Advanced XML/XSLT Training

Discussion in 'XML' started by atxryan, Sep 1, 2006.

  1. atxryan

    atxryan Guest

    I'm searching for a great XML/XSLT training course that my company can
    send me to and, while I'm finding a lot that offer on-site training,
    I'm not finding too many which offer classes by city. I want to go to a
    training company location, rather bring someone in for a custom
    training class.

    Anyone have any recommendations?

    -RYAN
    atxryan, Sep 1, 2006
    #1
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  2. Haven't worked with any for-hire training, so if that's what you really
    want I can't offer advice.

    There's a lot of good free info available, you know; I'm biased, but my
    standard pointer is to the tutorials on IBM's DeveloperWorks website.

    Note that you should probably figure out what you want to do with XML
    first; that will provide motivation, focus, and help you select which
    topics are going to be most important for your specific applications.

    --
    () ASCII Ribbon Campaign | Joe Kesselman
    /\ Stamp out HTML e-mail! | System architexture and kinetic poetry
    Joe Kesselman, Sep 1, 2006
    #2
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  3. atxryan

    atxryan Guest

    Thanks, Joe.

    I am looking for-hire training though. Preferably in a fun city. ;-)

    I have a decent grasp of XML/XSLT/XPATH from work I've done in the past
    and books/online references I've read. What I'm looking for is to fill
    in the gaps and extend my abilities past the simple implementations.

    -RYAN


    Joe Kesselman wrote:
    > Haven't worked with any for-hire training, so if that's what you really
    > want I can't offer advice.
    >
    > There's a lot of good free info available, you know; I'm biased, but my
    > standard pointer is to the tutorials on IBM's DeveloperWorks website.
    >
    > Note that you should probably figure out what you want to do with XML
    > first; that will provide motivation, focus, and help you select which
    > topics are going to be most important for your specific applications.
    >
    > --
    > () ASCII Ribbon Campaign | Joe Kesselman
    > /\ Stamp out HTML e-mail! | System architexture and kinetic poetry
    atxryan, Sep 1, 2006
    #3
  4. atxryan

    Andy Dingley Guest

    atxryan wrote:

    > I'm searching for a great XML/XSLT training course


    Haven't seen one. XSLT is _hard_, and it's not tied to a particular
    product domain, such as configuring Cisco routers. This combination of
    hard and generalised has never been a fertile one for off-the-shelf
    courses. Chances are that you may well already be in advance of
    anything that's out there. The profitable market for offering training
    like this is in the bulk courses, not the heavyweight stuff.

    You might find it useful to inquire with the serious XSLT consultants
    (try Jenni Tennison in the UK) -- maybe they either offer, or know of.
    high-level courses.
    Andy Dingley, Sep 3, 2006
    #4
  5. atxryan

    Peter Flynn Guest

    atxryan wrote:
    > I'm searching for a great XML/XSLT training course that my company can
    > send me to


    You just missed the best :) The CSW XML SummerSchool
    (see http://www.xmlsummerschool.com).

    ///Peter
    --
    Claimer: I chair one of the sessions.
    Peter Flynn, Sep 3, 2006
    #5
  6. Andy Dingley wrote:
    > Haven't seen one. XSLT is _hard_


    I don't think so, actually; it just requires a different approach than
    the programming languages folks are most familiar with. It's best to
    think of it in terms of pattern-matching ("whenever you see this,
    replace it with that") rather than procedural programming ("do this,
    then do that").

    But, yes, it's a real programming language (I believe XSLT is
    turing-complete) and so you have to learn to work methodically and to
    break problems up into managable parts. You need to understand the
    concept of recursion, since as a single-assignment/functional language
    XSLT works in that mode in places where other languages would write
    loops. And there are some tasks where XSLT -- especially XSLT 1.0 --
    really doesn't have an "obvious" solution and the fastest thing to do is
    to look at one of the XSLT Frequently Asked Questions documents to see
    how folks have solved similar problems in the past.

    But nothing's going to make you an expert programmer overnight, in any
    language; seeing more examples helps, but it really needs practice.

