Accomodating Obsolete Browsers -- How2?

Discussion in 'HTML' started by John McGaw, Jan 8, 2004.

  1. John McGaw

    John McGaw Guest

    I'm almost physically sick -- I've spent some considerable time updating my
    personal website and dragging it kicking and screaming into the XHTML 1.1
    "pure" CSS realm. I was really happy about the results after extensive
    testing with all the modern browsers I could get my hands on since in every
    one of them the appearance was virtually identical.

    Then, on a whim, I downloaded and installed NS 4.9 and looked at it.
    HORRORS! How could anything be that bad?

    Does anyone have an online source of information that might allow me to make
    the site, if not the same, at least readable with old NS? Without doing
    damage to my modernization efforts?

    You can see what is happening at http://johnmcgaw.com/testsite/index.html .
    TIA
    --
    John McGaw
    [Knoxville, TN, USA]

    Return address will not work. Please
    reply in group or through my website:
    http://johnmcgaw.com
    John McGaw, Jan 8, 2004
    #1
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  2. John McGaw

    altamir Guest

    "John McGaw" <> wrote in
    news:GKhLb.1021$:

    > Then, on a whim, I downloaded and installed NS 4.9 and looked at it.
    > HORRORS! How could anything be that bad?
    >
    > Does anyone have an online source of information that might allow me
    > to make the site, if not the same, at least readable with old NS?
    > Without doing damage to my modernization efforts?
    >
    > You can see what is happening at
    > http://johnmcgaw.com/testsite/index.html . TIA


    This is what you can do:

    <link rel="stylesheet" href="style.css" type="text/css" media="all" />
    or
    <style type="text/css">@import "style.css";</style>

    and NS4.x won't see any CSS

    See also http://centricle.com/ref/css/filters/

    --
    altamir
    altamir, Jan 8, 2004
    #2
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  3. John McGaw

    PeterMcC Guest

    John McGaw wrote:
    > I'm almost physically sick -- I've spent some considerable time
    > updating my personal website and dragging it kicking and screaming
    > into the XHTML 1.1 "pure" CSS realm. I was really happy about the
    > results after extensive testing with all the modern browsers I could
    > get my hands on since in every one of them the appearance was
    > virtually identical.
    >
    > Then, on a whim, I downloaded and installed NS 4.9 and looked at it.
    > HORRORS! How could anything be that bad?
    >
    > Does anyone have an online source of information that might allow me
    > to make the site, if not the same, at least readable with old NS?
    > Without doing damage to my modernization efforts?
    >
    > You can see what is happening at
    > http://johnmcgaw.com/testsite/index.html . TIA


    Have a look at the @import method
    http://www.ericmeyeroncss.com/bonus/trick-hide.html

    --
    PeterMcC
    If you feel that any of the above is incorrect,
    inappropriate or offensive in any way,
    please ignore it and accept my apologies.
    PeterMcC, Jan 8, 2004
    #3
  4. John McGaw

    kayodeok Guest

    "John McGaw" <> wrote in
    news:GKhLb.1021$:

    > I'm almost physically sick -- I've spent some considerable time
    > updating my personal website and dragging it kicking and
    > screaming into the XHTML 1.1 "pure" CSS realm. I was really
    > happy about the results after extensive testing with all the
    > modern browsers I could get my hands on since in every one of
    > them the appearance was virtually identical.
    >
    > Then, on a whim, I downloaded and installed NS 4.9 and looked at
    > it. HORRORS! How could anything be that bad?
    >
    > Does anyone have an online source of information that might
    > allow me to make the site, if not the same, at least readable
    > with old NS? Without doing damage to my modernization efforts?


    If the site is well structured, then Netscape 4.x users will still
    be able to see and navigate the content when you hide the
    stylesheet... though I have to add that Netscape 4.x users must be
    used to seeing broken pages by now.

    How to hide CSS from buggy browsers
    http://w3development.de/css/hide_css_from_browsers/

    --
    Kayode Okeyode
    http://www.kayodeok.co.uk/weblog/
    http://www.kayodeok.btinternet.co.uk/favorites/webdesign.htm
    kayodeok, Jan 8, 2004
    #4
  5. John McGaw

    John McGaw Guest

    "altamir" <> wrote in message
    news:Xns946ACDB09D1F5alt2003@213.180.128.20...
    > "John McGaw" <> wrote in
    > news:GKhLb.1021$:
    >
    > > Then, on a whim, I downloaded and installed NS 4.9 and looked at it.
    > > HORRORS! How could anything be that bad?
    > >
    > > Does anyone have an online source of information that might allow me
    > > to make the site, if not the same, at least readable with old NS?
    > > Without doing damage to my modernization efforts?
    > >
    > > You can see what is happening at
    > > http://johnmcgaw.com/testsite/index.html . TIA

