Advantages to using xml in a small translation and localisation company

Discussion in 'XML' started by Simon Harvey, Jul 27, 2003.

  1. Simon Harvey

    Simon Harvey Guest

    Whato chaps,

    I work (or am hoping to work! :) for a company that specialises in the
    following:

    - Localisation of media - including software, manuals, literature and
    training material.
    - Creating training material themselves in many langauges built to order.

    The main thing I'm thinking about for the company is maybe a sort of content
    management system whereby they can provide a system that allows customers to
    organise their training material and even make new material on the fly.
    Thats just one area.

    On the whole, I am wondering if anyone has any ideas about how xml, xsl and
    all the rest of the new data technologies could be used in a company that
    specialises in translation of all sorts of material but especially, training
    material, marketing material and business presentations

    Any help would be really really greatfully received

    Thanks everyone

    Simon
    Simon Harvey, Jul 27, 2003
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Simon Harvey

    Chris Barber Guest

    Thats a fairly large scope!

    There are two mechanisms where XML may help:

    1. You have multi-language materials where the XML could contain a reference
    to the 'virtual' material but the child XML would contain the real
    references to the materials (one per available language). When allowing
    users to choose a material, they would only be given choices where the
    language exists for them or they could be given the choice to download in
    any language.

    <xml>
    <materials>
    <material title="A document">
    <localised>
    <materiallocalised language="French" title="Le document"
    ref="get it from here url">
    <materiallocalised language="German" title="Ein
    document" ref="get it from here url">
    </localised>
    </material>
    </materials>
    </xml>

    Please excuse my useless french and german!

    2. Use XML to 'generate' the materials in HTML / PDF form in which case the
    source document would contain the base representation of the document and
    embedded / referenced document(s) would contain the localised strings,
    images etc. An XSL stylesheet with a parameter passed in would generate the
    relevant localised version.

    * SOURCE XSLT *
    ...
    <xsl:parameter name="language">French</xsl:parameter>
    <xsl:variable name="localisedstrings"
    select="document({$language}.xml)/root"/>
    ...
    <!-- The title appears here selected from the referenced localised xml
    file that is determined from the passed in parameter -->
    <p id="title">
    <xsl:value-of select="$localisedstrings/title"/>
    <img src={$localisedstrings/title/@imagesrc} style="float: right"/>
    </p>
    ...

    etc.

    * SAMPLE LOCALISED STRINGS XML - called French.xml *
    * Others would exists as German.xml etc.
    *

    <root>
    <title imagesrc="titleimage_french.gif">Documentation de l'internet
    localise</title>
    </root>

    XSL-FO would obviously give you PDF capabilities - as would a component that
    transfroms HTML output to PDF (such as ABCPDF3).

    OK - that's pretty basic of course and I'm sure there are other systems out
    there to handle this sort of thing but I hope you see what I'm trying to
    demonstrate.

    I have no idea how the encoding would be affected by this but I'm sure it
    would be workable.

    Chris.

    "Simon Harvey" <sh856531@microsofts_free_emal_service.com> wrote in message
    news:TZPUa.50273$9.net...
    Whato chaps,

    I work (or am hoping to work! :) for a company that specialises in the
    following:

    - Localisation of media - including software, manuals, literature and
    training material.
    - Creating training material themselves in many langauges built to order.

    The main thing I'm thinking about for the company is maybe a sort of content
    management system whereby they can provide a system that allows customers to
    organise their training material and even make new material on the fly.
    Thats just one area.

    On the whole, I am wondering if anyone has any ideas about how xml, xsl and
    all the rest of the new data technologies could be used in a company that
    specialises in translation of all sorts of material but especially, training
    material, marketing material and business presentations

    Any help would be really really greatfully received

    Thanks everyone

    Simon
    Chris Barber, Jul 27, 2003
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Simon Harvey

    Marrow Guest

    Hi Chris,

    > <xml>
    > <materials>
    > <material title="A document">
    > <localised>
    > <materiallocalised language="French" title="Le

    document"
    > ref="get it from here url">
    > <materiallocalised language="German" title="Ein
    > document" ref="get it from here url">
    > </localised>
    > </material>
    > </materials>
    > </xml>


    One small point - it would be better to use the existing @xml:lang attribute
    rather than re-invent your own language attributes. The @xml:lang attribute
    has several advatnages, including the ability to use the lang() XPath
    function.

