about std::complex<>'s real() and imag()

H

huili80

Should complex<T>::real() and imag() return a value or a refernce?
What does the standard say about this?

I just realized that MSVC2008's implementation returns a value, but in
GCC reference is returned.
I tend to believe that MSVC made a big mistake here!!! But
unfortunately I must use it at work, which sucks!!!
 
S

SeanW

Should complex<T>::real() and imag() return a value or a refernce?
What does the standard say about this?

I just realized that MSVC2008's implementation returns a value, but in
GCC reference is returned.
I tend to believe that MSVC made a big mistake here!!! But
unfortunately I must use it at work, which sucks!!!

The standard says:

// 26.2.7 values:
template<class T> T real(const complex<T>&);
template<class T> T imag(const complex<T>&);

Sean
 
H

huili80

The standard says:

  // 26.2.7 values:
  template<class T> T real(const complex<T>&);
  template<class T> T imag(const complex<T>&);

Sean

Wow... this is suprising!!!
What could be the reason to forbid user from accessing the real and
imaginary part of a complex number?
 
H

huili80

The standard says:

  // 26.2.7 values:
  template<class T> T real(const complex<T>&);
  template<class T> T imag(const complex<T>&);

Sean

Wait... you are talking about free functions, but I was talking about
member functions real() and imag().
Can you tell me what does the standard say of the return types of
member functions std::complex<T>::real() and std::complex<T>::imag() ?
 
J

James Kanze

Should complex<T>::real() and imag() return a value or a
refernce? What does the standard say about this?
I just realized that MSVC2008's implementation returns a
value, but in GCC reference is returned.
I tend to believe that MSVC made a big mistake here!!! But
unfortunately I must use it at work, which sucks!!!

The standard requires them to return a value. The standard is
designed to leave the internal representation of complex
unspecified; at least in theory, an implementation could use
polar coordinates internally.

Although good practice in general, this freedom is probably
useless in the case of complex: complex is mainly used in
mathematical and scientific applications; such applications have
to communicate with Fortran, and Fortran imposes a
representation of complex. So C++ might as well do so as well,
and guarantee the same representation as Fortran. (And C: in C,
"Each complex type has the same representation and alignment
requirements as an array type containing exactly two elements of
the corresponding real type; the first element is equal to the
real part, and the second element to the imaginary part, of the
complex number.")

Of course, this is still not an argument for real() returning a
reference instead of a value. In the end, real() is a classical
"getter", and the usual conventions I've seen are that "getter"s
should always return by value, unless there are serious
performance reasons not to do so (e.g. if the getter returns an
std::list with a hundreds of thousands of elements). From a
design point of view, returning a value is the correct thing to
do.

(And I don't understand your objection to VC++. The library has
always been better than that of g++; until recently,
significantly better. And recent versions of the compiler are
just as good too. The environment is worthless for any
professional work, but gmake, bash and vim or emacs are all
available under Windows, and VC++ works fine with them.)
 
H

huili80

The standard requires them to return a value.  The standard is
designed to leave the internal representation of complex
unspecified; at least in theory, an implementation could use
polar coordinates internally.

Although good practice in general, this freedom is probably
useless in the case of complex: complex is mainly used in
mathematical and scientific applications; such applications have
to communicate with Fortran, and Fortran imposes a
representation of complex.  So C++ might as well do so as well,
and guarantee the same representation as Fortran.  (And C: in C,
"Each complex type has the same representation and alignment
requirements as an array type containing exactly two elements of
the corresponding real type; the first element is equal to the
real part, and the second element to the imaginary part, of the
complex number.")

Of course, this is still not an argument for real() returning a
reference instead of a value.  In the end, real() is a classical
"getter", and the usual conventions I've seen are that "getter"s
should always return by value, unless there are serious
performance reasons not to do so (e.g. if the getter returns an
std::list with a hundreds of thousands of elements).  From a
design point of view, returning a value is the correct thing to
do.

(And I don't understand your objection to VC++.  The library has
always been better than that of g++; until recently,
significantly better.  And recent versions of the compiler are
just as good too.  The environment is worthless for any
professional work, but gmake, bash and vim or emacs are all
available under Windows, and VC++ works fine with them.)

