Another FAILED n-Tier / OOP Web project.......

Discussion in 'ASP .Net' started by nospam, Nov 8, 2003.

  1. nospam

    nospam Guest

    THIS IS the DOTNETJUNKIES MESSAGE
    -------------------------
    We're Sorry
    As many of you know we have recently launched SqlJunkies.com. We have
    overhauled our runtime and will be using it on DotNetJunkies.com also.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------


    YEP, DOTNET JUNKIES REDESIGN....

    What happened to the OOP n-Tier stuff? Huhhhhhh??????

    Where is that 2-SECOND CHANGE?

    WOW...TOTAL REBUILD OF THE ENTIRE ENGINE!!!!

    HOW COME THEY COULDN'T GET IT RIGHT IN THE FIRST PLACE?

    WHAT HAPPENED TO THE DESIGN PHASE??????

    BUT OOP and n-TIER IS SUPPOSED TO FLEXIBLE AND EXTENSIBLE TO ALL VAST DESIGN
    CHANGES ISN'T IT?

    BUT GUESS WHAT? IT DIDN"T HAPPEN.

    WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

    IT MEANS YOU CAN"T PREDICT THE FUTURE in YOUR DESIGN PHASE!!!!

    EVEN A MODERATELY COMPLEX site like DotNetJunkies can't do it, why in the
    world should you think that a corporate site that has COMPETITORS be able to
    do it??????

    Did it ever occur to you that as the web site gets older, it will get more
    features and more requirements that will NEVER be designed for in the DESIGN
    PHASE of OOP n-Tier methodology?

    WEB SITES ARE NOT LIKE HOUSES or BUILDING CARS where you have a BLUEPRINT
    (OR OBJECT MODEL) of what to make. What good is your OBJECT MODEL if the KEY
    things change all the time?

    OH, but what about INHERITANCE? Well, doesn't seem to be used that
    effectively by the DotNetJunkies site does it? IF they did use Inheritance,
    why did they have to do a complete engine redesign?

    Well it's because they want a CLEAN site......INHERITANCE = LEGACY = LOWER
    QUALITY = 2 CODE BASES = MORE MAINTENANCE = MORE WORK = MORE TIME WASTED


    You OOP n-TIER fanactics have to face up to the fact the the OOP model can't
    work in the business world? Where are all those design patterns?

    If these guys can't do it, why should you MVP's and OOP FANATICS who don't
    even have a web site be able to do it?

    BUILDING A PRODUCTION WEB SITE IS A LOT HARDER THEN JUST ANSWERING QUESTIONS
    ON THE NEWSGROUPS or TEACHING ANY and ALL .NET CLASSES OR EVEN GIVING OUT A
    PDC SEMINAR....



    EVEN THE .NET PORTAL and DOTNETNUKE have LOTS AND LOTS of trouble
    implementing changes...
    Why should you expect it to be any different for an even larger e-Commerce
    Fortune 500 web site?????


    STICK THAT IN YOUR EAR!!!!!!

    THOSE ARE THE FACTS. PERIOD.

    IF YOU are STILL so BRAINWASHED on the n-TIER / OOP BENEFITS you are in
    COMPLETE DENIAL OF WHAT HAPPENS IN THE REAL WORLD.

    AND THAT"S WHY YOUR JOBS ARE GOING OFFSHORE. BECAUSE OOP AND N-TIER
    ARCHITECTURE PRODUCE LOW QUALITY PRODUCTS and IF I am going to get LOW
    quality products why should I pay TOP consulting fee prices....????



    THIS IS THE REST OF THEIR MESSAGE...
    ------------------------------------------------
    We're Sorry
    As many of you know we have recently launched SqlJunkies.com. We have
    overhauled our runtime and will be using it on DotNetJunkies.com also. With
    the new runtime and build we implemented a central users database so you
    don't have to sign up on multiple sites. The downfall is that we had to put
    a hold on the database currently running DotNetJunkies. What that means to
    you is that we can't add new articles, news, events, or even members.
    Although, new members can sign up on SqlJunkies Here and when we launch the
    new build of DotNetJunkies you will automatically be a member.
    Rest assured we have a ton of articles and how to's on hold so when we
    launch you'll see a ton of new stuff.

    Again we're sorry for any hassle we may be causing and the new build will be
    up shortly.
     
    nospam, Nov 8, 2003
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Hello nospam,

    How's MOM and POP these days? I trust that they''re doing well and progressing nicely
    with their Windows Server, IIS, ASP.NET, MSDN subscription and all that at the usual
    bargain prices.

    Regards,
    Fergus
     
    Fergus Cooney, Nov 8, 2003
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. nospam

    Empire City Guest

    You make some interesting points but you seem a bit bitter. Did you know
    that there are many excellent brands of decaffinated coffee on the market.
    The site looks very nice to me.

    > HOW COME THEY COULDN'T GET IT RIGHT IN THE FIRST PLACE?


    Project management 101. The old time, quality, resources triangle. Subtract
    from any item it and you will need to increase one of the others to produce
    the same result.

    > WHAT HAPPENED TO THE DESIGN PHASE??????


    They probably could'nt afford it. I recently quoted someone $200,000 for a
    project. They were shocked. Then I told them that was just for the design
    and specification.

    > BUT OOP and n-TIER IS SUPPOSED TO FLEXIBLE AND EXTENSIBLE TO ALL VAST

    DESIGN
    > CHANGES ISN'T IT?


    If written properly. It would seem to me that vast design changes would be
    best off with a new design. Did you ever read a book on oo programming?

    > IT MEANS YOU CAN"T PREDICT THE FUTURE in YOUR DESIGN PHASE!!!!


    I can predict with absolute 100% certainty that I'd always like my system to
    be able to make me a cheeseburger.

    > world should you think that a corporate site that has COMPETITORS be able

    to
    > do it??????


    Let's say a JP Morgan sees that if they had a nice system that was auditable
    they could open a new credit derivitave market and could make 20 million a
    day. I think they could afford a good design.

    > Did it ever occur to you that as the web site gets older, it will get more

    features

    Is that a trick question?

    > and more requirements that will NEVER be designed for in the DESIGN
    > PHASE of OOP n-Tier methodology?


    Totally incorrect. Let's just take a simple example of a customer
    maintenance screen that you may want to add another field too. Good design
    leads to flexibility and understandability wether it's oo design or
    whatever. Poor design leads to less flexibility. In a way I have to agree
    that the multi-tier design may be seen somewhat as a limitation of MS.
    Specifically that you might need to take a logical layer and move it to a
    physical layer on a different machine for performance reasons. Maybe a
    talking point would be using a Sun/Oracle system instead. No design is
    perfect because the world is not perfect (possibly with the exception of my
    world, hopefully I'll get to go out rollerblading down to West Broadway
    Soho, 41 degrees and sunny in the Big Apple).

