Alternative to frames!

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Hans, Dec 21, 2004.

  1. Hans

    Hans Guest

    In an in-house ASP site (designed to support IE5.5+ and NN7+) we are using
    frames today and I know there are several issues by using frames but I
    cannot see a better alternative.

    In one frame I have a treeview. This treeview is not static (if the user
    clicks on a node it will expand/collapse). It is different for every user.
    It is pretty heavy to load. The main frame is loaded every time the user
    searches for data etc (which occur often) but the treeview frame is only
    reloaded when the user is actually working (clicking) on the treeview.

    If I remove the frames I would have to run the pretty heavy code for
    building up the non-static treeview for every page (which includes
    instantiating COM+ component and database access etc) and this will be much
    slower than it is today (at least when I tested). The users want to see the
    treeview all the time because they are familiar with that in the windows
    client (otherwise a link to a page that shows the treeview could be an
    alternative).

    This is an in-house site and issues with frames like bookmarking, indexing
    etc is not an issue in this case. I don't actually have any problems with
    the frames today and the small tests I have done with server side includes
    did not perform well.

    Is this just an unusual case where frames are the best choice or what
    alternatives do I have? I prompted for removing the treeview (and also a
    calendar frame) which are used rarely and add links that would open the page
    with the treeview/calendar but they insisted that they should be visible all
    the time.

    Regards
    /Hans
     
    Hans, Dec 21, 2004
    #1
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  2. Hans

    rf Guest

    Hans wrote:

    > In an in-house ASP site (designed to support IE5.5+ and NN7+) we are using
    > frames today and I know there are several issues by using frames but I
    > cannot see a better alternative.


    It is inhouse. It works. Your viewers are happy with it. The alternatives
    would not work nearly as fast. Why do you want to change it?

    All up it seems to me like a *good* example of where frames are useful.

    --
    Cheers
    Richard.
     
    rf, Dec 21, 2004
    #2
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  3. Hans

    Hans Guest

    Hi rf!

    Thanks for you answer (this newsgroup is amazing, 10 minutes to get the
    first answer!!).

    I'm more of a programmer using Visual Studio and not a html guru but I have
    now developed a web interface and I have read a lot on this newsgroup about
    how evil frames are and that they are useless. In this case however I was
    not able to find a better solution (which could be lack of skills when it
    comes to "internet development" therefore my question).

    As you said I don't have any big problems today and the end users don't care
    if I use frames or not. They just want a system that works. I was just
    curious if I was to start over from scratch today would I still stick to
    frames?

    Merry Christmas to you all

    Regards
    /Hans

    P.s rf I really appreciate your help and I see that you are answering a lot
    of questions in this newsgroup. Do you do this on your spare time or do you
    get paid by anyone to do this? Either way keep up the spirit D.s
     
    Hans, Dec 21, 2004
    #3
  4. Hans

    Duende Guest

    While sitting in a puddle rf scribbled in the mud:

    > Hans wrote:
    >
    >> In an in-house ASP site (designed to support IE5.5+ and NN7+) we are using
    >> frames today and I know there are several issues by using frames but I
    >> cannot see a better alternative.

    >
    > It is inhouse. It works. Your viewers are happy with it. The alternatives
    > would not work nearly as fast. Why do you want to change it?
    >
    > All up it seems to me like a *good* example of where frames are useful.
    >


    <grin> Gota love those frames. </grin>

    --
    Mr. D?
    Never trust a cat to do a dog's job.
     
    Duende, Dec 21, 2004
    #4
  5. Hans

    Duende Guest

    While sitting in a puddle Hans scribbled in the mud:

    > P.s rf I really appreciate your help and I see that you are answering a lot
    > of questions in this newsgroup. Do you do this on your spare time or do you
    > get paid by anyone to do this? Either way keep up the spirit D.s


    He pays us for the privilege of just being here. ;)

    --
    Mr. D?
    Never trust a cat to do a dog's job.
     
    Duende, Dec 21, 2004
    #5
  6. Hans

    rf Guest

    Hans wrote:

    > Hi rf!
    >
    > Thanks for you answer (this newsgroup is amazing, 10 minutes to get the
    > first answer!!).


    All part of the service :)

    > I'm more of a programmer using Visual Studio and not a html guru but I

    have
    > now developed a web interface and I have read a lot on this newsgroup

    about
    > how evil frames are and that they are useless. In this case however I was
    > not able to find a better solution (which could be lack of skills when it
    > comes to "internet development" therefore my question).


