ANN: lunatic-python 0.1

[Gustavo Niemeyer]

What is it?
-----------

Lunatic Python is a two-way bridge between Python and Lua, allowing
these languages to intercommunicate. Being two-way means that it
allows Lua inside Python, Python inside Lua, Lua inside Python
inside Lua, Python inside Lua inside Python, and so on.

Where to get it?

 

[Paul Rubin]

What is it?
-----------

Lunatic Python is a two-way bridge between Python and Lua, allowing
these languages to intercommunicate. Being two-way means that it
allows Lua inside Python, Python inside Lua, Lua inside Python
inside Lua, Python inside Lua inside Python, and so on.

Where to get it?
----------------

But you left out the most important question: WHY?

 

[Rene Pijlman]

Paul Rubin:

Gustavo Niemeyer:

But you left out the most important question: WHY?

And: What is Lua? What is it good for?

"Lua, the extensible, embedded language ... for extending and customizing
applications ...
- Clear and simple syntax (since it is not the main language for most of
its users).
- Small size and small implementation (so the cost of adding it to the
host will not be too high).
- Good data-description facilities (to make it useful as a configuration
language).
- Adequate extensibility (to allow its use in high abstraction levels--for
interfacing with users in diverse domains)."
http://www.lua.org/ddj.html

 

[Paul Rubin]

And: What is Lua? What is it good for?

"Lua, the extensible, embedded language ... for extending and customizing
applications ...

Well, yeah, but Python is sort of similar, and somebody who chooses
one has generally decided that it fills their needs better than the
other. So why such a fancy interface between them?

--Paul (who'd actually like to see Python and Lua front ends to Guile)

 

[Gustavo Niemeyer]

But you left out the most important question: WHY?

That's *exactly* the second topic in the web page, but since you
obviously haven't looked at it, why do you care? Keep your
arrogance for yourself please.

 

[Arthur]

That's *exactly* the second topic in the web page, but since you
obviously haven't looked at it, why do you care? Keep your
arrogance for yourself please.

I found the recent thread on Prototype based programming (I don't
really know what that means, BTW) interesting enough to follow the
thread to the IO Language site:

http://www.iolanguage.com/

Which mentions Lua as an influence.

Which led me to the fact the Steve Dekorte (the IO BDFL) most recent
project before IO was Yindo:

http://www.yindo.com/

"Next generation web apps" which was (its abondoned) browser plug-in
enabled Lua with built in 3d and sound. Simple download of plug-in
and do the demos - and its nice.

Connecting this up with Python sures sounds very intriguing to me.

And I am going to have a play.

Art

 

[Terry Reedy]

But you left out the most important question:

WHY?

Generically, people experiment because they find a
project interesting or challenging. Besides ego,
they post in case there are at least a couple of
the thousands of readers and archive searchers
interested in the topic.

[second post]

Well, yeah, but Python is sort of similar, and somebody who chooses
one has generally decided that it fills their needs better than the
other. So why such a fancy interface between

them?

Suppose a Python afficionado, like me, find an app
that he wants to use that has Lua as the scripting
engine (I have seen such) and the person, like me,
does not really want to learn Lua. A bridge
requiring only a minimum of Lua knowledge would
make the app more interesting.

Terry J. Reedy

 

[Bengt Richter]

What is it?
-----------

Lunatic Python is a two-way bridge between Python and Lua, allowing
these languages to intercommunicate. Being two-way means that it
allows Lua inside Python, Python inside Lua, Lua inside Python
inside Lua, Python inside Lua inside Python, and so on.

Where to get it?
----------------

Documentation, examples, and downloads are available at:

https://moin.conectiva.com.br/LunaticPython

Why the https?

I expect you have a good explanation, but why not allow the explanation to be
seen via plain http, e.g., on an introductory page that might also tell
enough about the project so people can decide whether they want to go further?

You could just include a link to the above in the plain page, and tell people
what to expect if they click it.

Regards,
Bengt Richter

 

[Gustavo Niemeyer]

Why the https?

I expect you have a good explanation,

[...]

Unbelievable...

 

[Terry Reedy]

Why the https?

I expect you have a good explanation, but why

not allow the explanation to be

seen via plain http, e.g., on an introductory page that might also tell
enough about the project so people can decide

whether they want to go further?

Accessing above with default IE6 brings up
Untrusted Certificate page. With choices Proceed,
Stop, AddCertificate (to root table). It seems
conectiva issued itself its own certificate. I
hope this is just silliness rather than a devious
attempt to get people to accept its
self-certification, which I was not about to do.
I know enough that I thought it probably safe to
proceed without adding cert, but not enough to be
sure. Some people would stop there, and I might
have on another day. I recommend you take this up
with conectiva.

Terry J. Reedy

 

[Magnus Lie Hetland]

[snip]
But you left out the most important question: WHY?

Not the reason cited on the page, but: Python is great for writing
apps (that is, for _me_), and Lua is great for simple (even easier
than Python) scripting of apps (that is, for the _user_). So that's
one possible use...