    > WEB SITES ARE NOT LIKE HOUSES or BUILDING CARS where you have a BLUEPRINT
    > (OR OBJECT MODEL) of what to make. What good is your OBJECT MODEL if the

    KEY
    > things change all the time?


    What good is the blueprint of a house if you decide you don't want a
    basement anymore.

    > OH, but what about INHERITANCE? Well, doesn't seem to be used that
    > effectively by the DotNetJunkies site does it? IF they did use

    Inheritance,
    > why did they have to do a complete engine redesign?


    Sounds like they are overusing Inheritance in a similar way people overuse
    web services. Look at the PageBase module of the Duwamish sample for a good
    way to use Inheritance.

    > BUILDING A PRODUCTION WEB SITE IS A LOT HARDER THEN JUST ANSWERING

    QUESTIONS
    > ON THE NEWSGROUPS or TEACHING ANY and ALL .NET CLASSES OR EVEN GIVING OUT

    A
    > PDC SEMINAR....


    That seems rather obvious. You might want to figure out a bit of list
    etiquette. The purpose of these lists is learning.

    > EVEN THE .NET PORTAL and DOTNETNUKE have LOTS AND LOTS of trouble
    > implementing changes...
    > Why should you expect it to be any different for an even larger e-Commerce
    > Fortune 500 web site?????


    So should we feel sorry for dotnetnukes?

    > THOSE ARE THE FACTS. PERIOD.


    Yes, you are often stating facts. Does saying period make them more of a
    fact.

    > IF YOU are STILL so BRAINWASHED on the n-TIER / OOP BENEFITS you are in
    > COMPLETE DENIAL OF WHAT HAPPENS IN THE REAL WORLD.


    Can you propose a different way to go? I'm sure we would all be facinated to
    see something. Don't confuse corporate, media and MS brainwashing towards
    their particular products with solid scientific design benefits.

    > AND THAT"S WHY YOUR JOBS ARE GOING OFFSHORE. BECAUSE OOP AND N-TIER
    > ARCHITECTURE PRODUCE LOW QUALITY PRODUCTS and IF I am going to get LOW
    > quality products why should I pay TOP consulting fee prices....????


    Are you saying that programmers in India don't use oo design?

    The other response I saw on the C# list basically completly responded to
    your posting with three words "Mom and Pop" That seems to be the scenario of
    what you are looking at.

    You can't expect a young person to be a real world expert on oo design, ie:
    been there, done that, now know how to do it again a bit better now. OO
    methodology has'nt even been around that long. It's definetly evolving as is
    the speed of computer hardware and how software can take advantage of that.
    One does not learn to be a master programmer by being a master programmer.
    One learns to be a master programmer by first being a junior programmer,
    mid-level programmer, senior programmer, junior analyst, mid-level analyst,
    senior analyst, junior business analyst, mid-level business analyst, senior
    business analyst, ..., project leader, project manager, etc.

    I personally don't really find a problem with the attitude of your posting.
    It was interesting. I believe in throwing a bit of entertainment and
    personality into our world of computer science. But don't put down people
    who are trying to help others in what may appear to you to be in their own
    limited way.
     
    Empire City, Nov 8, 2003
    #3
  4. nospam

    Empire City Guest

    Forgot to ad that I only read the csharp group if you want to respond.
     
    Empire City, Nov 8, 2003
    #4
  5. nospam

    Empire City Guest

    Forgot to ad that I only read the csharp group if you want to respond.
     
    Empire City, Nov 8, 2003
    #5
  6. nospam

    Empire City Guest

    Forgot to ad that I only read the csharp group if you want to respond.
     
    Empire City, Nov 8, 2003
    #6
  7. nospam

    Bob Lehmann Guest

    So, do you only read the csharp group? :>)

    PS - nospam is an idiot. He occasionally trolls the groups with his
    unifromed, ignorant anti-OOP blatherings.

    Bob Lehmann

    "Empire City" <> wrote in message
    news:sU8rb.126822$...
    > Forgot to ad that I only read the csharp group if you want to respond.
    >
    >
    >
     
    Bob Lehmann, Nov 8, 2003
    #7
  8. nospam

    Empire City Guest

    Makes you think about the difference between being ignorant and an
    ignoramus.

    I'm not sure why I only read the CSharp group. I never did VB. Did FoxPro
    until a few years ago, before that was a mini/mainframe person. I like C#,
    but am still learning it. I guess at some point my learning will get more
    into the framework and aspnet side.

    > PS - nospam is an idiot. He occasionally trolls the groups with his
    > unifromed, ignorant anti-OOP blatherings.
     
    Empire City, Nov 8, 2003
    #8
  9. Hi Empire,

    Well, the whole VB group is reading you loud and clear, over!
    And all the others listed up there in the newsgroups box.

    So, inadvertent or not, Welcome to the world outside csharp. ;-))

    Regards,
    Fergus
     
    Fergus Cooney, Nov 8, 2003
    #9
  10. nospam

    William Ryan Guest

    My job isn't going offshore... and heck, I have more work than I can shake a
    stick at. You live in the richest country in the world and have
    opportunities that many people can only dream of. If people many more
    hurdles than you ever had to deal with can convince those paying you, to go
    with them instead to the point it disrupts your career, that says a lot more
    about you than it does about OOP.

    You can't build anything worth selling without embracing objects... you are
    insane.

    Can you show us some examples of your ultra elite web sites or programs?
    How about a press release from some of your stellar products? Or a Resume?

    Since I have yet to see you post anything positive or productive, why don't
    you and Bailo start a PhP newsgroup somewhere, you can even write it in one
    tier with procedural code, and hell, use Comma Separated Text files for your
    database.
    "nospam" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > THIS IS the DOTNETJUNKIES MESSAGE
    > -------------------------
    > We're Sorry
    > As many of you know we have recently launched SqlJunkies.com. We have
    > overhauled our runtime and will be using it on DotNetJunkies.com also.
    > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    >
    >
    > YEP, DOTNET JUNKIES REDESIGN....
    >
    > What happened to the OOP n-Tier stuff? Huhhhhhh??????
    >
    > Where is that 2-SECOND CHANGE?
    >
    > WOW...TOTAL REBUILD OF THE ENTIRE ENGINE!!!!
    >
    > HOW COME THEY COULDN'T GET IT RIGHT IN THE FIRST PLACE?
    >
    > WHAT HAPPENED TO THE DESIGN PHASE??????
    >
    > BUT OOP and n-TIER IS SUPPOSED TO FLEXIBLE AND EXTENSIBLE TO ALL VAST