    A lot of the stuff I do is similar, turnkey stuff run from a program rather
    than a browser. You can do what ever you want in this scenario.

    For a controlled intranet application frames are sometimes a viable tool. I
    even write Microsoft specific stuff that no other browser would understand,
    because I am feeding it to an instance of the IE browser control and not
    showing it to anybody with a browser to hand.

    That said, frames are very definately out for the web.

    > As you said I don't have any big problems today and the end users don't

    care
    > if I use frames or not. They just want a system that works. I was just
    > curious if I was to start over from scratch today would I still stick to
    > frames?


    It's your internal application. Do what you want.

    > Merry Christmas to you all


    Hmmm. Bah Humbug :)

    > P.s rf I really appreciate your help and I see that you are answering a

    lot
    > of questions in this newsgroup.


    We fight over the opportunities.

    > Do you do this on your spare time or do you
    > get paid by anyone to do this?


    ROFL...

    --
    Cheers
    Richard.
     
    rf, Dec 21, 2004
    #6
  7. On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 08:44:14 +0100, Hans <> wrote:

    > Hi rf!
    >
    > Thanks for you answer (this newsgroup is amazing, 10 minutes to get the
    > first answer!!).
    >


    This is a rather good group. I'm sure that everyone here is more than pleased
    to help. But please conform to some of the established ways to communicate in
    here.

    One of the appreciated things is, that you quote the text you respond to. Then
    write your respons below the quoted bit.
    Read some of the posts in here and you will see what I mean.

    --
    ,------------- PretLetters: 'woest wyf', met vele interesses: --------------.
    | weblog | <http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/_private/weblog.html> |
    | webontwerp | <http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/webontwerp.html> |
    | zweefvliegen | <http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/vliegen.html> |
    `---------------------------------------------------------------------------'
     
    Barbara de Zoete, Dec 21, 2004
    #7
  8. Hans

    jake Guest

    In message <Xns95C5F19E8301usenetwipkipbiz@130.133.1.4>, Duende
    <> writes
    >While sitting in a puddle rf scribbled in the mud:
    >
    >> Hans wrote:
    >>
    >>> In an in-house ASP site (designed to support IE5.5+ and NN7+) we are using
    >>> frames today and I know there are several issues by using frames but I
    >>> cannot see a better alternative.

    >>
    >> It is inhouse. It works. Your viewers are happy with it. The alternatives
    >> would not work nearly as fast. Why do you want to change it?
    >>
    >> All up it seems to me like a *good* example of where frames are useful.
    >>

    >
    ><grin> Gota love those frames. </grin>
    >

    Frames are your friends ;-)

    --
    Jake
     
    jake, Dec 21, 2004
    #8
  9. Hans

    SpaceGirl Guest

    jake wrote:
    > In message <Xns95C5F19E8301usenetwipkipbiz@130.133.1.4>, Duende
    > <> writes
    >
    >> While sitting in a puddle rf scribbled in the mud:
    >>
    >>> Hans wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> In an in-house ASP site (designed to support IE5.5+ and NN7+) we are
    >>>> using
    >>>> frames today and I know there are several issues by using frames but I
    >>>> cannot see a better alternative.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> It is inhouse. It works. Your viewers are happy with it. The
    >>> alternatives
    >>> would not work nearly as fast. Why do you want to change it?
    >>>
    >>> All up it seems to me like a *good* example of where frames are useful.
    >>>

    >>
    >> <grin> Gota love those frames. </grin>
    >>

    > Frames are your friends ;-)
    >


    Best invention ever, after CSS-less 100% table fixed-width layouts.

    --


    x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

    # lead designer @ http://www.dhnewmedia.com #
    # remove NO SPAM to email, or use form on website #
     
    SpaceGirl, Dec 21, 2004
    #9
  10. rf wrote:
    > All up it seems to me like a *good* example of where frames are

    useful.

    Heart stopping....

    clutching chest....

    --
    -=Tn=-
     
    Travis Newbury, Dec 21, 2004
    #10
  11. Hans wrote:
    > Thanks for you answer (this newsgroup is amazing, 10 minutes to get

    the
    > first answer!!).


    That's because we have no lives...

    > I'm more of a programmer using Visual Studio and not a html guru but

    I have
    > now developed a web interface and I have read a lot on this newsgroup

    about
    > how evil frames are and that they are useless. In this case however I

    was
    > not able to find a better solution (which could be lack of skills

    when it
    > comes to "internet development" therefore my question).