    Cheers
    Marrow
    http://www.marrowsoft.com - home of Xselerator (XSLT IDE and debugger)
    http://www.topxml.com/Xselerator


    "Chris Barber" <> wrote in message
    news:#$...
    > Thats a fairly large scope!
    >
    > There are two mechanisms where XML may help:
    >
    > 1. You have multi-language materials where the XML could contain a

    reference
    > to the 'virtual' material but the child XML would contain the real
    > references to the materials (one per available language). When allowing
    > users to choose a material, they would only be given choices where the
    > language exists for them or they could be given the choice to download in
    > any language.
    >
    > <xml>
    > <materials>
    > <material title="A document">
    > <localised>
    > <materiallocalised language="French" title="Le

    document"
    > ref="get it from here url">
    > <materiallocalised language="German" title="Ein
    > document" ref="get it from here url">
    > </localised>
    > </material>
    > </materials>
    > </xml>
    >
    > Please excuse my useless french and german!
    >
    > 2. Use XML to 'generate' the materials in HTML / PDF form in which case

    the
    > source document would contain the base representation of the document and
    > embedded / referenced document(s) would contain the localised strings,
    > images etc. An XSL stylesheet with a parameter passed in would generate

    the
    > relevant localised version.
    >
    > * SOURCE XSLT *
    > ...
    > <xsl:parameter name="language">French</xsl:parameter>
    > <xsl:variable name="localisedstrings"
    > select="document({$language}.xml)/root"/>
    > ...
    > <!-- The title appears here selected from the referenced localised xml
    > file that is determined from the passed in parameter -->
    > <p id="title">
    > <xsl:value-of select="$localisedstrings/title"/>
    > <img src={$localisedstrings/title/@imagesrc} style="float:

    right"/>
    > </p>
    > ...
    >
    > etc.
    >
    > * SAMPLE LOCALISED STRINGS XML - called French.xml *
    > * Others would exists as German.xml etc.
    > *
    >
    > <root>
    > <title imagesrc="titleimage_french.gif">Documentation de

    l'internet
    > localise</title>
    > </root>
    >
    > XSL-FO would obviously give you PDF capabilities - as would a component

    that
    > transfroms HTML output to PDF (such as ABCPDF3).
    >
    > OK - that's pretty basic of course and I'm sure there are other systems

    out
    > there to handle this sort of thing but I hope you see what I'm trying to
    > demonstrate.
    >
    > I have no idea how the encoding would be affected by this but I'm sure it
    > would be workable.
    >
    > Chris.
    >
    > "Simon Harvey" <sh856531@microsofts_free_emal_service.com> wrote in

    message
    > news:TZPUa.50273$9.net...
    > Whato chaps,
    >
    > I work (or am hoping to work! :) for a company that specialises in the
    > following:
    >
    > - Localisation of media - including software, manuals, literature and
    > training material.
    > - Creating training material themselves in many langauges built to order.
    >
    > The main thing I'm thinking about for the company is maybe a sort of

    content
    > management system whereby they can provide a system that allows customers

    to
    > organise their training material and even make new material on the fly.
    > Thats just one area.
    >
    > On the whole, I am wondering if anyone has any ideas about how xml, xsl

    and
    > all the rest of the new data technologies could be used in a company that
    > specialises in translation of all sorts of material but especially,

    training
    > material, marketing material and business presentations
    >
    > Any help would be really really greatfully received
    >
    > Thanks everyone
    >
    > Simon
    >
    >
    >
    Marrow, Jul 27, 2003
    #3
  4. Simon Harvey

    Simon Harvey Guest

    Thanks Chris and Marrow

    Well, the first example that you give, I hadnt really thought about. But
    that could be a good approach so thatnks for that. You know, I would
    probably try to use that in conjunction with the second approach.

    The second approach is what I was thinking as well.
    Two questions:

    1. What is the language element for? Why was it included?
    2. What I am really after is some ideas on other applications that would
    make the whole xml change more worth while. Does anyone have any killer
    applications that could be used in a small translation and localisation
    company? Unlike the big boys, we can't affor to invest a lot of resources in
    an area that won't really make much of a difference to the business. I have
    come up with some advantages, such as distributing material in different
    formats, but i dont know how much market there is going to be for that.
    3. Another quick question. Based on your experience guys, do you think the
    stylesheets should be stored on the file system or in a database? File
    system sounds messy? Any thoughts?