    DESIGN
    > CHANGES ISN'T IT?
    >
    > BUT GUESS WHAT? IT DIDN"T HAPPEN.
    >
    > WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
    >
    > IT MEANS YOU CAN"T PREDICT THE FUTURE in YOUR DESIGN PHASE!!!!
    >
    > EVEN A MODERATELY COMPLEX site like DotNetJunkies can't do it, why in the
    > world should you think that a corporate site that has COMPETITORS be able

    to
    > do it??????
    >
    > Did it ever occur to you that as the web site gets older, it will get more
    > features and more requirements that will NEVER be designed for in the

    DESIGN
    > PHASE of OOP n-Tier methodology?
    >
    > WEB SITES ARE NOT LIKE HOUSES or BUILDING CARS where you have a BLUEPRINT
    > (OR OBJECT MODEL) of what to make. What good is your OBJECT MODEL if the

    KEY
    > things change all the time?
    >
    > OH, but what about INHERITANCE? Well, doesn't seem to be used that
    > effectively by the DotNetJunkies site does it? IF they did use

    Inheritance,
    > why did they have to do a complete engine redesign?
    >
    > Well it's because they want a CLEAN site......INHERITANCE = LEGACY = LOWER
    > QUALITY = 2 CODE BASES = MORE MAINTENANCE = MORE WORK = MORE TIME WASTED
    >
    >
    > You OOP n-TIER fanactics have to face up to the fact the the OOP model

    can't
    > work in the business world? Where are all those design patterns?
    >
    > If these guys can't do it, why should you MVP's and OOP FANATICS who don't
    > even have a web site be able to do it?
    >
    > BUILDING A PRODUCTION WEB SITE IS A LOT HARDER THEN JUST ANSWERING

    QUESTIONS
    > ON THE NEWSGROUPS or TEACHING ANY and ALL .NET CLASSES OR EVEN GIVING OUT

    A
    > PDC SEMINAR....
    >
    >
    >
    > EVEN THE .NET PORTAL and DOTNETNUKE have LOTS AND LOTS of trouble
    > implementing changes...
    > Why should you expect it to be any different for an even larger e-Commerce
    > Fortune 500 web site?????
    >
    >
    > STICK THAT IN YOUR EAR!!!!!!
    >
    > THOSE ARE THE FACTS. PERIOD.
    >
    > IF YOU are STILL so BRAINWASHED on the n-TIER / OOP BENEFITS you are in
    > COMPLETE DENIAL OF WHAT HAPPENS IN THE REAL WORLD.
    >
    > AND THAT"S WHY YOUR JOBS ARE GOING OFFSHORE. BECAUSE OOP AND N-TIER
    > ARCHITECTURE PRODUCE LOW QUALITY PRODUCTS and IF I am going to get LOW
    > quality products why should I pay TOP consulting fee prices....????
    >
    >
    >
    > THIS IS THE REST OF THEIR MESSAGE...
    > ------------------------------------------------
    > We're Sorry
    > As many of you know we have recently launched SqlJunkies.com. We have
    > overhauled our runtime and will be using it on DotNetJunkies.com also.

    With
    > the new runtime and build we implemented a central users database so you
    > don't have to sign up on multiple sites. The downfall is that we had to

    put
    > a hold on the database currently running DotNetJunkies. What that means to
    > you is that we can't add new articles, news, events, or even members.
    > Although, new members can sign up on SqlJunkies Here and when we launch

    the
    > new build of DotNetJunkies you will automatically be a member.
    > Rest assured we have a ton of articles and how to's on hold so when we
    > launch you'll see a ton of new stuff.
    >
    > Again we're sorry for any hassle we may be causing and the new build will

    be
    > up shortly.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
     
    William Ryan, Nov 8, 2003
    #10
  11. nospam

    nospam Guest

    Hello Fergus,

    Are you calling DotNetJunkies.com web site a MOM and POP operations?
    Don't have anything to say do you? If you do, why not say it to
    DotNetJunkies.com? They are the one who's site is down for an extended
    period of time.

    What's a matter? Are you in complete denial?


    ...................





    "Fergus Cooney" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Hello nospam,
    >
    > How's MOM and POP these days? I trust that they''re doing well and

    progressing nicely
    > with their Windows Server, IIS, ASP.NET, MSDN subscription and all that at

    the usual
    > bargain prices.
    >
    > Regards,
    > Fergus
    >
    >
     
    nospam, Nov 8, 2003
    #11
  12. nospam

    nospam Guest

    COMMENTS INLINE BELOW...............


    "Empire City" <> wrote in message
    news:JQ8rb.126779$...
    > You make some interesting points but you seem a bit bitter. Did you know
    > that there are many excellent brands of decaffinated coffee on the market.
    > The site looks very nice to me.
    >
    > > HOW COME THEY COULDN'T GET IT RIGHT IN THE FIRST PLACE?

    >
    > Project management 101. The old time, quality, resources triangle.

    Subtract
    > from any item it and you will need to increase one of the others to

    produce
    > the same result.
    >


    BLAH BLAH BLAH....
    DotNetJunkies.com are supposed to be the EXPERTS. Plus you don't even have a
    web site to even point to.


    > > WHAT HAPPENED TO THE DESIGN PHASE??????

    >
    > They probably could'nt afford it. I recently quoted someone $200,000 for a
    > project. They were shocked. Then I told them that was just for the design
    > and specification.



    $200k !!! ha ha ha... no wonder why you don't have a web site.....
    I guess it would have take you 2 years to do as well right?



    >
    > > BUT OOP and n-TIER IS SUPPOSED TO FLEXIBLE AND EXTENSIBLE TO ALL VAST

    > DESIGN
    > > CHANGES ISN'T IT?

    >
    > If written properly. It would seem to me that vast design changes would be
    > best off with a new design. Did you ever read a book on oo programming?



    DUHHHHHHH......
    I guess you could have written it properly then? I don't see your web site,
    but then again it takes you 2 years to do one anyway. So, I guess you spend
    all your time reading books on OO programming, YET, just can't seem to find
    the time to actually produce a web site.




    >
    > > IT MEANS YOU CAN"T PREDICT THE FUTURE in YOUR DESIGN PHASE!!!!

    >
    > I can predict with absolute 100% certainty that I'd always like my system

    to
    > be able to make me a cheeseburger.
    >
    > > world should you think that a corporate site that has COMPETITORS be

    able
    > to
    > > do it??????

    >
    > Let's say a JP Morgan sees that if they had a nice system that was

    auditable
    > they could open a new credit derivitave market and could make 20 million a
    > day. I think they could afford a good design.



    PERHAPS, BUT you would take 2-3 years to implement it once you finished
    reading your OOP book that you love to be brainwashed with.