    Solutions-a-plenty here.

    > Merry Christmas to you all

    Hey we wil have none ofthat good cheer in this group!

    --
    -=Tn=-
     
    Travis Newbury, Dec 21, 2004
    #11
  12. Hans

    rf Guest

    Travis Newbury wrote:

    >
    > rf wrote:
    > > All up it seems to me like a *good* example of where frames are

    > useful.
    >
    > Heart stopping....
    >
    > clutching chest....


    WTF are you talking about?

    The OP's application just may be a perfect opportunity to use frames. Just
    like his other application may be a perfect opportunity to use excel, or
    visual basic, or mysql.

    It's not, after all, visible to you so why should you bloody care?

    --
    Cheers
    Richard.
     
    rf, Dec 21, 2004
    #12
  13. Hans

    Dylan Parry Guest

    rf wrote:
    [Frames on an intranet]
    > It's not, after all, visible to you so why should you bloody care?


    For what it's worth, I agree with you entirely, Richard.

    I would like to add though, that the OP should however check that he
    isn't violating any laws by making an Intranet application that is
    potentially inaccessible to some employees.

    --
    Dylan Parry
    http://webpageworkshop.co.uk -- FREE Web tutorials and references
     
    Dylan Parry, Dec 21, 2004
    #13
  14. While the city slept, rf (rf@.invalid) feverishly typed...

    > Hans wrote:
    >> P.s rf I really appreciate your help and I see that you are
    >> answering a lot of questions in this newsgroup.

    >
    > We fight over the opportunities.
    >
    >> Do you do this on your spare time or do you
    >> get paid by anyone to do this?

    >
    > ROFL...


    What? You mean you don't get paid for this rf? Everbody else does! I'd have
    a word with your agent! ;-)

    Cheers,
    Nige

    --
    Nigel Moss
    http://www.nigenet.org.uk
    Mail address not valid. , take the DOG. out!
    In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is very, very busy!
     
    nice.guy.nige, Dec 21, 2004
    #14
  15. Hans

    rf Guest

    nice.guy.nige wrote:
    > While the city slept, rf (rf@.invalid) feverishly typed...
    > > Hans wrote:


    > >> Do you do this on your spare time or do you
    > >> get paid by anyone to do this?

    > >
    > > ROFL...

    >
    > What? You mean you don't get paid for this rf? Everbody else does! I'd

    have
    > a word with your agent! ;-)


    brucie...

    Brucie?

    BRUCIE!

    Damn. Just when you need the bloody bloke he's on sabbatical :-(

    --
    Cheers
    Richard.
     
    rf, Dec 21, 2004
    #15
  16. Hans

    rf Guest

    Dylan Parry wrote:
    > rf wrote:
    > [Frames on an intranet]


    > I would like to add though, that the OP should however check that he
    > isn't violating any laws by making an Intranet application that is
    > potentially inaccessible to some employees.


    Hmmm. Then the OP must make sure that this does not occur. I know I do so
    with my "html applications". They behave just like any other windows
    application, like windows help, for example, which *is* an HTML application,
    well sort of :)

    --
    Cheers
    Richard.
     
    rf, Dec 21, 2004
    #16
  17. Hans

    Jan Faerber Guest

    Hans wrote:


    > If I remove the frames I would have to run the pretty heavy code for
    > building up the non-static treeview for every page (which includes
    > instantiating COM+ component and database access etc) and this will be
    > much slower than it is today (at least when I tested). The users want to
    > see the treeview all the time because they are familiar with that in the
    > windows client (otherwise a link to a page that shows the treeview could
    > be an alternative).


    Here they use frames and asp at the same time as far as I can see it.
    But they build up the treeview with every click on a menu item aswell.
    So the question is not so much frames or not frames. It depends on what you
    like:

    http://www.msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp

    > Is this just an unusual case where frames are the best choice or what
    > alternatives do I have? I prompted for removing the treeview (and also a
    > calendar frame) which are used rarely and add links that would open the
    > page with the treeview/calendar but they insisted that they should be
    > visible all the time.


    I think the guys who propagate php stop a little bit to soon proudly showing
    their efforts.


