ANN: lunatic-python 0.1

Discussion in 'Python' started by Gustavo Niemeyer, Dec 13, 2003.

  1. What is it?
    -----------

    Lunatic Python is a two-way bridge between Python and Lua, allowing
    these languages to intercommunicate. Being two-way means that it
    allows Lua inside Python, Python inside Lua, Lua inside Python
    inside Lua, Python inside Lua inside Python, and so on.

    Where to get it?
    ----------------

    Documentation, examples, and downloads are available at:

    https://moin.conectiva.com.br/LunaticPython

    --
    Gustavo Niemeyer
    http://niemeyer.net
     
    Gustavo Niemeyer, Dec 13, 2003
    #1
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  2. Gustavo Niemeyer

    Paul Rubin Guest

    Gustavo Niemeyer <> writes:

    > What is it?
    > -----------
    >
    > Lunatic Python is a two-way bridge between Python and Lua, allowing
    > these languages to intercommunicate. Being two-way means that it
    > allows Lua inside Python, Python inside Lua, Lua inside Python
    > inside Lua, Python inside Lua inside Python, and so on.
    >
    > Where to get it?
    > ----------------



    But you left out the most important question: WHY?
     
    Paul Rubin, Dec 13, 2003
    #2
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  3. Gustavo Niemeyer

    Rene Pijlman Guest

    Paul Rubin:
    >Gustavo Niemeyer:
    >> Lunatic Python is a two-way bridge between Python and Lua

    >
    >But you left out the most important question: WHY?


    And: What is Lua? What is it good for?

    "Lua, the extensible, embedded language ... for extending and customizing
    applications ...
    - Clear and simple syntax (since it is not the main language for most of
    its users).
    - Small size and small implementation (so the cost of adding it to the
    host will not be too high).
    - Good data-description facilities (to make it useful as a configuration
    language).
    - Adequate extensibility (to allow its use in high abstraction levels--for
    interfacing with users in diverse domains)."
    http://www.lua.org/ddj.html

    --
    René Pijlman
     
    Rene Pijlman, Dec 13, 2003
    #3
  4. Gustavo Niemeyer

    Paul Rubin Guest

    Rene Pijlman <> writes:
    > And: What is Lua? What is it good for?
    >
    > "Lua, the extensible, embedded language ... for extending and customizing
    > applications ...


    Well, yeah, but Python is sort of similar, and somebody who chooses
    one has generally decided that it fills their needs better than the
    other. So why such a fancy interface between them?

    --Paul (who'd actually like to see Python and Lua front ends to Guile)
     
    Paul Rubin, Dec 13, 2003
    #4
  5. > But you left out the most important question: WHY?

    That's *exactly* the second topic in the web page, but since you
    obviously haven't looked at it, why do you care? Keep your
    arrogance for yourself please.

    --
    Gustavo Niemeyer
    http://niemeyer.net
     
    Gustavo Niemeyer, Dec 13, 2003
    #5
  6. Gustavo Niemeyer

    Arthur Guest

    On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 11:55:12 -0200, Gustavo Niemeyer
    <> wrote:

    >> But you left out the most important question: WHY?

    >
    >That's *exactly* the second topic in the web page, but since you
    >obviously haven't looked at it, why do you care? Keep your
    >arrogance for yourself please.



    I found the recent thread on Prototype based programming (I don't
    really know what that means, BTW) interesting enough to follow the
    thread to the IO Language site:

    http://www.iolanguage.com/

    Which mentions Lua as an influence.

    Which led me to the fact the Steve Dekorte (the IO BDFL) most recent
    project before IO was Yindo:

    http://www.yindo.com/

    "Next generation web apps" which was (its abondoned) browser plug-in
    enabled Lua with built in 3d and sound. Simple download of plug-in
    and do the demos - and its nice.

    Connecting this up with Python sures sounds very intriguing to me.

    And I am going to have a play.

    Art
     
    Arthur, Dec 13, 2003
    #6
  7. Gustavo Niemeyer

    Terry Reedy Guest

    "Paul Rubin" <http://> wrote
    in message
    > But you left out the most important question:

    WHY?

    Generically, people experiment because they find a
    project interesting or challenging. Besides ego,
    they post in case there are at least a couple of
    the thousands of readers and archive searchers
    interested in the topic.

    [second post]
    > Well, yeah, but Python is sort of similar, and

    somebody who chooses
    > one has generally decided that it fills their

    needs better than the
    > other. So why such a fancy interface between

    them?

    Suppose a Python afficionado, like me, find an app
    that he wants to use that has Lua as the scripting
    engine (I have seen such) and the person, like me,
    does not really want to learn Lua. A bridge
    requiring only a minimum of Lua knowledge would
    make the app more interesting.

    Terry J. Reedy
     
    Terry Reedy, Dec 13, 2003
    #7
  8. On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 04:05:39 -0200, Gustavo Niemeyer <> wrote:

    >What is it?
    >-----------
    >
    >Lunatic Python is a two-way bridge between Python and Lua, allowing
    >these languages to intercommunicate. Being two-way means that it
    >allows Lua inside Python, Python inside Lua, Lua inside Python
    >inside Lua, Python inside Lua inside Python, and so on.
    >
    >Where to get it?
    >----------------
    >
    >Documentation, examples, and downloads are available at:
    >
    >https://moin.conectiva.com.br/LunaticPython

    Why the https?