    >
    > > Did it ever occur to you that as the web site gets older, it will get

    more
    > features
    >
    > Is that a trick question?
    >
    > > and more requirements that will NEVER be designed for in the DESIGN
    > > PHASE of OOP n-Tier methodology?

    >
    > Totally incorrect. Let's just take a simple example of a customer
    > maintenance screen that you may want to add another field too. Good design
    > leads to flexibility and understandability wether it's oo design or
    > whatever. Poor design leads to less flexibility. In a way I have to agree
    > that the multi-tier design may be seen somewhat as a limitation of MS.
    > Specifically that you might need to take a logical layer and move it to a
    > physical layer on a different machine for performance reasons. Maybe a
    > talking point would be using a Sun/Oracle system instead. No design is
    > perfect because the world is not perfect (possibly with the exception of

    my
    > world, hopefully I'll get to go out rollerblading down to West Broadway
    > Soho, 41 degrees and sunny in the Big Apple).



    No design is PERFECT!!!! DUHHHHHH!!!!
    So why do you OOP NITWITS try to design with the same UN-FLEXIBLE OOP n-TIER
    architecture AGAIN AND AGAIN only to RE-WRITE the WHOLE thing from SCRATCH
    AGAIN AND AGAIN.

    OOP / n-TIER TALKS of FLEXIBILITY but NEVER ACHIEVES it in the REAL WORLD
    because IT has NO IDEA where it should be flexible in the first place.

    That's why YOU are always in RE=WRITE mode, just like DotNetJunkies.com are
    in right now.


    >
    > > WEB SITES ARE NOT LIKE HOUSES or BUILDING CARS where you have a

    BLUEPRINT
    > > (OR OBJECT MODEL) of what to make. What good is your OBJECT MODEL if the

    > KEY
    > > things change all the time?

    >
    > What good is the blueprint of a house if you decide you don't want a
    > basement anymore.



    YES, that right! What good is a blueprint or OBJECT MODEL if the foundation
    changes? And THAT's exactly what happens in the REAL WORLD, the FOUNDATION
    CHANGES ALL THE TIME.


    >
    > > OH, but what about INHERITANCE? Well, doesn't seem to be used that
    > > effectively by the DotNetJunkies site does it? IF they did use

    > Inheritance,
    > > why did they have to do a complete engine redesign?

    >
    > Sounds like they are overusing Inheritance in a similar way people overuse
    > web services. Look at the PageBase module of the Duwamish sample for a

    good
    > way to use Inheritance.



    Duwamish is a complete MESS....OVER COMPLICATED solution for something SO
    SIMPLE.

    >
    > > BUILDING A PRODUCTION WEB SITE IS A LOT HARDER THEN JUST ANSWERING

    > QUESTIONS
    > > ON THE NEWSGROUPS or TEACHING ANY and ALL .NET CLASSES OR EVEN GIVING

    OUT
    > A
    > > PDC SEMINAR....

    >
    > That seems rather obvious. You might want to figure out a bit of list
    > etiquette. The purpose of these lists is learning.



    YOU CAN'T LEARN if you CAN'T ADMIT YOUR MISTAKES.
    THE OOP / n-TIER CULT needs to admit that OOP and N-TIER has SEVERE
    LIMITATIONS and has a POOR TRACK RECORD in the REAL WORLD.



    >
    > > EVEN THE .NET PORTAL and DOTNETNUKE have LOTS AND LOTS of trouble
    > > implementing changes...
    > > Why should you expect it to be any different for an even larger

    e-Commerce
    > > Fortune 500 web site?????

    >
    > So should we feel sorry for dotnetnukes?
    >
    > > THOSE ARE THE FACTS. PERIOD.

    >
    > Yes, you are often stating facts. Does saying period make them more of a
    > fact.




    *PERIOD* helps the BRAINWASHED know where things begin and end as they got
    their heads buried in the OOP books whose AUTHORS also don't have their OWN
    WEB SITE, NOR built it from scratch and maintain it 100% themselves as they
    are TOO busy at conferences speakiing or writing LITE EXAMPLE CODE for their
    books that works here and there.


    >
    > > IF YOU are STILL so BRAINWASHED on the n-TIER / OOP BENEFITS you are in
    > > COMPLETE DENIAL OF WHAT HAPPENS IN THE REAL WORLD.

    >
    > Can you propose a different way to go? I'm sure we would all be facinated

    to
    > see something. Don't confuse corporate, media and MS brainwashing towards
    > their particular products with solid scientific design benefits.
    >
    > > AND THAT"S WHY YOUR JOBS ARE GOING OFFSHORE. BECAUSE OOP AND N-TIER
    > > ARCHITECTURE PRODUCE LOW QUALITY PRODUCTS and IF I am going to get LOW
    > > quality products why should I pay TOP consulting fee prices....????

    >
    > Are you saying that programmers in India don't use oo design?



    I am saying programmers in India do use OO design which produces the same
    CRAPPY INFLEXIBLE software that you get in this country.


    >
    > The other response I saw on the C# list basically completly responded to
    > your posting with three words "Mom and Pop" That seems to be the scenario

    of
    > what you are looking at.
    >
    > You can't expect a young person to be a real world expert on oo design,

    ie:
    > been there, done that, now know how to do it again a bit better now. OO
    > methodology has'nt even been around that long. It's definetly evolving as

    is
    > the speed of computer hardware and how software can take advantage of

    that.
    > One does not learn to be a master programmer by being a master programmer.
    > One learns to be a master programmer by first being a junior programmer,
    > mid-level programmer, senior programmer, junior analyst, mid-level

    analyst,
    > senior analyst, junior business analyst, mid-level business analyst,

    senior
    > business analyst, ..., project leader, project manager, etc.
    >
    > I personally don't really find a problem with the attitude of your

    posting.
    > It was interesting. I believe in throwing a bit of entertainment and
    > personality into our world of computer science. But don't put down people
    > who are trying to help others in what may appear to you to be in their own
    > limited way.
    >
    >
    >
     
    nospam, Nov 8, 2003
    #12
  13. nospam

    nospam Guest

    If you really want to LEARN something, TRY ACTUALLY DOING IT instead of
    sticking your head in some book made by authors who they themselves don't
    produce production code, NOR maintain their web site and see all the
    problems. Tiny pieces of *example* code in a book is a way way different
    then an entire enterprise application that YOU, YOURSELF, PERSONALLY have to
    MAINTAIN.

    There is a BIG difference in an OOP / n-TIER architect who sits around
    telling other programmers what to do and creating his object model diagram
    in Visio or Rational or whatever you want in like UML and USE CASES, AND the
    ACTUAL PROGRAMMER who has to understand all that FAILED OOP crap from some
    arrogant nitwit whose only accomplishment is their resume that is full of
    HOLLOW technical articles or books and a bunch of 3 or 4 letter acronyms.