    I'm somewhat apprehensive about this are because I would be the only
    developer at the company, and I am a bit wary about taking us deep into xml
    because that may mean that it becomes very hard for the other staff to make
    changes to documents. Making the slightest changes to a stylesheet, at the
    moment, is still fairly complicated even using the tools that are available
    (thanks marrow).

    I think this is the underlying dilema that smaller companies are facing at
    the moment. Companies in the media business could probably all benefit from
    using xml and xsl technologies, but at the moment the resources required are
    largely out of their reach. Most publishing companies are not specialised in
    computer technologies any more than they need to be, and this is compounded
    by the complexity and newness of XML technologies.

    What do you think?

    Oh and do you know of any companies looking for a really handsome, charming,
    talented, intelligent, driven, graduate with far more experience and skills
    than his peers? :)

    Kind regards everyone

    Simon
    Simon Harvey, Jul 27, 2003
    #4
  5. Simon Harvey

    Chris Barber Guest

    Thanks Marrow.

    I've looked at a few references for this but I'm not sure that it would be
    fully appropriate for an entire document in multiple languages?

    A possible problematic example would be a manual in French, Italian, English
    and German. If the language sections were contained within the same XML
    source then the source would conceivably be up to 4x larger than a single
    language source.
    This could present issues with speed and maintainability?
    It's also feasible that a particular document might want to use a different
    layout to the other documents (Chinese springs to mind). I can also see
    issues where different authors are maintaining the individual languages -
    source control for a single document could become very problematic.
    Of course there are a multitude of issues with a multi-document system.

    I wasn't making a proposal as such, just trying to put up some scenarios as
    starting points.

    Cheers,

    Chris.

    "Marrow" <> wrote in message
    news:9NRUa.1656$...
    Hi Chris,

    > <xml>
    > <materials>
    > <material title="A document">
    > <localised>
    > <materiallocalised language="French" title="Le

    document"
    > ref="get it from here url">
    > <materiallocalised language="German" title="Ein
    > document" ref="get it from here url">
    > </localised>
    > </material>
    > </materials>
    > </xml>


    One small point - it would be better to use the existing @xml:lang attribute
    rather than re-invent your own language attributes. The @xml:lang attribute
    has several advatnages, including the ability to use the lang() XPath
    function.

    Cheers
    Marrow
    http://www.marrowsoft.com - home of Xselerator (XSLT IDE and debugger)
    http://www.topxml.com/Xselerator


    "Chris Barber" <> wrote in message
    news:#$...
    > Thats a fairly large scope!
    >
    > There are two mechanisms where XML may help:
    >
    > 1. You have multi-language materials where the XML could contain a

    reference
    > to the 'virtual' material but the child XML would contain the real
    > references to the materials (one per available language). When allowing
    > users to choose a material, they would only be given choices where the
    > language exists for them or they could be given the choice to download in
    > any language.
    >
    > <xml>
    > <materials>
    > <material title="A document">
    > <localised>
    > <materiallocalised language="French" title="Le

    document"
    > ref="get it from here url">
    > <materiallocalised language="German" title="Ein
    > document" ref="get it from here url">
    > </localised>
    > </material>
    > </materials>
    > </xml>
    >
    > Please excuse my useless french and german!
    >
    > 2. Use XML to 'generate' the materials in HTML / PDF form in which case

    the
    > source document would contain the base representation of the document and
    > embedded / referenced document(s) would contain the localised strings,
    > images etc. An XSL stylesheet with a parameter passed in would generate

    the
    > relevant localised version.
    >
    > * SOURCE XSLT *
    > ...
    > <xsl:parameter name="language">French</xsl:parameter>
    > <xsl:variable name="localisedstrings"
    > select="document({$language}.xml)/root"/>
    > ...
    > <!-- The title appears here selected from the referenced localised xml
    > file that is determined from the passed in parameter -->
    > <p id="title">
    > <xsl:value-of select="$localisedstrings/title"/>
    > <img src={$localisedstrings/title/@imagesrc} style="float:

