuneration). These things would be openly
described by the author as proprietary and not to be copied. The first
verifiable such publishing would always win.
• The open source community would then rigidly enforce both of the above
points, starting by actively turning their backs on any "new" creation
that fails on either of these points. If the "community" makes an
author aware of his sins and receives no retribution from the accused,
the community might then declare "open season" on the offender. (that
means whatever you might want it to mean)
• Any attempted interference with this process by a Lawyer, would be
treated as an infraction, and dealt with in the same way that any other
infraction of the rules would be - as moderated by the outrage and/or
indifference of "the community".

Only by keeping the rules of such a system as simple and unfettered by
"lawyer speak" as the above could such a system survive and flourish. I
think the non-specific nature of the third point is worthy of note. It
leaves open the possibility of escalation based purely on perceived
heinosity (new word?) and repeated offenses. Hell hath no fury like a
planet full of scorned hackers.

Its other saving grace is that this is "government of, by, and for the
people" - almost by definition. It requires no agreement, no vote.
Each person enforces the rules based on the degree of their outrage at
the offense of an evildoer. If an author commits a minor or gray area
infraction, most likely his punishment will be limited by the
indifference of "the community". Major offenders would be "stoned" back
to the stone-age (maybe even literally).


Humbly submitted as the solution to all that is wrong with the world (or
not).

----

I believe that the U.S. died on a calm summer afternoon when somebody
looked up and for the first time realized that we had all slept just a
little too long, and that an armed uprising by the general populace no
longer stood any slightest chance of succeeding. It is now government
"of, by, and especially for the government".

We lost this country one little piece at a time. Let's take back the
world by the same process. Open Source Government - gotta love it!
Guns? We don't need no stinkin' guns! GWB, your "government" has just
been deprecated by "the community".
Jeff Pritchard
The Mountain Man

(FWIW, I would like for you to consider the above description of "the
community" as my own contribution to open source government. I only ask
that when you think of or speak the term "the community" that you
pronounce it the way South Park's Cartman would - the communitay!)
 
A

Arpan

Thanks James,
As the old saying goes, if you put a million red-necks in front of a
million typewriters, one of them will eventually write Unix. If you put
two million red-necks in front of two million typewriters, would two of
them write Unix? More likely one would write BSD, and another would
write some other flavor of *nix. My point is that simultaneous
equivalent acts of genius makes for a good urban legend, but seems
rather unlikely.

I don't think that they would be considered acts of Genius. If they were
in front of a typewriter, all the code that they write would be useless.
:)

There would be differences between the two creations -
enough that one of them would be found to be preferable by the common
man in the street.

Again, both would be sets of useless code on paper. Both would be useful
for the same thing, recycling. (or firewood) :)

Remember, just typing something is not enough. There needs to be
something to interpret what was typed.
 
B

Bil Kleb

Dave said:
My post came from a frustration that there doesn't seem to
be this kind of vitality.

This mechanics behind this lack of vitality is well
documented in Christensen's /The Innovator's Dilemma/.
It's a depressing book for established companies. Here's
a two-paragraph summary I wrote a while back,

The slope of technology development is typically steeper than
a given customer’s demand for it. Therefore, an opportunity exists
for disruptive technology to sneak in from below and win those
customers from the sustaining technology provider that is naturally
moving up market.

The dilemma is that the sustaining technology folks view the
disruptive technology folks as insignificant until it is too
late. Furthermore, the sustaining technology folks operate in
a higher-cost value-web that decimates their ability to compete
with the disruptive technology folks.

This also sheds light on the current interplay between Ruby/Rails
and the established "super platforms".

Later,
 

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