--
James Kanze (GABI Software)             email:[email protected]
Conseils en informatique orientée objet/
                   Beratung in objektorientierter Datenverarbeitung
9 place Sémard, 78210 St.-Cyr-l'École, France, +33 (0)1 30 23 00 34

Thanks for the explanation. I actually read the standard yesterday and
found out that it requires real() and imag() to return a value. Though
I was admittedly shocked at first, I eventually realized that was due
to the freedom of how a particular implementation could represent a
complex number internally. I admit that I was wrong about VC++ in this
particular matter.

As for my general dislike of VC++, I think it mainly comes from the
fact that when I try to look into the source code of Boost (or some
other c++ libraries), I can always see specific workarounds dedicated
for MS's broken compiler (among a few other broken compilers).

I wonder in what sense you meant by "The library has always been
better than that of g++". I really want to know, because I don't have
much experience with VC++'s library.

Recently versions of VC++'s compiler maybe have been better their
older ones. But still, broken. Here is a concrete example which I
found during my first week of working with VC++ at work (which is
about two weeks ago). For an sample code in blitz-0.9 (located at /
path to blitz-0.9/example/array.cpp), both VC2003 and VC2005
"miscompile" it in debug mode. The output is just wrong! Mysteriously,
in release mode it does give the correct result. (If anyone would like
to test it with VC2008, please let me know your result).

If this post is off-topic, I apologize.
 
J

Jerry Coffin

[ ... ]
Wait... you are talking about free functions, but I was talking about
member functions real() and imag().
Can you tell me what does the standard say of the return types of
member functions std::complex<T>::real() and std::complex<T>::imag() ?

They also return by value, not reference:

T real() const;
T imag() const;
 
J

Jerry Coffin

[ ... ]
As for my general dislike of VC++, I think it mainly comes from the
fact that when I try to look into the source code of Boost (or some
other c++ libraries), I can always see specific workarounds dedicated
for MS's broken compiler (among a few other broken compilers).

Most of these are for Microsoft's older compilers -- especially for VC++
6.0. OTOH, it's open to a lot of question whether this should be seen
negatively or positively. The reason the workarounds are there is
because people still use VC++ 6.0 despite it's being over a decade old
-- and the reason people still use it long after all its contemporaries
have long since disappeared is largely that for a lot of purposes it's
still usable, while it's contemporaries are not.

IMO, "broken" with reference to a compiler is a nearly meaningless term.
From a pure conformance viewpoint, I'm reasonably certain every C++
compiler on earth is broken, though the degree to which they're broken
varies. Most older compilers were, of course, a lot more broken than
newer versions of the same. Even the EDG compiler (and ones based on it
such as Intel and Comeau) isn't really perfect -- though it's clearly
better than most others.

[ ... ]
Recently versions of VC++'s compiler maybe have been better their
older ones. But still, broken.

Until or unless you define some fairly specific (and non-obvious)
meaning for "broken", the same could be said of every other C++ compiler
available and remain true. Worse, almost regardless of what any compiler
vendor does, it's likely to remain true indefinitely -- C++ is
sufficiently complex that getting a compiler truly perfect is more a
dream than a realistic goal. EDG is about as close as it gets, and the
guys at EDG are pretty close to fanatical about writing the best
possible compiler -- but their compiler's still "broken" if you take
that to mean "not perfectly conforming".

Worse, their target is moving: the 2003 standard for C++ is five years
old now, but nobody's really even produced a truly conforming compiler
for C++ 98 yet. Meanwhile, the standard committee is working at putting
the final touches on the new standard to render both of those obsolete
again -- and it adds a LOT of new stuff that'll keep the compiler
vendors busy for quite a while ("busy" meaning their current motto is
probably: "sleep is a disease caused by caffeine deficiency").
 
J

James Kanze

As for my general dislike of VC++, I think it mainly comes
from the fact that when I try to look into the source code of
Boost (or some other c++ libraries), I can always see
specific workarounds dedicated for MS's broken compiler (among
a few other broken compilers).

Most of them, I'll bet, are for VC++ 6.0. 6.0 was pretty bad
with templates (although it was OK elsewhere---but templates are
what Boost is all about). The latest versions are as good as
g++.
I wonder in what sense you meant by "The library has always
been better than that of g++". I really want to know, because
I don't have much experience with VC++'s library.

Well, back in 6.0, they had a real, working implementation of
standard streams, for example. And locales (locale support is
probably still better in VC++). Before g++ 3.0, std::string
wasn't multi-thread safe (but then, nor was the compiler
generated code---at least in the case of exceptions).