    I expect you have a good explanation, but why not allow the explanation to be
    seen via plain http, e.g., on an introductory page that might also tell
    enough about the project so people can decide whether they want to go further?

    You could just include a link to the above in the plain page, and tell people
    what to expect if they click it.

    Regards,
    Bengt Richter
     
    Bengt Richter, Dec 13, 2003
    #8
  9. > Why the https?
    >
    > I expect you have a good explanation,

    [...]

    Unbelievable...

    --
    Gustavo Niemeyer
    http://niemeyer.net
     
    Gustavo Niemeyer, Dec 13, 2003
    #9
  10. Gustavo Niemeyer

    Terry Reedy Guest

    "Bengt Richter" <> wrote in message
    news:brfq00$so5$0@216.39.172.122...
    > On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 04:05:39 -0200, Gustavo

    Niemeyer <> wrote:
    >
    > >https://moin.conectiva.com.br/LunaticPython

    > Why the https?
    >
    > I expect you have a good explanation, but why

    not allow the explanation to be
    > seen via plain http, e.g., on an introductory

    page that might also tell
    > enough about the project so people can decide

    whether they want to go further?

    Accessing above with default IE6 brings up
    Untrusted Certificate page. With choices Proceed,
    Stop, AddCertificate (to root table). It seems
    conectiva issued itself its own certificate. I
    hope this is just silliness rather than a devious
    attempt to get people to accept its
    self-certification, which I was not about to do.
    I know enough that I thought it probably safe to
    proceed without adding cert, but not enough to be
    sure. Some people would stop there, and I might
    have on another day. I recommend you take this up
    with conectiva.

    Terry J. Reedy
     
    Terry Reedy, Dec 13, 2003
    #10
  11. In article <>, Paul Rubin wrote:
    >Gustavo Niemeyer <> writes:
    >

    [snip]
    >But you left out the most important question: WHY?


    Not the reason cited on the page, but: Python is great for writing
    apps (that is, for _me_), and Lua is great for simple (even easier
    than Python) scripting of apps (that is, for the _user_). So that's
    one possible use...

    --
    Magnus Lie Hetland "The mind is not a vessel to be filled,
    http://hetland.org but a fire to be lighted." [Plutarch]
     
    Magnus Lie Hetland, Dec 13, 2003
    #11
  12. > Accessing above with default IE6 brings up Untrusted
    > Certificate page. With choices Proceed, Stop,
    > AddCertificate (to root table). It seems conectiva issued
    > itself its own certificate. I hope this is just silliness
    > rather than a devious attempt to get people to accept its
    > self-certification, which I was not about to do. I know


    This is mostly a developers site. The https server is used
    just to protect passwords from being sent as plain text.
    Also, this is not silliness, and neither an attempt to
    get people to do anything. It's just "do what you can, with
    what you have, where you are".

    > enough that I thought it probably safe to proceed without
    > adding cert, but not enough to be sure. Some people would
    > stop there, and I might have on another day. I recommend
    > you take this up with conectiva.


    I have mentioned this in the past, and will mention again now.

    Thanks.

    --
    Gustavo Niemeyer
    http://niemeyer.net
     
    Gustavo Niemeyer, Dec 13, 2003
    #12
  13. Gustavo Niemeyer

    Paul Rubin Guest

    "Terry Reedy" <> writes:
    > Accessing above with default IE6 brings up Untrusted Certificate
    > page. With choices Proceed, Stop, AddCertificate (to root table).
    > It seems conectiva issued itself its own certificate. I hope this
    > is just silliness rather than a devious attempt to get people to
    > accept its self-certification, which I was not about to do.


    There's no way to turn off that dialog in IE except by using a cert
    from a recognized CA, which usually costs money. Using a self-signed
    cert gives you a private communications channel (unless the DNS is
    hijacked by an active attacker) even though it doesn't provide
    authentication. Lots of people use self-signed certs instead of
    paying for commercial certs.
     
    Paul Rubin, Dec 13, 2003
    #13
  14. On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 18:18:36 -0200, Gustavo Niemeyer <> wrote:

    >> Why the https?
    >>
    >> I expect you have a good explanation,

    >[...]
    >
    >Unbelievable...

    I apologize for whatever offense/unpleasant_astonishment I may have caused.

    I'm guessing "I expect" was not the best choice of words, since one interpretation
    could be to imply a totally inappropriate presumption of social relationship between us,
    as between parent and a child being admonished (certainly not my attitude towards you ;-)
    "Explanation" was not the best choice either, come to think of it.

    I meant it in the sense of

    "I'd be willing to bet you have good reasons..."

