AlphaImage and css backgrounds

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Nik Coughin, Dec 13, 2004.

  1. Nik Coughin

    Nik Coughin Guest

    Damn Microsoft. Damn them to hell with IE's complete lack of support for
    png alpha transparency without the use of a crappy hack, a crappy hack that
    also doesn't work on repeating CSS backgrounds.

    Please have a look at his with both IE and a real browser, if you have the
    time:

    http://www.nrkn.com/masterpiece/

    Any ideas to make it look better in IE?

    --
    "Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million
    typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare!" - Blair Houghton
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    http://www.nrkn.com/
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    Nik Coughin, Dec 13, 2004
    #1
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  2. Nik Coughin wrote:

    > Damn Microsoft. Damn them to hell with IE's complete lack of support for
    > png alpha transparency without the use of a crappy hack, a crappy hack
    > that also doesn't work on repeating CSS backgrounds.
    >
    > Please have a look at his with both IE and a real browser, if you have the
    > time:
    >
    > http://www.nrkn.com/masterpiece/
    >
    > Any ideas to make it look better in IE?


    Only hours ago I posted a comment on Eric Meyer's Web site about the
    solution I use to PNG in IE...

    http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/09/s5-11b2/#comment-2872

    Roy
    Roy Schestowitz, Dec 13, 2004
    #2
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  3. Nik Coughin

    Henry Guest

    Nik Coughin wrote:
    > Damn Microsoft. Damn them to hell with IE's complete lack of support for
    > png alpha transparency without the use of a crappy hack, a crappy hack that
    > also doesn't work on repeating CSS backgrounds.
    >
    > Please have a look at his with both IE and a real browser, if you have the
    > time:
    >
    > http://www.nrkn.com/masterpiece/
    >
    > Any ideas to make it look better in IE?



    Great job Nik!

    Unfortunately IE is here to stay as a dominant browser for many years!

    I had a discussion with one of my friends about a stupidity of Internet
    users.

    I have installed FireFox on hundreds machines doing computer services.
    What I have found, that maybe 2% are using it! I have installed it
    Quicktime, Flash and Java, nothing to do, just browse.

    NAH! They are to stupid to do that!

    Often, when I ask "What browser you're using", I hear the question:
    "What's the hell is that?"

    "That's the blue E icon on the desktop!"

    "Yeah = thingy for the Internet - I use it!"

    Suppose that FF is heaps better, so what?

    It will take MANY years to take over. IE took over Netscape because was
    given as 'part' of OS.

    As long as M$ will be number one as OS and Office producer, IE will
    stay. Most likely for many years.

    So... we have to design pages mainly for IE and the rest... just to
    check it.

    The main goal is a bloody IE.

    Unfortunately...
    Henry, Dec 13, 2004
    #3
  4. Henry wrote:

    > So... we have to design pages mainly for IE and the rest... just to
    > check it.
    >
    > The main goal is a bloody IE.
    >
    > Unfortunately...


    That's a wonderful way to express the situation. Cheer up Henry. If everyone
    uses a cr*p browser, it puts you one step ahead. No pop-ups, no single tab,
    mouse gestures, etc.

    Roy

    --
    Roy Schestowitz
    http://schestowitz.com
    Roy Schestowitz, Dec 13, 2004
    #4
  5. Nik Coughin

    Toby Inkster Guest

    Nik Coughin wrote:

    > http://www.nrkn.com/masterpiece/


    It looks very nice.

    IE's problems with variable opacity are irritating to say the least. On my
    latest project (an Intranet at work) I can happily ignore the issue, as the
    percentage using IE is quite low and dropping.

    I am still looking for a one line drop-in that I can use to fix images in
    IE.