    right"/>
    > </p>
    > ...
    >
    > etc.
    >
    > * SAMPLE LOCALISED STRINGS XML - called French.xml *
    > * Others would exists as German.xml etc.
    > *
    >
    > <root>
    > <title imagesrc="titleimage_french.gif">Documentation de

    l'internet
    > localise</title>
    > </root>
    >
    > XSL-FO would obviously give you PDF capabilities - as would a component

    that
    > transfroms HTML output to PDF (such as ABCPDF3).
    >
    > OK - that's pretty basic of course and I'm sure there are other systems

    out
    > there to handle this sort of thing but I hope you see what I'm trying to
    > demonstrate.
    >
    > I have no idea how the encoding would be affected by this but I'm sure it
    > would be workable.
    >
    > Chris.
    >
    > "Simon Harvey" <sh856531@microsofts_free_emal_service.com> wrote in

    message
    > news:TZPUa.50273$9.net...
    > Whato chaps,
    >
    > I work (or am hoping to work! :) for a company that specialises in the
    > following:
    >
    > - Localisation of media - including software, manuals, literature and
    > training material.
    > - Creating training material themselves in many langauges built to order.
    >
    > The main thing I'm thinking about for the company is maybe a sort of

    content
    > management system whereby they can provide a system that allows customers

    to
    > organise their training material and even make new material on the fly.
    > Thats just one area.
    >
    > On the whole, I am wondering if anyone has any ideas about how xml, xsl

    and
    > all the rest of the new data technologies could be used in a company that
    > specialises in translation of all sorts of material but especially,

    training
    > material, marketing material and business presentations
    >
    > Any help would be really really greatfully received
    >
    > Thanks everyone
    >
    > Simon
    >
    >
    >
    Chris Barber, Jul 27, 2003
    #5
  6. Simon Harvey

    Marrow Guest

    Hi Chris,

    Ah, I wasn't really commenting on which approach to use - I thought you'd
    covered that thoroughly. I was just commenting that, if using an approach
    that invloved attributes that defined language content of a specific
    node/nodes, it would be better to use @xml:lang.

    As to whether to use a multiple document approach (with each translation in
    a seperate document) or just a single document - it depends on the system.
    But in this situation (say, for manuals) then yes, I would imagine a
    multiple document approach would involve less hassles. Although there might
    still be a place for an additional single XML document for semi static
    stuff - for example, translations of words like 'index', 'page', 'chapter'
    etc.

    Cheers
    Marrow

    "Chris Barber" <> wrote in message
    news:uaIdz#...
    > Thanks Marrow.
    >
    > I've looked at a few references for this but I'm not sure that it would be
    > fully appropriate for an entire document in multiple languages?
    >
    > A possible problematic example would be a manual in French, Italian,

    English
    > and German. If the language sections were contained within the same XML
    > source then the source would conceivably be up to 4x larger than a single
    > language source.
    > This could present issues with speed and maintainability?
    > It's also feasible that a particular document might want to use a

    different
    > layout to the other documents (Chinese springs to mind). I can also see
    > issues where different authors are maintaining the individual languages -
    > source control for a single document could become very problematic.
    > Of course there are a multitude of issues with a multi-document system.
    >
    > I wasn't making a proposal as such, just trying to put up some scenarios

    as
    > starting points.
    >
    > Cheers,
    >
    > Chris.
    Marrow, Jul 27, 2003
    #6
  7. Simon Harvey

    Simon Harvey Guest

    Thanks for that Chris,

    Here's the important thing - most small companies don't have a dedicated IT
    staff able to make constant changes to the site at short notice. The usual
    model is that there is a single individual that has a number of roles, one
    of them being maintaining the website. That produces a bottleneck and
    eventually comapnies begin to resent making new content, which is a shame,
    because content is exactly what makes a website interesting.