 

[Gustavo Niemeyer]

Accessing above with default IE6 brings up Untrusted

Certificate page. With choices Proceed, Stop,
AddCertificate (to root table). It seems conectiva issued
itself its own certificate. I hope this is just silliness
rather than a devious attempt to get people to accept its
self-certification, which I was not about to do. I know

This is mostly a developers site. The https server is used
just to protect passwords from being sent as plain text.
Also, this is not silliness, and neither an attempt to
get people to do anything. It's just "do what you can, with
what you have, where you are".

enough that I thought it probably safe to proceed without
adding cert, but not enough to be sure. Some people would
stop there, and I might have on another day. I recommend
you take this up with conectiva.

I have mentioned this in the past, and will mention again now.

Thanks.

 

[Paul Rubin]

Accessing above with default IE6 brings up Untrusted Certificate
page. With choices Proceed, Stop, AddCertificate (to root table).
It seems conectiva issued itself its own certificate. I hope this
is just silliness rather than a devious attempt to get people to
accept its self-certification, which I was not about to do.

There's no way to turn off that dialog in IE except by using a cert
from a recognized CA, which usually costs money. Using a self-signed
cert gives you a private communications channel (unless the DNS is
hijacked by an active attacker) even though it doesn't provide
authentication. Lots of people use self-signed certs instead of
paying for commercial certs.

 

[Bengt Richter]

Why the https?

I expect you have a good explanation,

[...]

Unbelievable...

I apologize for whatever offense/unpleasant_astonishment I may have caused.

I'm guessing "I expect" was not the best choice of words, since one interpretation
could be to imply a totally inappropriate presumption of social relationship between us,
as between parent and a child being admonished (certainly not my attitude towards you ;-)
"Explanation" was not the best choice either, come to think of it.

I meant it in the sense of

"I'd be willing to bet you have good reasons..."

I hope that works better. Sorry (and thank you for your restrained reply ;-)

Regards,
Bengt Richter

 

[John J. Lee]

[snip]
But you left out the most important question: WHY?

Not the reason cited on the page, but: Python is great for writing
apps (that is, for _me_), and Lua is great for simple (even easier
than Python) scripting of apps (that is, for the _user_). So that's
one possible use...

Just wanted to say "me too", in defence of Gustavo (even though his
justification on the lunatic-python web page is quite sufficient!).


John

 

[John J. Lee]

Accessing above with default IE6 brings up
Untrusted Certificate page. With choices Proceed,
Stop, AddCertificate (to root table). It seems
conectiva issued itself its own certificate. I
hope this is just silliness rather than a devious
attempt to get people to accept its
self-certification, which I was not about to do.

One would assume that nobody geeky enough to want to play with a
Python / lua bridge would want add a root certificate from some random
site on the net.

I know enough that I thought it probably safe to
proceed without adding cert, but not enough to be
sure. Some people would stop there, and I might

[...]

"Probably" safe? What did you fear it could do? You're not sending
him your credit card details, right?

In fact, even if you *are* sending him your credit card details, it's
*still* of almost no consequence, SSL being pretty useless in practice
(see Bruce Schneier's writings on the subject, eg. in "Secrets and
Lies")...


John

 

[Bengt Richter]

There's no way to turn off that dialog in IE except by using a cert
from a recognized CA, which usually costs money. Using a self-signed
cert gives you a private communications channel (unless the DNS is
hijacked by an active attacker) even though it doesn't provide
authentication. Lots of people use self-signed certs instead of
paying for commercial certs.

Well, connectiva doesn't use https for their home page ;-)

http://www.conectiva.com.br/

But apparently all access to the moin.connectiva.com.br domain is intercepted.
If the whole thing is a wiki, I can see the reason to track updaters, but OTOH,
if publishing information is the goal, maybe they could provide read-only access
via another name, e.g., http://moinro.connectiva.com.br/, if they want to keep things
as they are for the original name. Or just show a limited sub-tree of the wiki, which
members could avoid if they didn't want their contributions read outside the group.

Regards,
Bengt Richter

 

[Paul Rubin]

In fact, even if you *are* sending him your credit card details, it's
*still* of almost no consequence, SSL being pretty useless in practice
(see Bruce Schneier's writings on the subject, eg. in "Secrets and
Lies")...

I wouldn't say SSL is useless in practice, but the CA business
certainly is 99% scam.

 

[Michael Hudson]

[snip]
But you left out the most important question: WHY?

Not the reason cited on the page, but: Python is great for writing
apps (that is, for _me_), and Lua is great for simple (even easier
than Python) scripting of apps (that is, for the _user_). So that's
one possible use...

I also happen to know that

a) apt-rpm is scriptable with lua
b) Gustavo Niemeyer is involved with the development of apt-rpm
c) Gustavo likes Python

I suspect there may be connections between the above statements

Cheers,
mwh

-- It was shit. Give us another one.
-- NTK Now, 2000-12-29, http://www.ntk.net/

 

[Tim Roberts]

Unbelievable...

I'm not sure I understand your disbelief. The web site is entirely static
text. I certainly do not understand why you chose to put this on an
encrypted connection with a self-issued certificate.