Alternative for framed site

[the idiot]

Ditching the table would probably solve it, but you should dump the
whole idea, scrolling divs are a usability nightmare.

you cant say that - ive only just started using scrolling divs instead of
iframes ;-] ... what do you mean about them being a usability nightmare?

It requires users to drag the scrollbar with their mouse, the mouse
wheel won't work, keyboard navigation won't work, it falsely makes it
look like the amount of information on the page is less that what it is,
but only in the visual css enabled domain.

--

erm ive just re-looked at one of mine
http://www.207g.karoo.net/moller1/html/m14a.html
and the mousewheel works for scrolling in ff (0.9) opera (7.6) and ie (6)
though i think i had to click on the div to make it work in opera..

 

[Nico Schuyt]

"Nico Schuyt" wrote

what about this one http://www.207g.karoo.net/moller1/html/m14.html

Same problem

 

[Spartanicus]

eek but
whats wrong with it 'falsley making it look like the amount of info on the
page is less than what it is' i dont understand

In-document scrolling viewports (iframes, divs) are typically used to
restrict the amount of information shown, for scrolling divs this only
works in the visual domain if css is enabled.

 

[the idiot]

Same problem
--

oh dear... oh dear oh dear....
so how come they work in mine and not yours?

 

[the idiot]

In-document scrolling viewports (iframes, divs) are typically used to
restrict the amount of information shown, for scrolling divs this only
works in the visual domain if css is enabled.

but people arent stupid they will see a scrolly bar and use it without
thinking theyve been tricked.... and those who dont have css enabled will
see all the words..... you have me confused but that is most likely my
simpleness. ;-0

 

[Spartanicus]

but people arent stupid they will see a scrolly bar and use it without
thinking theyve been tricked....

Many won't because it doesn't behave as expected, hence what's hidden
remains hidden.

and those who dont have css enabled will
see all the words.....

Thereby defeating the original purpose, and there are other domains than
the visual one.

 

[the idiot]

Many won't because it doesn't behave as expected, hence what's hidden
remains hidden.


Thereby defeating the original purpose, and there are other domains than
the visual one.

--

what was the original purpose (design layout maybe)? you appear to be
setting yourself pointless rules.

 

[Spartanicus]

erm ive just re-looked at one of mine
http://www.207g.karoo.net/moller1/html/m14a.html
and the mousewheel works for scrolling in ff (0.9) opera (7.6) and ie (6)
though i think i had to click on the div to make it work in opera..

Without optional mouse utility software installed proper windows will
continue to scroll, "scrolling divs" typically break.

 

[the idiot]

Without optional mouse utility software installed proper windows will
continue to scroll, "scrolling divs" typically break.

--

and so they will have to use their mouse to scroll/drag it down... crikey.
the temerity.

 

[Spartanicus]

what was the original purpose (design layout maybe)?

If you feel the need to hide some of the content on a page then the
solution is to remove that content, not deploy broken methods to try and
mask that.

 

[Nico Schuyt]

"Nico Schuyt"

oh dear... oh dear oh dear....
so how come they work in mine and not yours?

Maybe there's a misunderstanding. Because I know of problems with scrollable
div's in Mozilla, I use the scroll wheel on the mouse. You probably pull
with with the left mouse button. That explains you have no problems with
focus and scrolling.
If the design of the page allows it, the technique on
http://devnull.tagsoup.com/fixed/horizontal.html might be a better solution.
(At first sight it looks like a scrollable div) For a more complex example
look at Barbara's
http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/voorbeelden/voorbeeld_fixeren-kop.html

 

[the idiot]

If you feel the need to hide some of the content on a page then the
solution is to remove that content, not deploy broken methods to try and
mask that.

--

its nothing to do with hiding it is to do with design and layout. surely by
your logic any page that requires a scrollbar is wrong.