    So, my point is, I'm going to be that person, UNLESS, there is someway to
    make XSLT hidden from the content makers. I have to say that I wouldnt think
    making XSLT docs is easier than say jsp or asp.net though. The difference is
    though, that XSLT has a number of well known advantages. The problem is
    using xslt in a way that doesnt scare non-techs

    Simon
    Simon Harvey, Jul 28, 2003
    #7
  8. Simon Harvey

    Chris Barber Guest

    XSLT can be hidden but it does mean that you have to have in place some form
    of content management accessible to all. I've seen it done in a web
    environment (image upload, document upload etc.) and dynamic HTML editing
    using the MS html edit control.
    It should be possible to have a basic XML layout for a document that defines
    what the document is (eg. ID, name, description, keywords etc.) and then
    allow the specific document to be edited from a series of defined templates.
    Storing it all in a database then allow the site content to be dynamically
    created using the defined XSLT documents combined with the XML.

    Chris.

    "Simon Harvey" <sh856531@microsofts_free_emal_service.com> wrote in message
    news:_h7Va.50438$9.net...
    Thanks for that Chris,

    Here's the important thing - most small companies don't have a dedicated IT
    staff able to make constant changes to the site at short notice. The usual
    model is that there is a single individual that has a number of roles, one
    of them being maintaining the website. That produces a bottleneck and
    eventually comapnies begin to resent making new content, which is a shame,
    because content is exactly what makes a website interesting.

    So, my point is, I'm going to be that person, UNLESS, there is someway to
    make XSLT hidden from the content makers. I have to say that I wouldnt think
    making XSLT docs is easier than say jsp or asp.net though. The difference is
    though, that XSLT has a number of well known advantages. The problem is
    using xslt in a way that doesnt scare non-techs

    Simon
    Chris Barber, Jul 28, 2003
    #8
  9. Simon Harvey

    Simon Harvey Guest

    Your right there chris, and that exactly what I'm looking at actually.

    A couple of questions:

    How can Dynamic HTML editing be done in a browser. I actually answered
    someone else's question on this very topic. He wanted the users to be able
    to create their own templates in a browser. The only things I have come up
    with is a technique that MS Sharepoint uses to allow the user to customise
    pages, put I havent the foggiest how they do that, because I would love to
    know.

    Also, what is the MS HTML edit control. are we in the same ball park with
    these two things.

    At the moment I am using Macromedia Contribute to do this sort of stuff. Its
    a god send for non tech content authors and is a great price. I'd like some
    other options as well though.

    Simon


    "Chris Barber" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > XSLT can be hidden but it does mean that you have to have in place some

    form
    > of content management accessible to all. I've seen it done in a web
    > environment (image upload, document upload etc.) and dynamic HTML editing
    > using the MS html edit control.
    > It should be possible to have a basic XML layout for a document that

    defines
    > what the document is (eg. ID, name, description, keywords etc.) and then
    > allow the specific document to be edited from a series of defined

    templates.
    > Storing it all in a database then allow the site content to be dynamically
    > created using the defined XSLT documents combined with the XML.
    >
    > Chris.
    >
    > "Simon Harvey" <sh856531@microsofts_free_emal_service.com> wrote in

    message
    > news:_h7Va.50438$9.net...
    > Thanks for that Chris,
    >
    > Here's the important thing - most small companies don't have a dedicated

    IT
    > staff able to make constant changes to the site at short notice. The usual
    > model is that there is a single individual that has a number of roles, one
    > of them being maintaining the website. That produces a bottleneck and
    > eventually comapnies begin to resent making new content, which is a shame,
    > because content is exactly what makes a website interesting.
    >
    > So, my point is, I'm going to be that person, UNLESS, there is someway to
    > make XSLT hidden from the content makers. I have to say that I wouldnt

    think
    > making XSLT docs is easier than say jsp or asp.net though. The difference

    is
    > though, that XSLT has a number of well known advantages. The problem is
    > using xslt in a way that doesnt scare non-techs
    >
    > Simon
    >
    >
    >
    Simon Harvey, Jul 28, 2003
    #9
  10. Simon Harvey

    Chris Barber Guest

    Found it - once I get it dragged up to the right server I'll bung it up
    online for you and let you have a login (it's a database login this time),
    not a NT user account.

    It's pretty complex but it looks like the majority of the DHTML editor bit
    is in one page and encapsulated within a JavaScript include file.

    Chris.


    "Chris Barber" <> wrote in message
    news:%23DV$...
    OK - I'll have to dig in the archives but a friend of mine gave me a copy of
    his site that does dynamic - to database - HTML editing in the browser using
    an ActiveX control (dhtmled.ocx ?). Allows images to be uploaded and then
    selected and inserted into the HTML page.