    --
    Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
    Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact
    Toby Inkster, Dec 13, 2004
    #5
  6. In article <YXavd.25319$>, "Nik Coughin"
    <nrkn!no-spam!@woosh.co.nz> wrote:

    > Damn Microsoft. Damn them to hell with IE's complete lack of support for
    > png alpha transparency without the use of a crappy hack, a crappy hack that
    > also doesn't work on repeating CSS backgrounds.
    >
    > Please have a look at his with both IE and a real browser, if you have the
    > time:
    >
    > http://www.nrkn.com/masterpiece/


    My, you do good cutting edge work. It was completely readable in MacIE 5.1
    and the background spilled into artifacts of the intended design. It
    looked the same except with your original intention in MacMozilla 1.2.1. I
    wasn't too keen on your hover effect. Something more subtle than yellow.
    Perhaps a far lighter yellow or yellow-cream. Subtle, subtle, subtle.
    Maybe no border on the links or just the text changing color.
    Of course, subtle will probably limit accessibility.

    leo

    --
    <http://web0.greatbasin.net/~leo/>
    Leonard Blaisdell, Dec 14, 2004
    #6
  7. Nik Coughin

    Nik Coughin Guest

    Roy Schestowitz wrote:
    > Nik Coughin wrote:
    >
    >> Damn Microsoft. Damn them to hell with IE's complete lack of
    >> support for png alpha transparency without the use of a crappy hack,
    >> a crappy hack that also doesn't work on repeating CSS backgrounds.
    >>
    >> Please have a look at his with both IE and a real browser, if you
    >> have the time:
    >>
    >> http://www.nrkn.com/masterpiece/
    >>
    >> Any ideas to make it look better in IE?

    >
    > Only hours ago I posted a comment on Eric Meyer's Web site about the
    > solution I use to PNG in IE...
    >
    > http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/09/s5-11b2/#comment-2872
    >
    > Roy


    Hi Roy,

    I had a play with using binary transparency and dithering, but it looked
    awful. It's not like IE can't do alpha, I use it for foreground images all
    the time, it's just so damn inflexible that I can't use it for background
    images with repeats or positioning. I'm adding an inconspicuous footer to
    all of my pages now that tells IE users that they should get a real browser.
    Nik Coughin, Dec 15, 2004
    #7
  8. Nik Coughin

    Nik Coughin Guest

    Henry wrote:
    > Nik Coughin wrote:
    >> Damn Microsoft. Damn them to hell with IE's complete lack of
    >> support for png alpha transparency without the use of a crappy hack,
    >> a crappy hack that also doesn't work on repeating CSS backgrounds.
    >>
    >> Please have a look at his with both IE and a real browser, if you
    >> have the time:
    >>
    >> http://www.nrkn.com/masterpiece/
    >>
    >> Any ideas to make it look better in IE?

    >
    >
    > Great job Nik!
    >
    > Unfortunately IE is here to stay as a dominant browser for many years!


    That doesn't mean that things will stay like this though. All the alternate
    browsers have to do is gain enough market share to put the shits up
    Microsoft enough that they release a new version of IE.
    Nik Coughin, Dec 15, 2004
    #8
  9. Nik Coughin

    Nik Coughin Guest

    Toby Inkster wrote:
    > Nik Coughin wrote:
    >
    >> http://www.nrkn.com/masterpiece/

    >
    > It looks very nice.
    >
    > IE's problems with variable opacity are irritating to say the least.
    > On my latest project (an Intranet at work) I can happily ignore the
    > issue, as the percentage using IE is quite low and dropping.
    >
    > I am still looking for a one line drop-in that I can use to fix
    > images in IE.


    I use a slightly modified version of Justin's php script,
    http://www.koivi.com/ie-png-transparency/. Not quite one line drop-in, but
    close.

    I am still looking for a very long pointy stick with which I can poke
    IE-users worldwide in the eye without getting out of my seat.
    Nik Coughin, Dec 15, 2004
    #9
  10. Nik Coughin

    Nik Coughin Guest

    Leonard Blaisdell wrote:
    > In article <YXavd.25319$>, "Nik Coughin"
    > <nrkn!no-spam!@woosh.co.nz> wrote:
    >
    >>
    >> http://www.nrkn.com/masterpiece/

    >
    > My, you do good cutting edge work. It was completely readable in
    > MacIE 5.1 and the background spilled into artifacts of the intended
    > design. It looked the same except with your original intention in
    > MacMozilla 1.2.1.