    --
    () ASCII Ribbon Campaign | Joe Kesselman
    /\ Stamp out HTML e-mail! | System architexture and kinetic poetry
    Joe Kesselman, Sep 3, 2006
    #6
  7. Joe Kesselman wrote:

    > Andy Dingley wrote:
    >> Haven't seen one. XSLT is _hard_

    >
    > I don't think so, actually; it just requires a different approach than
    > the programming languages folks are most familiar with. It's best to


    Yes, "a different approach", that's _hard_.
    Honestly, most developers learn one language when they
    are young, and everything differing from this language
    is _hard_ to understand for them.

    > think of it in terms of pattern-matching ("whenever you see this,
    > replace it with that") rather than procedural programming ("do this,
    > then do that").


    That's funny, I know a language which is also based
    on pattern-matching in the same way (awk). This other
    language is also very effective, looks so natural to
    some of, but is _hard_ for most developers.

    > break problems up into managable parts. You need to understand the
    > concept of recursion, since as a single-assignment/functional language


    In most courses on software development, recursion is
    non-existant, because it only scares humble newbies.
    Any language _requiring_ you to understand recursion will
    never be a mainstream language. Simply because of user-habits
    and not because _I_ am too stupid for using recursion.

    > But nothing's going to make you an expert programmer overnight, in any
    > language; seeing more examples helps, but it really needs practice.


    Right.
    =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=FCrgen_Kahrs?=, Sep 3, 2006
    #7
  8. Jürgen Kahrs wrote:
    > Yes, "a different approach", that's _hard_.
    > Honestly, most developers learn one language when they
    > are young, and everything differing from this language
    > is _hard_ to understand for them.


    Hm. Maybe I was lucky; my education focused on "learning how to learn"
    and included exposure to a variety of languages using different syntax
    and metaphors.

    I really don't agree that it's hard. It just requires exposure to a few
    new concepts and a bit of practice. Admittedly, some folks resist both.

    > In most courses on software development, recursion is
    > non-existant, because it only scares humble newbies.


    I respectfully disagree that any course which doesn't cover recursion is
    a class on "software development". It's a basic programming technique,
    used in all languages when you have nontrivial problems to solve.

    The problem here may be that serious XSLT is real programming, not
    script hacking.

    --
    () ASCII Ribbon Campaign | Joe Kesselman
    /\ Stamp out HTML e-mail! | System architexture and kinetic poetry
    Joe Kesselman, Sep 3, 2006
    #8
  9. > The problem here may be that serious XSLT is real programming, not script
    > hacking.


    People that are saying "XSLT is hard" generalize too much.

    XSLT is hard the same way writing English text is hard -- for definite
    groups of people.

    On the other side, XSLT is not hard at all, it is fun.

    Just look at FXSL and see what can be accomplished with XSLT.

    I agree that for people, who find it hard to think, XSLT will be really
    hard -- as it requires one to think.


    Cheers,
    Dimitre Novatchev

    "Joe Kesselman" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Jürgen Kahrs wrote:
    >> Yes, "a different approach", that's _hard_.
    >> Honestly, most developers learn one language when they
    >> are young, and everything differing from this language
    >> is _hard_ to understand for them.

    >
    > Hm. Maybe I was lucky; my education focused on "learning how to learn" and
    > included exposure to a variety of languages using different syntax and
    > metaphors.
    >
    > I really don't agree that it's hard. It just requires exposure to a few
    > new concepts and a bit of practice. Admittedly, some folks resist both.
    >
    >> In most courses on software development, recursion is
    >> non-existant, because it only scares humble newbies.

    >
    > I respectfully disagree that any course which doesn't cover recursion is a
    > class on "software development". It's a basic programming technique, used
    > in all languages when you have nontrivial problems to solve.
    >
    > The problem here may be that serious XSLT is real programming, not script
    > hacking.
    >
    > --
    > () ASCII Ribbon Campaign | Joe Kesselman
    > /\ Stamp out HTML e-mail! | System architexture and kinetic poetry
    Dimitre Novatchev, Sep 3, 2006
    #9
  10. atxryan

    Andy Dingley Guest

    Peter Flynn wrote:

    > You just missed the best :) The CSW XML SummerSchool
    > (see http://www.xmlsummerschool.com).


    Say Hi! to Gary Cornelius for me :cool:

    (I always thought he was destined for great things)
    Andy Dingley, Sep 4, 2006
    #10
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