    Chris.

    "Simon Harvey" <sh856531@microsofts_free_emal_service.com> wrote in message
    news:JMcVa.52718$9.net...
    Your right there chris, and that exactly what I'm looking at actually.

    A couple of questions:

    How can Dynamic HTML editing be done in a browser. I actually answered
    someone else's question on this very topic. He wanted the users to be able
    to create their own templates in a browser. The only things I have come up
    with is a technique that MS Sharepoint uses to allow the user to customise
    pages, put I havent the foggiest how they do that, because I would love to
    know.

    Also, what is the MS HTML edit control. are we in the same ball park with
    these two things.

    At the moment I am using Macromedia Contribute to do this sort of stuff. Its
    a god send for non tech content authors and is a great price. I'd like some
    other options as well though.

    Simon


    "Chris Barber" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > XSLT can be hidden but it does mean that you have to have in place some

    form
    > of content management accessible to all. I've seen it done in a web
    > environment (image upload, document upload etc.) and dynamic HTML editing
    > using the MS html edit control.
    > It should be possible to have a basic XML layout for a document that

    defines
    > what the document is (eg. ID, name, description, keywords etc.) and then
    > allow the specific document to be edited from a series of defined

    templates.
    > Storing it all in a database then allow the site content to be dynamically
    > created using the defined XSLT documents combined with the XML.
    >
    > Chris.
    >
    > "Simon Harvey" <sh856531@microsofts_free_emal_service.com> wrote in

    message
    > news:_h7Va.50438$9.net...
    > Thanks for that Chris,
    >
    > Here's the important thing - most small companies don't have a dedicated

    IT
    > staff able to make constant changes to the site at short notice. The usual
    > model is that there is a single individual that has a number of roles, one
    > of them being maintaining the website. That produces a bottleneck and
    > eventually comapnies begin to resent making new content, which is a shame,
    > because content is exactly what makes a website interesting.
    >
    > So, my point is, I'm going to be that person, UNLESS, there is someway to
    > make XSLT hidden from the content makers. I have to say that I wouldnt

    think
    > making XSLT docs is easier than say jsp or asp.net though. The difference

    is
    > though, that XSLT has a number of well known advantages. The problem is
    > using xslt in a way that doesnt scare non-techs
    >
    > Simon
    >
    >
    >
    Chris Barber, Jul 28, 2003
    #10
  11. Simon Harvey

    Neil Smith Guest

    On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 19:50:18 +0100, "Chris Barber"
    <> wrote:

    >OK - I'll have to dig in the archives but a friend of mine gave me a copy of
    >his site that does dynamic - to database - HTML editing in the browser using
    >an ActiveX control (dhtmled.ocx ?). Allows images to be uploaded and then
    >selected and inserted into the HTML page.


    Not necessarily - it allows images to be placed into the layout, but
    dhtmled on its own does not perform the file POST requests necesary to
    send the images with the HTML file.

    Also, the activeX is no longer needed on IE5 and above, you can run
    the same commands it suopports directly on a DIV or IFRAME area with
    the editable=true attribute.

    Cheers _ Neil.

    >
    >Chris.
    >
    >"Simon Harvey" <sh856531@microsofts_free_emal_service.com> wrote in message
    >news:JMcVa.52718$9.net...
    >Your right there chris, and that exactly what I'm looking at actually.
    >
    >A couple of questions:
    >
    >How can Dynamic HTML editing be done in a browser. I actually answered
    >someone else's question on this very topic. He wanted the users to be able
    >to create their own templates in a browser. The only things I have come up
    >with is a technique that MS Sharepoint uses to allow the user to customise
    >pages, put I havent the foggiest how they do that, because I would love to
    >know.
    >
    >Also, what is the MS HTML edit control. are we in the same ball park with
    >these two things.
    >
    >At the moment I am using Macromedia Contribute to do this sort of stuff. Its
    >a god send for non tech content authors and is a great price. I'd like some
    >other options as well though.
    >
    >Simon
    >
    >
    >"Chris Barber" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >> XSLT can be hidden but it does mean that you have to have in place some

    >form
    >> of content management accessible to all. I've seen it done in a web
    >> environment (image upload, document upload etc.) and dynamic HTML editing
    >> using the MS html edit control.
    >> It should be possible to have a basic XML layout for a document that