    I will head over to Browsercam so that I can see what you mean. Thanks.
    Nik Coughin, Dec 15, 2004
    #10
  11. Nik Coughin

    rf Guest

    Nik Coughin wrote:

    > I'm adding an inconspicuous footer to
    > all of my pages now that tells IE users that they should get a real

    browser.

    Arrogant. Especially when you sniff the browser incorrectly. This is as bad
    as those "best viewed with IE4" messages that were used last century.

    Did it occur to you that some people *must* use IE and have no choice? Most
    corporations that use Microsoft software insist that every computer is built
    from a base disk image, by the IT department. Running foreign software (like
    other browsers) is often a dismissable offence.

    Walk into a library or an internet cafe and try to install a different
    browser. You won't even get to run the install program because you do not
    see the desktop, you see what they want you to see.

    --
    Cheers
    Richard.
    rf, Dec 15, 2004
    #11
  12. Nik Coughin

    Dylan Parry Guest

    rf wrote:

    > Arrogant. Especially when you sniff the browser incorrectly. This is as bad
    > as those "best viewed with IE4" messages that were used last century.


    I agree that it is arrogant to tell the user to upgrade, but it doesn't
    require any browser sniffing as such. You could use conditional
    comments, which only IE supports, and so only IE would show the message
    regardless.

    --
    Dylan Parry
    http://webpageworkshop.co.uk -- FREE Web tutorials and references
    Dylan Parry, Dec 15, 2004
    #12
  13. Nik Coughin

    Nik Coughin Guest

    rf wrote:
    > Nik Coughin wrote:
    >
    >> I'm adding an inconspicuous footer to
    >> all of my pages now that tells IE users that they should get a real
    >> browser.

    >
    > Arrogant.


    Perhaps so! Especially if I had put it in those exact words, but it's
    inconspicuous, it's at the bottom of the page, and all it says is something
    along the lines of "you are viewing a visually inferior version of this page
    because you are using IE, I recommend that you download a modern browser
    like Opera or Firefox".
    Nik Coughin, Dec 15, 2004
    #13
  14. In article <S5Mvd.72998$>,
    rf@.invalid says...
    > Did it occur to you that some people *must* use IE and have no choice? Most
    > corporations that use Microsoft software insist that every computer is built
    > from a base disk image, by the IT department. Running foreign software (like
    > other browsers) is often a dismissable offence.


    We needed special permission at when consulting at Siemens to add
    firefox to our (supplied) development machines.

    --
    -=*Tn*=-
    Travis Newbury, Dec 15, 2004
    #14
  15. In article <WeMvd.27782$>, nrkn!no-spam!
    @woosh.co.nz says...
    > Perhaps so! Especially if I had put it in those exact words, but it's
    > inconspicuous, it's at the bottom of the page, and all it says is something
    > along the lines of "you are viewing a visually inferior version of this page
    > because you are using IE, I recommend that you download a modern browser
    > like Opera or Firefox".


    I would probably leave as you are insulting my choice of browsers. (Not
    really as I use firefox, but that is what comes across with your
    statement.)
    --
    -=*Tn*=-
    Travis Newbury, Dec 15, 2004
    #15
  16. Nik Coughin wrote:
    > rf wrote:
    >
    >>Nik Coughin wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>I'm adding an inconspicuous footer to
    >>>all of my pages now that tells IE users that they should get a real
    >>>browser.

    >>
    >>Arrogant.

    >
    >
    > Perhaps so! Especially if I had put it in those exact words, but it's
    > inconspicuous, it's at the bottom of the page, and all it says is something
    > along the lines of "you are viewing a visually inferior version of this page
    > because you are using IE, I recommend that you download a modern browser
    > like Opera or Firefox".