    PERIOD.



    "Empire City" <> wrote in message
    news:_Parb.56658$...
    > Makes you think about the difference between being ignorant and an
    > ignoramus.
    >
    > I'm not sure why I only read the CSharp group. I never did VB. Did FoxPro
    > until a few years ago, before that was a mini/mainframe person. I like C#,
    > but am still learning it. I guess at some point my learning will get more
    > into the framework and aspnet side.
    >
    > > PS - nospam is an idiot. He occasionally trolls the groups with his
    > > unifromed, ignorant anti-OOP blatherings.

    >
    >
    >
     
    nospam, Nov 8, 2003
    #13
  14. nospam

    nospam Guest

    Well, let's see. Do you frequently change databases to justify n-TIER?

    NO.

    What about the presentation TIER? Do you plan to make it accessible via a
    PDA? IF so, just HOW many PEOPLE are going to sit and read an article on a
    2 inch by 3 inch screen. That's about the size of a business card!!!

    Let's take a LOOK at DEVBUZ.com. Nice site, still with asp. YET, why isn't
    it ported to ASP.NET? It's not easy is it? Have you made some major changes
    or added really new features like what happens in the *corporate* world?

    You may have the business logic to purchase items in your web site; HOWEVER,
    how many sales do you get through a PDA since YOUR BUSINESS LAYER allows you
    to have a different presentation layer???????
    Ask yourself if you OR anyone you know has actually bought something sole
    though the use of PDA.

    Have you had the need to use n-Tier???????????????????????????????????????

    Why would you want to connect this to another database? Is that going to
    bring in more users? Who is going to pay for this and just who is going to
    have the time to do it in the first place? Of what overall benefit $$$ will
    it help you by having TWO different databases of which n-Tier is SUPPOSED
    good for?


    See all of these TIERS, they don't seem to be used do they????? And if they
    are of what benefit have they really been to you? What's the ROI on the
    extra development time?


    What about the Object Model? I don't seen anything that super sophisticated
    in your site that really need it OR is actually being re-used signifcantly.

    What good is the Tier model if the NEXT big thing is a totally new language
    and METHDOLOGY anyway and you have to use InterOp to talk to it? You only
    end up supporting TWO different CODE BASES if you don't port it over. If
    you want a new feature, you hope it has nothing to do with that legacy
    LAYER, but BECAUSE it's a LAYER if runs across the ENTIRE app, so now your
    are STUCK OR you end up splitting it up, VERTICALLY. moving section by
    section over...HMMMMMMM....sounds like what I have been saying OH so LONG
    AGO.

    The solution is K.I.S.S., NOT OOP or n-TIER.






    "William Ryan" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > So what is your alternative to OOP. Be Specific. Every other time I've
    > asked, you've come up with some platitude about simplicity.
    >
    > So let me speak from experience. Check out www.devbuzz.com .(check out

    the
    > Forums on the CF for instance...I'm a moderator there and can speak to how
    > Derrick built it). One guy got that site up and running before ASP.NET

    was
    > even around...and he's built it with, you guessed it OOP. I didn't design
    > it but I actively work on it and support it, and without OOP it wouldn't

    be
    > worth the effort.!
    >
    > Check out my company web site.... www.infoprogroup.com (or
    > https://inforporgroup.com/SecureFTP once again, done with OOP (Flash,
    > ASP.NET, Infragistics and Dart SecureFTP). I can show you two other sites
    > that I've built all by my little self, HIPPA compliant, SSL enabled, using
    > components like Infragistics tools (all OOP components) and Component

    one.
    >
    > Check out www.csharpcorner.com and www.ipaq.net both built off of

    components
    > and OOP (based on the ASP.NET starter kits). While I had nothing to do

    with
    > building either of these...the source is published for free there and one
    > can take it and get a site up and running in under a few hours if you

    have
    > a SQL Server and know IIS at a basic level. OOP at its best.
    >
    > So what would you use...if not OOP? Glue your businesss logic into your

    UI?
    > Be specific about what you would do, or quit trashing the good work that
    > others do.
    >
    > Just b/c dotnetjunkies had ONE problem, that's a failure of OOP? Hmm,

    it's
    > been up and running quite well for a long time. It's also a project that
    > the brilliant developers of that site did as a hobby. Where are your

    URL's?
    > "nospam" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > > COMMENTS INLINE BELOW...............
    > >
    > >
    > > "Empire City" <> wrote in message
    > > news:JQ8rb.126779$...
    > > > You make some interesting points but you seem a bit bitter. Did you

    know
    > > > that there are many excellent brands of decaffinated coffee on the

    > market.
    > > > The site looks very nice to me.
    > > >
    > > > > HOW COME THEY COULDN'T GET IT RIGHT IN THE FIRST PLACE?
    > > >
    > > > Project management 101. The old time, quality, resources triangle.

    > > Subtract
    > > > from any item it and you will need to increase one of the others to

    > > produce
    > > > the same result.
    > > >

    > >
    > > BLAH BLAH BLAH....
    > > DotNetJunkies.com are supposed to be the EXPERTS. Plus you don't even

    have
    > a
    > > web site to even point to.
    > >
    > >
    > > > > WHAT HAPPENED TO THE DESIGN PHASE??????
    > > >
    > > > They probably could'nt afford it. I recently quoted someone $200,000

    for
    > a
    > > > project. They were shocked. Then I told them that was just for the

    > design
    > > > and specification.

    > >
    > >
    > > $200k !!! ha ha ha... no wonder why you don't have a web site.....
    > > I guess it would have take you 2 years to do as well right?
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > >
    > > > > BUT OOP and n-TIER IS SUPPOSED TO FLEXIBLE AND EXTENSIBLE TO ALL

    VAST
    > > > DESIGN
    > > > > CHANGES ISN'T IT?
    > > >
    > > > If written properly. It would seem to me that vast design changes

    would
    > be
    > > > best off with a new design. Did you ever read a book on oo

    programming?
    > >
    > >
    > > DUHHHHHHH......
    > > I guess you could have written it properly then? I don't see your web

    > site,
    > > but then again it takes you 2 years to do one anyway. So, I guess you

    > spend
    > > all your time reading books on OO programming, YET, just can't seem to

    > find
    > > the time to actually produce a web site.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > >
    > > > > IT MEANS YOU CAN"T PREDICT THE FUTURE in YOUR DESIGN PHASE!!!!
    > > >
    > > > I can predict with absolute 100% certainty that I'd always like my

    > system
    > > to
    > > > be able to make me a cheeseburger.
    > > >
    > > > > world should you think that a corporate site that has COMPETITORS be

    > > able
    > > > to
    > > > > do it??????
    > > >
    > > > Let's say a JP Morgan sees that if they had a nice system that was

    > > auditable
    > > > they could open a new credit derivitave market and could make 20

    million
    > a
    > > > day. I think they could afford a good design.