    I hope that works better. Sorry (and thank you for your restrained reply ;-)

    Regards,
    Bengt Richter
     
    Bengt Richter, Dec 14, 2003
    #14
  15. Gustavo Niemeyer

    John J. Lee Guest

    (Magnus Lie Hetland) writes:

    > In article <>, Paul Rubin wrote:
    > >Gustavo Niemeyer <> writes:
    > >

    > [snip]
    > >But you left out the most important question: WHY?

    >
    > Not the reason cited on the page, but: Python is great for writing
    > apps (that is, for _me_), and Lua is great for simple (even easier
    > than Python) scripting of apps (that is, for the _user_). So that's
    > one possible use...


    Just wanted to say "me too", in defence of Gustavo (even though his
    justification on the lunatic-python web page is quite sufficient!).


    John
     
    John J. Lee, Dec 14, 2003
    #15
  16. Gustavo Niemeyer

    John J. Lee Guest

    "Terry Reedy" <> writes:
    [...]
    > Accessing above with default IE6 brings up
    > Untrusted Certificate page. With choices Proceed,
    > Stop, AddCertificate (to root table). It seems
    > conectiva issued itself its own certificate. I
    > hope this is just silliness rather than a devious
    > attempt to get people to accept its
    > self-certification, which I was not about to do.


    One would assume that nobody geeky enough to want to play with a
    Python / lua bridge would want add a root certificate from some random
    site on the net.


    > I know enough that I thought it probably safe to
    > proceed without adding cert, but not enough to be
    > sure. Some people would stop there, and I might

    [...]

    "Probably" safe? What did you fear it could do? You're not sending
    him your credit card details, right?

    In fact, even if you *are* sending him your credit card details, it's
    *still* of almost no consequence, SSL being pretty useless in practice
    (see Bruce Schneier's writings on the subject, eg. in "Secrets and
    Lies")...


    John
     
    John J. Lee, Dec 14, 2003
    #16
  17. On 13 Dec 2003 14:39:56 -0800, Paul Rubin <http://> wrote:

    >"Terry Reedy" <> writes:
    >> Accessing above with default IE6 brings up Untrusted Certificate
    >> page. With choices Proceed, Stop, AddCertificate (to root table).
    >> It seems conectiva issued itself its own certificate. I hope this
    >> is just silliness rather than a devious attempt to get people to
    >> accept its self-certification, which I was not about to do.

    >
    >There's no way to turn off that dialog in IE except by using a cert
    >from a recognized CA, which usually costs money. Using a self-signed
    >cert gives you a private communications channel (unless the DNS is
    >hijacked by an active attacker) even though it doesn't provide
    >authentication. Lots of people use self-signed certs instead of
    >paying for commercial certs.


    Well, connectiva doesn't use https for their home page ;-)

    http://www.conectiva.com.br/

    But apparently all access to the moin.connectiva.com.br domain is intercepted.
    If the whole thing is a wiki, I can see the reason to track updaters, but OTOH,
    if publishing information is the goal, maybe they could provide read-only access
    via another name, e.g., http://moinro.connectiva.com.br/, if they want to keep things
    as they are for the original name. Or just show a limited sub-tree of the wiki, which
    members could avoid if they didn't want their contributions read outside the group.

    Regards,
    Bengt Richter
     
    Bengt Richter, Dec 14, 2003
    #17
  18. Gustavo Niemeyer

    Paul Rubin Guest

    (John J. Lee) writes:
    > In fact, even if you *are* sending him your credit card details, it's
    > *still* of almost no consequence, SSL being pretty useless in practice
    > (see Bruce Schneier's writings on the subject, eg. in "Secrets and
    > Lies")...


    I wouldn't say SSL is useless in practice, but the CA business
    certainly is 99% scam.
     
    Paul Rubin, Dec 14, 2003
    #18
  19. (Magnus Lie Hetland) writes:

    > In article <>, Paul Rubin wrote:
    > >Gustavo Niemeyer <> writes:
    > >

    > [snip]
    > >But you left out the most important question: WHY?

    >
    > Not the reason cited on the page, but: Python is great for writing
    > apps (that is, for _me_), and Lua is great for simple (even easier
    > than Python) scripting of apps (that is, for the _user_). So that's
    > one possible use...


    I also happen to know that

    a) apt-rpm is scriptable with lua
    b) Gustavo Niemeyer is involved with the development of apt-rpm
    c) Gustavo likes Python

    I suspect there may be connections between the above statements :)

    Cheers,
    mwh

    --
    >> REVIEW OF THE YEAR, 2000 <<

    It was shit. Give us another one.
    -- NTK Now, 2000-12-29, http://www.ntk.net/
     
    Michael Hudson, Dec 14, 2003
    #19
  20. Gustavo Niemeyer

    Tim Roberts Guest

    Gustavo Niemeyer <> wrote:

    >> Why the https?
    >>
    >> I expect you have a good explanation,

    >
    >Unbelievable...


    I'm not sure I understand your disbelief. The web site is entirely static
    text. I certainly do not understand why you chose to put this on an
    encrypted connection with a self-issued certificate.
    --
    - Tim Roberts,
    Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.
     
    Tim Roberts, Dec 15, 2003
    #20
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