Back in the first couple of years of this decade, you had the
choice: you could use VC++, with a good library, but broken
templates, or g++, with good templates, but a broken library.
Today, both are pretty good in both respects (although neither
come anywhere near to Comeau for templates).
Recently versions of VC++'s compiler maybe have been better their
older ones. But still, broken.

I've never used a compiler without some bugs.
 
H

huili80

Most of them, I'll bet, are for VC++ 6.0.  6.0 was pretty bad
with templates (although it was OK elsewhere---but templates are
what Boost is all about).  The latest versions are as good as
g++.


Well, back in 6.0, they had a real, working implementation of
standard streams, for example.  And locales (locale support is
probably still better in VC++).  Before g++ 3.0, std::string
wasn't multi-thread safe (but then, nor was the compiler
generated code---at least in the case of exceptions).

Back in the first couple of years of this decade, you had the
choice: you could use VC++, with a good library, but broken
templates, or g++, with good templates, but a broken library.
Today, both are pretty good in both respects (although neither
come anywhere near to Comeau for templates).


I've never used a compiler without some bugs.

--
James Kanze (GABI Software)             email:[email protected]
Conseils en informatique orientée objet/
                   Beratung in objektorientierter Datenverarbeitung
9 place Sémard, 78210 St.-Cyr-l'École, France, +33 (0)1 30 23 00 34


You bet wrong! The workaround for VC++ in Boost are mostly for VC7
(2003), and they continue to exist all the way till VC9 (which was
released this year, right?).

Let's look at the files in boost/config/compiler/, specifically the
visualc.hpp and gcc.hpp . They contain all the information on what the
compiler is and is not capable of.

Dedicated to VC7, there are 20+ macros defined in visualc.hpp that are
named in the following fashion:

#define BOOST_NO_XXXX

Please excuse me for not listing them here.
Back in 2003, the contemporary gcc compiler was gcc3. The gcc.hpp
contains only 4 macros named like the above that are dedicated for
gcc3.

Now let's see what's happending now (in 2008).

The visualc.hpp indicates that every version of VC till VC9 all
recieved macros named like BOOST_NO_XXXX , though the number is far
less than that of VC7.
While in the gcc.hpp file at the section for gcc4, I didn't see a
single BOOST_NO_XXXX macro, but quite a few BOOST_HAS_XXXX macros.

By the way, both gcc and icc provides experimental c++0x features in
their most recent releases. Does VC9 offer any of those?

As to the library, I guess you're probably right. But I wouldn't know
for sure, because I never needed to rely my life on those libraries
you mentioned where VC was once supieror to gcc and/or still is. To
me, template is far more important than strings or locales.
 
J

Jerry Coffin

[ ... ]
Let's look at the files in boost/config/compiler/, specifically the
visualc.hpp and gcc.hpp . They contain all the information on what the
compiler is and is not capable of.

Dedicated to VC7, there are 20+ macros defined in visualc.hpp that are
named in the following fashion:

#define BOOST_NO_XXXX

Please excuse me for not listing them here.

I'll excuse you, but I won't let you off the hook. I'm going to list at
least a couple here, in the hope that you might learn from it.
Back in 2003, the contemporary gcc compiler was gcc3. The gcc.hpp
contains only 4 macros named like the above that are dedicated for
gcc3.

Now let's see what's happending now (in 2008).

The visualc.hpp indicates that every version of VC till VC9 all
recieved macros named like BOOST_NO_XXXX , though the number is far
less than that of VC7.

Quite true.
While in the gcc.hpp file at the section for gcc4, I didn't see a
single BOOST_NO_XXXX macro, but quite a few BOOST_HAS_XXXX macros.

Not too surprising. But now let's take a look at some of those macros
and figure out what they mean.