    > >
    > >
    > > PERHAPS, BUT you would take 2-3 years to implement it once you finished
    > > reading your OOP book that you love to be brainwashed with.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > >
    > > > > Did it ever occur to you that as the web site gets older, it will

    get
    > > more
    > > > features
    > > >
    > > > Is that a trick question?
    > > >
    > > > > and more requirements that will NEVER be designed for in the DESIGN
    > > > > PHASE of OOP n-Tier methodology?
    > > >
    > > > Totally incorrect. Let's just take a simple example of a customer
    > > > maintenance screen that you may want to add another field too. Good

    > design
    > > > leads to flexibility and understandability wether it's oo design or
    > > > whatever. Poor design leads to less flexibility. In a way I have to

    > agree
    > > > that the multi-tier design may be seen somewhat as a limitation of MS.
    > > > Specifically that you might need to take a logical layer and move it

    to
    > a
    > > > physical layer on a different machine for performance reasons. Maybe a
    > > > talking point would be using a Sun/Oracle system instead. No design is
    > > > perfect because the world is not perfect (possibly with the exception

    of
    > > my
    > > > world, hopefully I'll get to go out rollerblading down to West

    Broadway
    > > > Soho, 41 degrees and sunny in the Big Apple).

    > >
    > >
    > > No design is PERFECT!!!! DUHHHHHH!!!!
    > > So why do you OOP NITWITS try to design with the same UN-FLEXIBLE OOP

    > n-TIER
    > > architecture AGAIN AND AGAIN only to RE-WRITE the WHOLE thing from

    SCRATCH
    > > AGAIN AND AGAIN.
    > >
    > > OOP / n-TIER TALKS of FLEXIBILITY but NEVER ACHIEVES it in the REAL

    WORLD
    > > because IT has NO IDEA where it should be flexible in the first place.
    > >
    > > That's why YOU are always in RE=WRITE mode, just like DotNetJunkies.com

    > are
    > > in right now.
    > >
    > >
    > > >
    > > > > WEB SITES ARE NOT LIKE HOUSES or BUILDING CARS where you have a

    > > BLUEPRINT
    > > > > (OR OBJECT MODEL) of what to make. What good is your OBJECT MODEL if

    > the
    > > > KEY
    > > > > things change all the time?
    > > >
    > > > What good is the blueprint of a house if you decide you don't want a
    > > > basement anymore.

    > >
    > >
    > > YES, that right! What good is a blueprint or OBJECT MODEL if the

    > foundation
    > > changes? And THAT's exactly what happens in the REAL WORLD, the

    > FOUNDATION
    > > CHANGES ALL THE TIME.
    > >
    > >
    > > >
    > > > > OH, but what about INHERITANCE? Well, doesn't seem to be used that
    > > > > effectively by the DotNetJunkies site does it? IF they did use
    > > > Inheritance,
    > > > > why did they have to do a complete engine redesign?
    > > >
    > > > Sounds like they are overusing Inheritance in a similar way people

    > overuse
    > > > web services. Look at the PageBase module of the Duwamish sample for a

    > > good
    > > > way to use Inheritance.

    > >
    > >
    > > Duwamish is a complete MESS....OVER COMPLICATED solution for something

    SO
    > > SIMPLE.
    > >
    > > >
    > > > > BUILDING A PRODUCTION WEB SITE IS A LOT HARDER THEN JUST ANSWERING
    > > > QUESTIONS
    > > > > ON THE NEWSGROUPS or TEACHING ANY and ALL .NET CLASSES OR EVEN

    GIVING
    > > OUT
    > > > A
    > > > > PDC SEMINAR....
    > > >
    > > > That seems rather obvious. You might want to figure out a bit of list
    > > > etiquette. The purpose of these lists is learning.

    > >
    > >
    > > YOU CAN'T LEARN if you CAN'T ADMIT YOUR MISTAKES.
    > > THE OOP / n-TIER CULT needs to admit that OOP and N-TIER has SEVERE
    > > LIMITATIONS and has a POOR TRACK RECORD in the REAL WORLD.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > >
    > > > > EVEN THE .NET PORTAL and DOTNETNUKE have LOTS AND LOTS of trouble
    > > > > implementing changes...
    > > > > Why should you expect it to be any different for an even larger

    > > e-Commerce
    > > > > Fortune 500 web site?????
    > > >
    > > > So should we feel sorry for dotnetnukes?
    > > >
    > > > > THOSE ARE THE FACTS. PERIOD.
    > > >
    > > > Yes, you are often stating facts. Does saying period make them more of

    a
    > > > fact.

    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > *PERIOD* helps the BRAINWASHED know where things begin and end as they

    got
    > > their heads buried in the OOP books whose AUTHORS also don't have their

    > OWN
    > > WEB SITE, NOR built it from scratch and maintain it 100% themselves as

    > they
    > > are TOO busy at conferences speakiing or writing LITE EXAMPLE CODE for

    > their
    > > books that works here and there.
    > >
    > >
    > > >
    > > > > IF YOU are STILL so BRAINWASHED on the n-TIER / OOP BENEFITS you are

    > in
    > > > > COMPLETE DENIAL OF WHAT HAPPENS IN THE REAL WORLD.
    > > >
    > > > Can you propose a different way to go? I'm sure we would all be

    > facinated
    > > to
    > > > see something. Don't confuse corporate, media and MS brainwashing

    > towards
    > > > their particular products with solid scientific design benefits.
    > > >
    > > > > AND THAT"S WHY YOUR JOBS ARE GOING OFFSHORE. BECAUSE OOP AND N-TIER
    > > > > ARCHITECTURE PRODUCE LOW QUALITY PRODUCTS and IF I am going to get

    LOW
    > > > > quality products why should I pay TOP consulting fee prices....????
    > > >
    > > > Are you saying that programmers in India don't use oo design?

    > >
    > >
    > > I am saying programmers in India do use OO design which produces the

    same
    > > CRAPPY INFLEXIBLE software that you get in this country.
    > >
    > >
    > > >
    > > > The other response I saw on the C# list basically completly responded

    to
    > > > your posting with three words "Mom and Pop" That seems to be the

    > scenario
    > > of
    > > > what you are looking at.
    > > >
    > > > You can't expect a young person to be a real world expert on oo

    design,
    > > ie:
    > > > been there, done that, now know how to do it again a bit better now.