    >defines
    >> what the document is (eg. ID, name, description, keywords etc.) and then
    >> allow the specific document to be edited from a series of defined

    >templates.
    >> Storing it all in a database then allow the site content to be dynamically
    >> created using the defined XSLT documents combined with the XML.
    >>
    >> Chris.
    >>
    >> "Simon Harvey" <sh856531@microsofts_free_emal_service.com> wrote in

    >message
    >> news:_h7Va.50438$9.net...
    >> Thanks for that Chris,
    >>
    >> Here's the important thing - most small companies don't have a dedicated

    >IT
    >> staff able to make constant changes to the site at short notice. The usual
    >> model is that there is a single individual that has a number of roles, one
    >> of them being maintaining the website. That produces a bottleneck and
    >> eventually comapnies begin to resent making new content, which is a shame,
    >> because content is exactly what makes a website interesting.
    >>
    >> So, my point is, I'm going to be that person, UNLESS, there is someway to
    >> make XSLT hidden from the content makers. I have to say that I wouldnt

    >think
    >> making XSLT docs is easier than say jsp or asp.net though. The difference

    >is
    >> though, that XSLT has a number of well known advantages. The problem is
    >> using xslt in a way that doesnt scare non-techs
    >>
    >> Simon
    >>
    >>
    >>

    >
    >
    >


    ========================================================
    CaptionKit http://www.captionkit.com : Production tools
    for accessible subtitled internet media, transcripts
    and searchable video. Supports Real Player, Quicktime
    and Windows Media Player.

    VideoChat with friends online, get Freshly Toasted every
    day at http://www.fresh-toast.net : NetMeeting solutions
    for a connected world.
    Neil Smith, Jul 29, 2003
    #11
  12. Simon Harvey

    Simon Harvey Guest

    Hmmm, so dhtmled.ocx is actually a well known control. Well i must have a
    look at that then.
    Does anyone know of anything else like that?

    I would actually like to make my own activeX control but I dont know very
    much about the Internet Explorer Api that I'm supposing you would have to
    program in. That and the fact that I want to do it in C# but that isnt
    supported in Vs2002 apparently

    Simon

    "Neil Smith" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 19:50:18 +0100, "Chris Barber"
    > <> wrote:
    >
    > >OK - I'll have to dig in the archives but a friend of mine gave me a copy

    of
    > >his site that does dynamic - to database - HTML editing in the browser

    using
    > >an ActiveX control (dhtmled.ocx ?). Allows images to be uploaded and then
    > >selected and inserted into the HTML page.

    >
    > Not necessarily - it allows images to be placed into the layout, but
    > dhtmled on its own does not perform the file POST requests necesary to
    > send the images with the HTML file.
    >
    > Also, the activeX is no longer needed on IE5 and above, you can run
    > the same commands it suopports directly on a DIV or IFRAME area with
    > the editable=true attribute.
    >
    > Cheers _ Neil.
    >
    > >
    > >Chris.
    > >
    > >"Simon Harvey" <sh856531@microsofts_free_emal_service.com> wrote in

    message
    > >news:JMcVa.52718$9.net...
    > >Your right there chris, and that exactly what I'm looking at actually.
    > >
    > >A couple of questions:
    > >
    > >How can Dynamic HTML editing be done in a browser. I actually answered
    > >someone else's question on this very topic. He wanted the users to be

    able
    > >to create their own templates in a browser. The only things I have come

    up
    > >with is a technique that MS Sharepoint uses to allow the user to

    customise
    > >pages, put I havent the foggiest how they do that, because I would love

    to
    > >know.
    > >
    > >Also, what is the MS HTML edit control. are we in the same ball park with
    > >these two things.
    > >
    > >At the moment I am using Macromedia Contribute to do this sort of stuff.