    >
    > Regards
    > /Hans



    --
    Jan

    http://linux.janfaerber.com
     
    Jan Faerber, Dec 21, 2004
    #17
  18. Hans

    Jan Faerber Guest

    rf wrote:

    > Dylan Parry wrote:
    >> rf wrote:
    >> [Frames on an intranet]

    >
    >> I would like to add though, that the OP should however check that he
    >> isn't violating any laws by making an Intranet application that is
    >> potentially inaccessible to some employees.

    >
    > Hmmm. Then the OP must make sure that this does not occur. I know I do so
    > with my "html applications". They behave just like any other windows
    > application, like windows help, for example, which *is* an HTML
    > application, well sort of :)
    >


    Why does this violate any laws?



    --
    Jan

    http://linux.janfaerber.com
     
    Jan Faerber, Dec 21, 2004
    #18
  19. Hans

    Dylan Parry Guest

    Jan Faerber wrote:

    > Why does this violate any laws?


    To quote a couple of random passages from something I am working on at
    the moment:

    _Americans with Disabilities Act_
    "Deval Patrick (US Assistant Attorney General in 2001) states that the
    ADA does apply to all Websites, as long as the public entity that
    created the site employs 15 or more employees"

    _Section 508 of the US Rehabilitation Act_
    "Section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act, which was most recently amended
    in 1998, states that Federal agencies are prohibited from ``procuring,
    developing, maintaining or using EIT (Electronic and Information
    Technology) that is inaccessible to people with disabilities."

    _Canadian Charter of Human Rights_
    "Every individual is equal before and under the law and has the right to
    the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination
    and, in particular, without discrimination based on race, national or
    ethnic origin, colour, religion, age, or \textbf{mental or physical
    disability}.

    This legislation applies to all situations encountered in all walks of
    life, and in particular it covers goods and services provided to the
    public. Whether or not this can be extended to online goods and services
    is not, however, a matter of debate as it has already been shown that
    the law applies to other forms of media --- specifically television."

    _UK Disability Discrimination Act_
    "Part three of the DDA refers to the ``provision of access to goods,
    facilities and services, including the general prohibition on unlawful
    discrimination''\citep{cooper1996}, and as such any online service, such
    as the example given above, should be deemed as a service covered by
    Part three of this act. Section 19(3) of the Act does list the
    generalised examples ``access to and use of information services, access
    to and use of means of communication, and facilities for entertainment''
    as cases where the Act is deemed to apply. It can be seen that all three
    of these cases can equally be applied to Websites, and as such the DDA
    would appear to apply here."

    _Australian Disability Discrimination Act_
    "On a Federal level, Australian disability legislation consists of the
    Disability Discrimination Act (DDA), which was introduced in 1993,
    several years before its UK counterpart. Just like the UK DDA, the
    Australian version was created long before the advent of the World Wide
    Web, and so does not mention Website accessibility as a specific case
    where it applies. It can be seen, however, that this legislation covers
    almost exactly the same areas as the UK DDA, and so should apply in
    cases of Website accessibility."

    I have more examples of legislation that applies to Websites (by which I
    mean Internet and Intranet) from various other countries, including
    Germany, Ireland and New Zealand, but I don't want to make this post any
    longer!

    The important thing to note here, especially with the ADA legislation,
    is that they all apply to both members of the public accessing a site
    *and* employees of the company who need to use it too.

    --
    Dylan Parry
    http://webpageworkshop.co.uk -- FREE Web tutorials and references
     
    Dylan Parry, Dec 21, 2004
    #19
  20. Hans

    jake Guest

    In message <>, SpaceGirl
    <> writes
    >jake wrote:
    >> In message <Xns95C5F19E8301usenetwipkipbiz@130.133.1.4>, Duende
    >><> writes
    >>
    >>> While sitting in a puddle rf scribbled in the mud:
    >>>
    >>>> Hans wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> In an in-house ASP site (designed to support IE5.5+ and NN7+) we
    >>>>>are using
    >>>>> frames today and I know there are several issues by using frames but I
    >>>>> cannot see a better alternative.
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> It is inhouse. It works. Your viewers are happy with it. The
    >>>>alternatives
    >>>> would not work nearly as fast. Why do you want to change it?
    >>>>
    >>>> All up it seems to me like a *good* example of where frames are useful.
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>> <grin> Gota love those frames. </grin>
    >>>

    >> Frames are your friends ;-)
    >>

    >
    >Best invention ever, after CSS-less 100% table fixed-width layouts.
    >

    A design concept guaranteed to work in all known browsers since before
    Netscape 2 ;-)

    --
    Jake
     
    jake, Dec 21, 2004
    #20
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