    OO
    > > > methodology has'nt even been around that long. It's definetly evolving

    > as
    > > is
    > > > the speed of computer hardware and how software can take advantage of

    > > that.
    > > > One does not learn to be a master programmer by being a master

    > programmer.
    > > > One learns to be a master programmer by first being a junior

    programmer,
    > > > mid-level programmer, senior programmer, junior analyst, mid-level

    > > analyst,
    > > > senior analyst, junior business analyst, mid-level business analyst,

    > > senior
    > > > business analyst, ..., project leader, project manager, etc.
    > > >
    > > > I personally don't really find a problem with the attitude of your

    > > posting.
    > > > It was interesting. I believe in throwing a bit of entertainment and
    > > > personality into our world of computer science. But don't put down

    > people
    > > > who are trying to help others in what may appear to you to be in their

    > own
    > > > limited way.
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >

    > >
    > >

    >
    >
     
    nospam, Nov 8, 2003
    #14
  15. nospam

    nospam Guest

    MORE..... Re: Another FAILED n-Tier / OOP Web project.......

    I need to add some more......

    MORE COMMENTS INLINE BELOW


    "William Ryan" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Check out my company web site.... www.infoprogroup.com (or
    > https://inforporgroup.com/SecureFTP once again, done with OOP (Flash,
    > ASP.NET, Infragistics and Dart SecureFTP). I can show you two other sites
    > that I've built all by my little self, HIPPA compliant, SSL enabled, using
    > components like Infragistics tools (all OOP components) and Component

    one.




    Nice and dandy, now what about performance? what about reliability?
    Say if someone needs to come in later and add a new feature?

    Do you have the SOURCE code to the Component One and Infragistics?

    You are calling all of these OBJECTS, your code could be SLOWER. But what
    if they have a new version of their products and you implement them. Just
    because you can have different versions running side by side doesn't make
    maintenance easier. Now you have TWO code bases again and NOW you have to
    remember which is which. .....this means LESS RELIABILITY and MORE HASSLE...

    BUT OF COURSE, you didn't build it from scratch and pretty much bought
    someone else's product, so how would you even know anything about OOP or
    n-TIER in the first place as you REALLY didn't do the coding. But if you
    are recommending people to BUY other people's stuff that fine.

    Performance, reliability, customization, maintenance are totally different
    if you have to support the FULL code.



    > So what would you use...if not OOP? Glue your businesss logic into your

    UI?
    > Be specific about what you would do, or quit trashing the good work that
    > others do.
    >
    > Just b/c dotnetjunkies had ONE problem, that's a failure of OOP? Hmm,

    it's
    > been up and running quite well for a long time. It's also a project that
    > the brilliant developers of that site did as a hobby. Where are your

    URL's?


    *TWO POINTS*
    (1) IF THESE DEVELOPERS were so BRILLIANT, why do they need a COMPLETE
    RE-WRITE of their so-called HOBBY code? Shouldn't they have forseen this?
    AH, BUT you are completely wrong in this respect. It has NEVER, EVER a
    HOBBY project and it was serious from the beginning as evidenced by the
    books that they want to self-promote from the very beginning.

    (2) IF they are so brilliant, then it should have taken them very little
    time to do it the right way with the OOP / n-Tier way.



    K.I.S.S. has always worked. OOP has a 50/50 gamble at best
     
    nospam, Nov 8, 2003
    #15
  16. nospam

    Bob Lehmann Guest

    Sorry, I was ribbing you about the 3 posts with the same message - note the
    smiley. No offense intended.

    Bob Lehmann

    "Empire City" <> wrote in message
    news:_Parb.56658$...
    > Makes you think about the difference between being ignorant and an
    > ignoramus.
    >
    > I'm not sure why I only read the CSharp group. I never did VB. Did FoxPro
    > until a few years ago, before that was a mini/mainframe person. I like C#,
    > but am still learning it. I guess at some point my learning will get more
    > into the framework and aspnet side.
    >
    > > PS - nospam is an idiot. He occasionally trolls the groups with his
    > > unifromed, ignorant anti-OOP blatherings.

    >
    >
    >
     
    Bob Lehmann, Nov 8, 2003
    #16
  17. nospam

    William Ryan Guest

    So what is your alternative to OOP. Be Specific. Every other time I've
    asked, you've come up with some platitude about simplicity.

    So let me speak from experience. Check out www.devbuzz.com .(check out the
    Forums on the CF for instance...I'm a moderator there and can speak to how
    Derrick built it). One guy got that site up and running before ASP.NET was
    even around...and he's built it with, you guessed it OOP. I didn't design
    it but I actively work on it and support it, and without OOP it wouldn't be
    worth the effort.!

    Check out my company web site.... www.infoprogroup.com (or
    https://inforporgroup.com/SecureFTP once again, done with OOP (Flash,
    ASP.NET, Infragistics and Dart SecureFTP). I can show you two other sites
    that I've built all by my little self, HIPPA compliant, SSL enabled, using
    components like Infragistics tools (all OOP components) and Component one.

    Check out www.csharpcorner.com and www.ipaq.net both built off of components
    and OOP (based on the ASP.NET starter kits). While I had nothing to do with
    building either of these...the source is published for free there and one
    can take it and get a site up and running in under a few hours if you have
    a SQL Server and know IIS at a basic level. OOP at its best.

    So what would you use...if not OOP? Glue your businesss logic into your UI?
    Be specific about what you would do, or quit trashing the good work that
    others do.

    Just b/c dotnetjunkies had ONE problem, that's a failure of OOP? Hmm, it's
    been up and running quite well for a long time. It's also a project that
    the brilliant developers of that site did as a hobby. Where are your URL's?
    "nospam" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > COMMENTS INLINE BELOW...............
    >
    >
    > "Empire City" <> wrote in message
    > news:JQ8rb.126779$...
    > > You make some interesting points but you seem a bit bitter. Did you know
    > > that there are many excellent brands of decaffinated coffee on the

    market.
    > > The site looks very nice to me.
    > >
    > > > HOW COME THEY COULDN'T GET IT RIGHT IN THE FIRST PLACE?

    > >
    > > Project management 101. The old time, quality, resources triangle.

    > Subtract
    > > from any item it and you will need to increase one of the others to

    > produce
    > > the same result.
    > >

    >
    > BLAH BLAH BLAH....
    > DotNetJunkies.com are supposed to be the EXPERTS. Plus you don't even have

    a
    > web site to even point to.
    >
    >
    > > > WHAT HAPPENED TO THE DESIGN PHASE??????

    > >
    > > They probably could'nt afford it. I recently quoted someone $200,000 for

    a
    > > project. They were shocked. Then I told them that was just for the

    design
    > > and specification.

    >
    >
    > $200k !!! ha ha ha... no wonder why you don't have a web site.....
    > I guess it would have take you 2 years to do as well right?
    >
    >
    >
    > >
    > > > BUT OOP and n-TIER IS SUPPOSED TO FLEXIBLE AND EXTENSIBLE TO ALL VAST

    > > DESIGN
    > > > CHANGES ISN'T IT?