 

[the idiot]

Maybe there's a misunderstanding. Because I know of problems with scrollable
div's in Mozilla, I use the scroll wheel on the mouse. You probably pull
with with the left mouse button. That explains you have no problems with
focus and scrolling.
If the design of the page allows it, the technique on
http://devnull.tagsoup.com/fixed/horizontal.html might be a better solution.
(At first sight it looks like a scrollable div) For a more complex example
look at Barbara's
http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/voorbeelden/voorbeeld_fixeren-kop.html

cheers will have a good look.. though on my versions of ff and opera i can
use the mousewheel to scroll. i think with opera i first had to actually
left click the page though

 

[Spartanicus]

its nothing to do with hiding it is to do with design and layout. surely by
your logic any page that requires a scrollbar is wrong.

A scroll bar on the main viewport doesn't have the
usability/accessibility issues that viewports within a viewport have.

Btw, sig delimiters should be snipped from follow ups.

 

[the idiot]

A scroll bar on the main viewport doesn't have the
usability/accessibility issues that viewports within a viewport have.

Btw, sig delimiters should be snipped from follow ups.

--

okedokee... hmm anyways. stuff to think about i think. mind you thats part
of the fun of webdesign.

 

[Nico Schuyt]

I can't be bothered to look up the why, but I can guarantee you that
IE get's it wrong, and FF & Opera get it right.

Ditching the table would probably solve it, but you should dump the
whole idea, scrolling divs are a usability nightmare.

In this particular case (a dictated layout), it's a choice between frames,
iframe or scrollable divs.
I wonder if the disadvantages of scrollable divs are greater than those of
frames or iframes.

 

[Spartanicus]

In this particular case (a dictated layout), it's a choice between frames,
iframe or scrollable divs.
I wonder if the disadvantages of scrollable divs are greater than those of
frames or iframes.

It's a choice between a rock and a hard place. Any viewport within a
viewport creates problems, that said, provided that the bookmarking, SE
indexing and noframes problem are addressed, the usability/accessibility
of a framed site is actually pretty decent. Keyboard navigation support
is decent, as is mouse wheel scrolling.

However http://www.vleeskens.nl/ is a framed site where you appear to
have made a deliberate effort to make sure it breaks.

 

[Nico Schuyt]

"Nico Schuyt" wrote:

It's a choice between a rock and a hard place. Any viewport within a
viewport creates problems, that said, provided that the bookmarking,
SE indexing and noframes problem are addressed, the
usability/accessibility of a framed site is actually pretty decent.
Keyboard navigation support is decent, as is mouse wheel scrolling.

However http://www.vleeskens.nl/ is a framed site where you appear to
have made a deliberate effort to make sure it breaks.

I know it's crap I had to make a quick and dirty solution after waisting
far too much time experimenting with divs. (that's why the site is not in my
portfolio But even now it seems impossible to translate the design to
decent HTML/CSS.
Bookmarking of a framed site is difficult (IE can; FF returns to the start
page, no matter what you bookmark). Referring to a specific page is
impossible.
An iframe solution seems to be the best.

 

[Lauri Raittila]

Spartanicus wrote:

I know it's crap > I had to make a quick and dirty solution

No, you didn't have to.

But even now it seems impossible to translate the design to
decent HTML/CSS.

Well, that is because the design is broken, no matter what way you do it.
Forgot the stupid idea about scrolling content area, and let the site
strech down, and it will be much better. You are using only 25% of my
viewport to display content, which is big mistake. Especially as some of
your content will be impossible to look at because of that. For example,
your map on won't fit the box in my browser. You wouldn't need popup to
display the route if you had done things sencible way.

 

[Nico Schuyt]

No, you didn't have to.

Well, that is because the design is broken, no matter what way you do
it. Forgot the stupid idea about scrolling content area, and let the
site strech down, and it will be much better. You are using only 25%
of my viewport to display content, which is big mistake. Especially
as some of your content will be impossible to look at because of
that. For example, your map on won't fit the box in my browser. You
wouldn't need popup to display the route if you had done things
sencible way.

In practice it's not always possible to solve things the right way. In this
particular case the design was made by someone who hadn't the slightest idea
about accessability and usability. It had taken months to create the design.
When I came in the customer was not prepared to listen to my arguments. If
you had a look at the sites in my portfolio you'd know this is not the my
usual way of creating websites.
In such case you can do two things:
a. Refuse to build the site
b. Try to find a solution with the minimum of disadvantages.
At that time I simply hadn't the skill and the time to do the latter. Even
now it seems to be not easy, even for the more experienced in this ng