    >
    > This is what you can do:
    >
    > <link rel="stylesheet" href="style.css" type="text/css" media="all" />
    > or
    > <style type="text/css">@import "style.css";</style>
    >
    > and NS4.x won't see any CSS
    >
    > See also http://centricle.com/ref/css/filters/
    >
    > --
    > altamir


    I am presently using the <link.../> version as you show but don't use the
    media="all". I take it that this is what keeps the old NS browsers from
    seeing the CSS?
    --
    John McGaw
    [Knoxville, TN, USA]

    Return address will not work. Please
    reply in group or through my website:
    http://johnmcgaw.com
    John McGaw, Jan 8, 2004
    #5
  6. John McGaw

    altamir Guest

    "John McGaw" <> wrote in news:u0iLb.4184$CM4.909
    @bignews1.bellsouth.net:

    > I am presently using the <link.../> version as you show but don't use the
    > media="all". I take it that this is what keeps the old NS browsers from
    > seeing the CSS?


    Yes.

    I also wonder if it works for IE4.

    --
    altamir
    altamir, Jan 8, 2004
    #6
  7. altamir wrote:

    > "John McGaw" <> wrote in news:u0iLb.4184$CM4.909
    > @bignews1.bellsouth.net:
    >
    >> I am presently using the <link.../> version as you show but don't use the
    >> media="all". I take it that this is what keeps the old NS browsers from
    >> seeing the CSS?

    >
    > Yes.
    >
    > I also wonder if it works for IE4.


    No, but IE4 actually does quite a decent job of CSS. Better than IE 5.x in
    many cases.

    --
    Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
    Contact Me - http://www.goddamn.co.uk/tobyink/?page=132
    Toby A Inkster, Jan 8, 2004
    #7
  8. John McGaw

    Steve R. Guest

    John McGaw wrote in message ...
    > I'm almost physically sick -- I've spent some considerable time updating
    > my personal website and dragging it kicking and screaming .....


    You've done one hell of a job there.

    Just forget the obsolete browsers. 98% of people using *popular*
    browsers will be able to see it :~)

    Folks with obsolete browsers have difficulty in viewing most things,
    so they will be used to problems anyway :~(
    Steve R., Jan 8, 2004
    #8
  9. Toby A Inkster, Jan 8, 2004
    #9
  10. Steve R. wrote:
    > Just forget the obsolete browsers. 98% of people using *popular*
    > browsers will be able to see it :~)


    Is the money of people with obsolete browsers invalid?
    Leif K-Brooks, Jan 8, 2004
    #10
  11. John McGaw

    Steve R. Guest

    Leif K-Brooks wrote in message ...
    > Is the money of people with obsolete browsers invalid?


    2% - who worries? If they haven't got the cash to upgrade
    they ain't gonna spend it on the web :~)
    Steve R., Jan 8, 2004
    #11
  12. John McGaw

    Mark Parnell Guest

    On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 21:45:16 GMT, Steve R.NOSPAM declared in alt.html:
    >
    > 2% - who worries? If they haven't got the cash to upgrade
    > they ain't gonna spend it on the web :~)


    Since when does it cost money to upgrade your browser (unless you are
    buying Opera, of course)?

    --
    Mark Parnell
    http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au
    Mark Parnell, Jan 8, 2004
    #12
  13. John McGaw

    pragma Guest

    John McGaw <> wrote:
    > I'm almost physically sick -- I've spent some considerable time updating my
    > personal website and dragging it kicking and screaming into the XHTML 1.1
    > "pure" CSS realm.
    > http://johnmcgaw.com/testsite/index.html


    Not quite :)

    If you're using XHTML 1.1 you are required to send a text/xml+xhtml
    content-type header. A text/html header to make the browser interpret
    the code as plain old HTML4 is not allowed anymore.

    With XHTML 1.0 a text/html content type is optional though the use of a
    proper xhtml type is encouraged.

    Before you try your new pages with the correct content type in MSIE have
    a large brandy on standby ;-)

    'Real' XHTML is years away from being a practical option for most authors
    and it isn't NS4 that's going to be the problem. It might be advisable to
    use a XHTML 1.0 doctype, even if you want to continue validating to the
    1.1 spec.
    pragma, Jan 8, 2004
    #13
  14. John McGaw

    pragma Guest

    NOSPAM <stevie_ritchie(NOSPAM)@hotmail.com> wrote:
    > Leif K-Brooks wrote in message ...
    > > Is the money of people with obsolete browsers invalid?