    Its
    > >a god send for non tech content authors and is a great price. I'd like

    some
    > >other options as well though.
    > >
    > >Simon
    > >
    > >
    > >"Chris Barber" <> wrote in message
    > >news:...
    > >> XSLT can be hidden but it does mean that you have to have in place some

    > >form
    > >> of content management accessible to all. I've seen it done in a web
    > >> environment (image upload, document upload etc.) and dynamic HTML

    editing
    > >> using the MS html edit control.
    > >> It should be possible to have a basic XML layout for a document that

    > >defines
    > >> what the document is (eg. ID, name, description, keywords etc.) and

    then
    > >> allow the specific document to be edited from a series of defined

    > >templates.
    > >> Storing it all in a database then allow the site content to be

    dynamically
    > >> created using the defined XSLT documents combined with the XML.
    > >>
    > >> Chris.
    > >>
    > >> "Simon Harvey" <sh856531@microsofts_free_emal_service.com> wrote in

    > >message
    > >> news:_h7Va.50438$9.net...
    > >> Thanks for that Chris,
    > >>
    > >> Here's the important thing - most small companies don't have a

    dedicated
    > >IT
    > >> staff able to make constant changes to the site at short notice. The

    usual
    > >> model is that there is a single individual that has a number of roles,

    one
    > >> of them being maintaining the website. That produces a bottleneck and
    > >> eventually comapnies begin to resent making new content, which is a

    shame,
    > >> because content is exactly what makes a website interesting.
    > >>
    > >> So, my point is, I'm going to be that person, UNLESS, there is someway

    to
    > >> make XSLT hidden from the content makers. I have to say that I wouldnt

    > >think
    > >> making XSLT docs is easier than say jsp or asp.net though. The

    difference
    > >is
    > >> though, that XSLT has a number of well known advantages. The problem is
    > >> using xslt in a way that doesnt scare non-techs
    > >>
    > >> Simon
    > >>
    > >>
    > >>

    > >
    > >
    > >

    >
    > ========================================================
    > CaptionKit http://www.captionkit.com : Production tools
    > for accessible subtitled internet media, transcripts
    > and searchable video. Supports Real Player, Quicktime
    > and Windows Media Player.
    >
    > VideoChat with friends online, get Freshly Toasted every
    > day at http://www.fresh-toast.net : NetMeeting solutions
    > for a connected world.
    Simon Harvey, Jul 29, 2003
    #12
  13. Simon Harvey

    Chris Barber Guest

    I agree (it's difficult to get the context of a post sometimes and I
    definitely get it wrong every now and then).

    I'd never seen the @lang before - I'm definitely going to have a good look -
    I have some stuff that I may decide to use it with.

    BTW: Anything interesting developments for Xselerator on the horizon? Some
    more fonts (such as Verdana) for the IDE would be handy - even on a
    1600x1200 screen res I'm running out of screen space with the standard
    fonts.
    I'm definitely getting into this XSLT stuff in a big way and Xselerator has
    helped enormously.

    Cheers,

    Chris.


    "Marrow" <> wrote in message
    news:7NMVa.2678$...
    Hi Chris,

    Ah, I wasn't really commenting on which approach to use - I thought you'd
    covered that thoroughly. I was just commenting that, if using an approach
    that invloved attributes that defined language content of a specific
    node/nodes, it would be better to use @xml:lang.

    As to whether to use a multiple document approach (with each translation in
    a seperate document) or just a single document - it depends on the system.
    But in this situation (say, for manuals) then yes, I would imagine a
    multiple document approach would involve less hassles. Although there might
    still be a place for an additional single XML document for semi static
    stuff - for example, translations of words like 'index', 'page', 'chapter'
    etc.

    Cheers
    Marrow

    "Chris Barber" <> wrote in message
    news:uaIdz#...
    > Thanks Marrow.
    >
    > I've looked at a few references for this but I'm not sure that it would be
    > fully appropriate for an entire document in multiple languages?
    >
    > A possible problematic example would be a manual in French, Italian,

    English
    > and German. If the language sections were contained within the same XML
    > source then the source would conceivably be up to 4x larger than a single
    > language source.
    > This could present issues with speed and maintainability?
    > It's also feasible that a particular document might want to use a

    different
    > layout to the other documents (Chinese springs to mind). I can also see
    > issues where different authors are maintaining the individual languages -
    > source control for a single document could become very problematic.
    > Of course there are a multitude of issues with a multi-document system.
    >
    > I wasn't making a proposal as such, just trying to put up some scenarios

    as
    > starting points.
    >
    > Cheers,
    >
    > Chris.
    Chris Barber, Jul 30, 2003
    #13
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