For our first example, let's consider:

# define BOOST_NO_INTEGRAL_INT64_T

VisualC.hpp. This means the compiler doesn't define a type by the name
of 'long long' -- but then, C++ doesn't _allow_ a conforming compiler to
define a type named long long. A bit later in the same file we find:

#if (_MSC_VER >= 1200)
# define BOOST_HAS_MS_INT64
#endif
#if (_MSC_VER >= 1310) && defined(_MSC_EXTENSIONS)
# define BOOST_HAS_LONG_LONG
#endif

In other words, 1) VC++ really does have an integral type of 64 bits --
but it's given the name "__int64" instead of "long long". Since
"__int64" is in the implementor's name space, this is a conforming
extension.

gcc, by contrast, uses the name "long long" -- which isn't exactly a
terrible extension, given that it's the accepted name for a 64-bit
(minimum) type in C99 and the current draft for C++ 0x. OTOH, according
to the current C++ standard, code that uses 'long long' simply isn't
conforming. IOW, what we're seeing is an instance where VC++ conforms to
the standard, but gcc does NOT.

In the end, it comes down to this: most of the Boost contributors use
gcc as their primary compiler, so they've picked gcc as their baseline.
They don't update the baseline _every_ time the compiler is updated, but
even so, the BOOST_HAS_XXXX and BOOST_NO_XXXX macros are NOT really
telling you how different the compiler is from the standard -- they're
really telling you how different the compiler is from the version of gcc
they've chosen as their baseline.

Once you realize that, it's hardly surprising that reasonably recent
versions of gcc don't require any BOOST_NO_XXXX macros, and really
recent versions just add a few BOOST_HAS_XXXX macros to cover features
added to the compiler since the version they're using as the baseline.
Older versions of gcc have a few BOOST_NO_XXX macros, but (again) it's
not really much of a surprise that older versions of gcc are still
pretty similar to newer versions of gcc, whereas other compilers tend to
be somewhat different from gcc.

If you look (for example) in common_edg.hpp, you'll find that it _does_
define some BOOST_NO_XXXX macros -- even though EDG has led the market
in terms of language conformance pretty much since the day it came onto
the market.
By the way, both gcc and icc provides experimental c++0x features in
their most recent releases. Does VC9 offer any of those?

Yes, though only a few. There's (quite) a bit of tension when it comes
to adding new features though. People experimenting with new language
features want the compiler to change as quickly as possible, adding
every new feature as soon as anybody even thinks of it. People
maintaining production code want the compiler to stay exactly the same
_forever_, never changing anything that could possibly break any
existing code.

Think for a moment, and you'll realize that to Microsoft it's _far_ more
important to ensure that (for example) all the code in Windows and
Office continues to work than it is to claim they were the first to
support feature XXX (that was informally accepted in one committee
meeting, but formally rejected in the next one).

gcc (for one example) is in a rather different position. First of all,
though quite a bit of code depends on gcc, the gcc folks aren't going to
get fired if their new revision breaks existing code or isn't binary
compatible with the previous version (in fact, gcc has done both quite
regularly...)

Don't get me wrong: that doesn't mean gcc has NO interest in stability
_or_ that Microsoft never adds new features -- but it does mean that for
Microsoft, new features must be justified, not just added because
somebody thought they'd be cool. That's going to be cost justification
-- how much does it cost to implement, how much to get code to work with
it again, and how much does having it save over the next X years.

For example, despite being far behind in some areas, MS was one of the
_very_ first vendors to ship working namespace support. Given their use
of large teams and lots of existing code, that strikes me as about as
surprising as the sun rising in the morning.
 
J

James Kanze

[ ... ]
Let's look at the files in boost/config/compiler/,
specifically the visualc.hpp and gcc.hpp . They contain all
the information on what the compiler is and is not capable
of.
Dedicated to VC7, there are 20+ macros defined in
visualc.hpp that are named in the following fashion:
#define BOOST_NO_XXXX
Please excuse me for not listing them here.
I'll excuse you, but I won't let you off the hook. I'm going
to list at least a couple here, in the hope that you might
learn from it.
Quite true.
Not too surprising. But now let's take a look at some of those macros
and figure out what they mean.
For our first example, let's consider:
# define BOOST_NO_INTEGRAL_INT64_T
VisualC.hpp. This means the compiler doesn't define a type by
the name of 'long long' -- but then, C++ doesn't _allow_ a
conforming compiler to define a type named long long.

A g++ still doesn't, unless you request extensions. (At least
as of version 4.2.1, using long long with -Wall -pendantic
causes an error.)