    >
    > 2% - who worries?


    Depends what 2% is. The problem with percentages is that they're
    relative. 2% of 100,000 hits is still a lot of people.


    > If they haven't got the cash to upgrade
    > they ain't gonna spend it on the web :~)


    In my experience, having no money or a slow machine is rarely the reason
    people still use NS4. There are other browsers that would run just as
    comfortably and give them a better web experience. Many people just don't
    know any better and it's naive people who are often the easiest to
    separate from their cash ;)

    Last year I saw someone from 808 State (a kind of techno-ish band) post a
    message saying they were still using NS2 because he "didn't know there was
    a new one out". There are a lot of consumers who pay no attention to things
    like upgrades because they see computers and the web as something like a TV
    but a bit more fancy, even if they're not technophobes.
    pragma, Jan 8, 2004
    #14
  15. pragma wrote:

    > If you're using XHTML 1.1 you are required to send a text/xml+xhtml
    > content-type header.


    Really? You're required to send a silly unregistered MIME type that
    doesn't work in any browsers at all?

    I think I'll stick with application/xhtml+xml.

    --
    Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
    Contact Me - http://www.goddamn.co.uk/tobyink/?page=132
    Toby A Inkster, Jan 8, 2004
    #15
  16. John McGaw

    kayodeok Guest

    "pragma" <3> wrote in
    news::

    > In my experience, having no money or a slow machine is rarely
    > the reason people still use NS4. There are other browsers that
    > would run just as comfortably and give them a better web
    > experience. Many people just don't know any better and it's
    > naive people who are often the easiest to separate from their
    > cash ;)


    I have been unable to locate the link but I once read that the
    proportion of Netscape 4.x users is higher

    1. In third world countries because the browsers are usually
    donated or come with donated PCs and the cost of downloading a new
    browser in those countries is too high.

    2. Universities tend to stick with Netscape 4.x because they do not
    have the staff to upgrade all copies of the browsers on all PCs
    (actually I think this explanation is from Alan Flavell over at
    CIWAH).

    --
    Kayode Okeyode
    http://www.kayodeok.co.uk/weblog/
    http://www.kayodeok.btinternet.co.uk/favorites/webdesign.htm
    kayodeok, Jan 8, 2004
    #16
  17. John McGaw

    Dylan Parry Guest

    Mark Parnell wrote:

    > On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 21:45:16 GMT, Steve R.NOSPAM declared in alt.html:
    >>
    >> 2% - who worries? If they haven't got the cash to upgrade
    >> they ain't gonna spend it on the web :~)

    >
    > Since when does it cost money to upgrade your browser (unless you are
    > buying Opera, of course)?


    If you are on a dialup paying by the minute, then upgrading a browser can
    cost a hell of a lot.

    --
    Dylan Parry
    http://www.webpageworkshop.co.uk - FREE Web tutorials and references
    Dylan Parry, Jan 8, 2004
    #17
  18. John McGaw

    kchayka Guest

    John McGaw wrote:
    >
    > You can see what is happening at http://johnmcgaw.com/testsite/index.html .


    FYI, NS4 is not the only issue with this page. Take a look with any
    gecko browser at an enlarged text size. At least only the home
    page shows this particular problem.

    > TIA


    You're welcome. :)

    --
    To email a reply, remove (dash)un(dash). Mail sent to the un
    address is considered spam and automatically deleted.
    kchayka, Jan 8, 2004
    #18
  19. John McGaw

    Mark Parnell Guest

    On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 21:59:21 +0000, pragma declared in alt.html:
    >
    > If you're using XHTML 1.1 you are required to send a text/xml+xhtml
    > content-type header.


    That would be application/xml+xhtml. :)

    --
    Mark Parnell
    http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au
    Mark Parnell, Jan 8, 2004
    #19
  20. John McGaw

    Mark Parnell Guest

    On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 22:52:19 +0000, Dylan Parry declared in alt.html:
    >
    > If you are on a dialup paying by the minute, then upgrading a browser can
    > cost a hell of a lot.


    They come for free on the cover CD of most computer magazines. OK, so
    you've got to buy the magazine, but most computer users will do that at
    some point anyway. Or they can get a friend not paying by the minute[1]
    to download it for them and burn it to a CD.

    There are various reasons for people not upgrading their browsers. The
    cost involved, while it may be the reason for a few, is not IMHO
    anywhere near the most common reason.

    [1] Does anyone actually pay by the minute these days, anyway? ;-)

    --
    Mark Parnell
    http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au
    Mark Parnell, Jan 8, 2004
    #20
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