    That could still be seen as a bit offensive, though. I would use
    something more like, "You appear to be using a Web browser called
    Internet Explorer. You should have no problems using this site;
    unfortunately, however, we are unable to give it the most polished
    visual appearance in IE. If possible, please consider using a different
    Web browser such as Opera or Firefox."
    Leif K-Brooks, Dec 15, 2004
    #16
  17. Nik Coughin

    Nik Coughin Guest

    Leif K-Brooks wrote:
    > Nik Coughin wrote:
    >> rf wrote:
    >>
    >>> Nik Coughin wrote:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>> I'm adding an inconspicuous footer to
    >>>> all of my pages now that tells IE users that they should get a real
    >>>> browser.
    >>>
    >>> Arrogant.

    >>
    >>
    >> Perhaps so! Especially if I had put it in those exact words, but
    >> it's inconspicuous, it's at the bottom of the page, and all it says
    >> is something along the lines of "you are viewing a visually inferior
    >> version of this page because you are using IE, I recommend that you
    >> download a modern browser like Opera or Firefox".

    >
    > That could still be seen as a bit offensive, though. I would use
    > something more like, "You appear to be using a Web browser called
    > Internet Explorer. You should have no problems using this site;
    > unfortunately, however, we are unable to give it the most polished
    > visual appearance in IE. If possible, please consider using a
    > different Web browser such as Opera or Firefox."


    At the moment I am using:
    You are looking at a graphically inferior version of this page because you
    are using Microsoft Internet Explorer. Microsoft has not updated Internet
    Explorer since 2001. nrkn recommends that you download a modern browser such
    as Firefox or Opera, both of which are free.

    I prefer your version however.
    Nik Coughin, Dec 15, 2004
    #17
  18. Nik Coughin

    Dylan Parry Guest

    Leif K-Brooks wrote:

    > If possible, please consider using a different
    > Web browser such as Opera or Firefox."


    One short of "I... I... I say chaps, would you mind awfully if I asked
    you to possibly, if it isn't too much trouble, to consider using another
    browser? It's just Captain Mainwaring has asked me to use this
    frightfully good image for the background, and it would be such a shame
    if you were to miss it. Sorry to be a nuissance." :)

    --
    Dylan Parry
    http://webpageworkshop.co.uk -- FREE Web tutorials and references
    Dylan Parry, Dec 15, 2004
    #18
  19. Nik Coughin

    rf Guest

    Nik Coughin wrote:

    > At the moment I am using:
    > You are looking at a graphically inferior version of this page because you
    > are using Microsoft Internet Explorer. Microsoft has not updated Internet
    > Explorer since 2001. nrkn recommends that you download a modern browser

    such
    > as Firefox or Opera, both of which are free.
    >
    > I prefer your version however.


    Still disagree :)

    If my Mother In Law (who *is* sort of computer literate, enough to assist in
    the Computing for Seniors classes) were to see a message like that she would
    ring me up and ask what is wrong with her computer. After all, no other web
    site she has visited has told her that!

    <aside>
    Said MIL once rang up and told me my scanner was broken. Why? She didn't
    recieve the picture I had scanned and sent to her. Why? She hadn't pressed
    send/recieve on her email client :)
    </aside>

    She would *not* download firefox or opera. I have told her in no uncertain
    terms to *never* install anything from the internet, just after the fifth
    time I re-installed her OS due to virus infection. If she wants it then *I*
    will download and disinfect it for her.

    In any case where she lives firefox is most definately not free. She pays
    for internet connection by the minute on a 28K baud connection and firefox
    is not a small download. It'd probably cost her the price of quite a few
    rum&cokes :)

    --
    Cheers
    Richard.
    rf, Dec 15, 2004
    #19
  20. Nik Coughin

    Neal Guest

    Dylan Parry:

    > "I... I... I say chaps, would you mind awfully if I asked you to
    > possibly, if it isn't too much trouble, to consider using another
    > browser? It's just Captain Mainwaring has asked me to use this
    > frightfully good image for the background, and it would be such a shame
    > if you were to miss it. Sorry to be a nuissance." :)


    "This site looks good in your browser. Unless it doesn't. In which case,
    sorry."
    Neal, Dec 15, 2004
    #20
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