VC++ 2005 does support long long (although I presume that there
is an option to turn it off, for conformity's sake). But as you
say, it's not (yet) C++. When all is said and done, of course,
long long is an abomination, adopted by C99 because it was
existing (bad) practice, and adopted by C0x because it was in
C99. The C90 standard had provisions for creating new types
(and new anything in the language): use a keyword whose name
starts with __ or _[A-Z]. Technically, there were really only
two reasonable choices in C90/C++98 for a 32 bit compiler to
offer a 64 bit type: make long 64 bits, or define a new type
with a name like __int64.
A bit later in the same file we find:
#if (_MSC_VER >= 1200)
# define BOOST_HAS_MS_INT64
#endif
#if (_MSC_VER >= 1310) && defined(_MSC_EXTENSIONS)
# define BOOST_HAS_LONG_LONG
#endif
In other words, 1) VC++ really does have an integral type of
64 bits -- but it's given the name "__int64" instead of "long
long". Since "__int64" is in the implementor's name space,
this is a conforming extension.
gcc, by contrast, uses the name "long long" -- which isn't
exactly a terrible extension, given that it's the accepted
name for a 64-bit (minimum) type in C99 and the current draft
for C++ 0x.

Gcc used the name "long long" because most other Unix compilers
had started using it. Gcc did not come up with it; their
motivation is purely compatibility with stupidity of other
compilers. And g++ don't support it when invoked with
extensions turned off.
OTOH, according to the current C++ standard, code that uses
'long long' simply isn't conforming. IOW, what we're seeing is
an instance where VC++ conforms to the standard, but gcc does
NOT.

And where VC++ made a technically intelligent decision, and the
Unix C/C++ compilers didn't.
In the end, it comes down to this: most of the Boost
contributors use gcc as their primary compiler, so they've
picked gcc as their baseline. They don't update the baseline
_every_ time the compiler is updated, but even so, the
BOOST_HAS_XXXX and BOOST_NO_XXXX macros are NOT really telling
you how different the compiler is from the standard -- they're
really telling you how different the compiler is from the
version of gcc they've chosen as their baseline.

I don't know about that, but historically, the VC++ which was
current when much of the older Boost stuff was developed was
6.0, which was pretty weak with regards to macros. So the habit
developed to use macros to work around problems in VC++, but to
try to make the code really portable for other compilers.

[...]
Yes, though only a few. There's (quite) a bit of tension when
it comes to adding new features though. People experimenting
with new language features want the compiler to change as
quickly as possible, adding every new feature as soon as
anybody even thinks of it. People maintaining production code
want the compiler to stay exactly the same _forever_, never
changing anything that could possibly break any existing code.

And people developing new code prefer that their compiler not be
the first to adopt new features---the first implementations are
always the poorest. Let others do the experimentation, and once
it's well established how to make it work, then evolve.

For the rest, I think you pretty much summarized the problems
and the trade offs involved between stability and new features.
I just might add that in recent years, g++ has moved more and
more in the direction of stability---in other words, has become
more and more like Microsoft, Sun CC et al. For those of us who
use the compiler in a production environment, this is a good
thing.
 
B

Bo Persson

Jerry said:
In the end, it comes down to this: most of the Boost contributors
use gcc as their primary compiler, so they've picked gcc as their
baseline. They don't update the baseline _every_ time the compiler
is updated, but even so, the BOOST_HAS_XXXX and BOOST_NO_XXXX
macros are NOT really telling you how different the compiler is
from the standard -- they're really telling you how different the
compiler is from the version of gcc they've chosen as their
baseline.

Yes, otherwise they would have needed a BOOST_NO_EXPORT_TEMPLATE in
the gcc config, but not for some others (EDG based).


We also still have my "favorite" piece of convoluted code, in the
std::bitset constructor:

template<class charT, class traits, class Allocator>
explicit bitset(const basic_string<charT,traits,Allocator>& str,
typename
basic_string<charT,traits,Allocator>::size_type pos = 0,
typename
basic_string<charT,traits,Allocator>::size_type n =
basic_string<charT,traits,Allocator>::npos);

which gcc just cannot parse, not even in version 4.1.3. Not
surpriningly it uses an "as-if" implementation. Other "less capable"
compilers have no problem with this (even though they might fail on
BOOST_NO_MEMBER_TEMPLATE_FRIENDS :).


Bo Persson
 

Ask a Question

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

You'll need to choose a username for the site, which only take a couple of moments. After that, you can post your question and our members will help you out.

Ask a Question

Members online

No members online now.

Forum statistics

Threads
473,754
Messages
2,569,526
Members
44,997
Latest member
mileyka

Latest Threads

Top