    > >
    > > If written properly. It would seem to me that vast design changes would

    be
    > > best off with a new design. Did you ever read a book on oo programming?

    >
    >
    > DUHHHHHHH......
    > I guess you could have written it properly then? I don't see your web

    site,
    > but then again it takes you 2 years to do one anyway. So, I guess you

    spend
    > all your time reading books on OO programming, YET, just can't seem to

    find
    > the time to actually produce a web site.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > >
    > > > IT MEANS YOU CAN"T PREDICT THE FUTURE in YOUR DESIGN PHASE!!!!

    > >
    > > I can predict with absolute 100% certainty that I'd always like my

    system
    > to
    > > be able to make me a cheeseburger.
    > >
    > > > world should you think that a corporate site that has COMPETITORS be

    > able
    > > to
    > > > do it??????

    > >
    > > Let's say a JP Morgan sees that if they had a nice system that was

    > auditable
    > > they could open a new credit derivitave market and could make 20 million

    a
    > > day. I think they could afford a good design.

    >
    >
    > PERHAPS, BUT you would take 2-3 years to implement it once you finished
    > reading your OOP book that you love to be brainwashed with.
    >
    >
    >
    > >
    > > > Did it ever occur to you that as the web site gets older, it will get

    > more
    > > features
    > >
    > > Is that a trick question?
    > >
    > > > and more requirements that will NEVER be designed for in the DESIGN
    > > > PHASE of OOP n-Tier methodology?

    > >
    > > Totally incorrect. Let's just take a simple example of a customer
    > > maintenance screen that you may want to add another field too. Good

    design
    > > leads to flexibility and understandability wether it's oo design or
    > > whatever. Poor design leads to less flexibility. In a way I have to

    agree
    > > that the multi-tier design may be seen somewhat as a limitation of MS.
    > > Specifically that you might need to take a logical layer and move it to

    a
    > > physical layer on a different machine for performance reasons. Maybe a
    > > talking point would be using a Sun/Oracle system instead. No design is
    > > perfect because the world is not perfect (possibly with the exception of

    > my
    > > world, hopefully I'll get to go out rollerblading down to West Broadway
    > > Soho, 41 degrees and sunny in the Big Apple).

    >
    >
    > No design is PERFECT!!!! DUHHHHHH!!!!
    > So why do you OOP NITWITS try to design with the same UN-FLEXIBLE OOP

    n-TIER
    > architecture AGAIN AND AGAIN only to RE-WRITE the WHOLE thing from SCRATCH
    > AGAIN AND AGAIN.
    >
    > OOP / n-TIER TALKS of FLEXIBILITY but NEVER ACHIEVES it in the REAL WORLD
    > because IT has NO IDEA where it should be flexible in the first place.
    >
    > That's why YOU are always in RE=WRITE mode, just like DotNetJunkies.com

    are
    > in right now.
    >
    >
    > >
    > > > WEB SITES ARE NOT LIKE HOUSES or BUILDING CARS where you have a

    > BLUEPRINT
    > > > (OR OBJECT MODEL) of what to make. What good is your OBJECT MODEL if

    the
    > > KEY
    > > > things change all the time?

    > >
    > > What good is the blueprint of a house if you decide you don't want a
    > > basement anymore.

    >
    >
    > YES, that right! What good is a blueprint or OBJECT MODEL if the

    foundation
    > changes? And THAT's exactly what happens in the REAL WORLD, the

    FOUNDATION
    > CHANGES ALL THE TIME.
    >
    >
    > >
    > > > OH, but what about INHERITANCE? Well, doesn't seem to be used that
    > > > effectively by the DotNetJunkies site does it? IF they did use

    > > Inheritance,
    > > > why did they have to do a complete engine redesign?

    > >
    > > Sounds like they are overusing Inheritance in a similar way people

    overuse
    > > web services. Look at the PageBase module of the Duwamish sample for a

    > good
    > > way to use Inheritance.

    >
    >
    > Duwamish is a complete MESS....OVER COMPLICATED solution for something SO
    > SIMPLE.
    >
    > >
    > > > BUILDING A PRODUCTION WEB SITE IS A LOT HARDER THEN JUST ANSWERING

    > > QUESTIONS
    > > > ON THE NEWSGROUPS or TEACHING ANY and ALL .NET CLASSES OR EVEN GIVING

    > OUT
    > > A
    > > > PDC SEMINAR....

    > >
    > > That seems rather obvious. You might want to figure out a bit of list
    > > etiquette. The purpose of these lists is learning.

    >
    >
    > YOU CAN'T LEARN if you CAN'T ADMIT YOUR MISTAKES.
    > THE OOP / n-TIER CULT needs to admit that OOP and N-TIER has SEVERE
    > LIMITATIONS and has a POOR TRACK RECORD in the REAL WORLD.
    >
    >
    >
    > >
    > > > EVEN THE .NET PORTAL and DOTNETNUKE have LOTS AND LOTS of trouble
    > > > implementing changes...
    > > > Why should you expect it to be any different for an even larger

    > e-Commerce
    > > > Fortune 500 web site?????

    > >
    > > So should we feel sorry for dotnetnukes?
    > >
    > > > THOSE ARE THE FACTS. PERIOD.

    > >
    > > Yes, you are often stating facts. Does saying period make them more of a
    > > fact.

    >
    >
    >
    > *PERIOD* helps the BRAINWASHED know where things begin and end as they got
    > their heads buried in the OOP books whose AUTHORS also don't have their

    OWN
    > WEB SITE, NOR built it from scratch and maintain it 100% themselves as

    they
    > are TOO busy at conferences speakiing or writing LITE EXAMPLE CODE for

    their
    > books that works here and there.
    >
    >
    > >
    > > > IF YOU are STILL so BRAINWASHED on the n-TIER / OOP BENEFITS you are

    in
    > > > COMPLETE DENIAL OF WHAT HAPPENS IN THE REAL WORLD.

    > >
    > > Can you propose a different way to go? I'm sure we would all be

    facinated
    > to
    > > see something. Don't confuse corporate, media and MS brainwashing

    towards
    > > their particular products with solid scientific design benefits.
    > >
    > > > AND THAT"S WHY YOUR JOBS ARE GOING OFFSHORE. BECAUSE OOP AND N-TIER
    > > > ARCHITECTURE PRODUCE LOW QUALITY PRODUCTS and IF I am going to get LOW
    > > > quality products why should I pay TOP consulting fee prices....????

    > >
    > > Are you saying that programmers in India don't use oo design?

    >
    >
    > I am saying programmers in India do use OO design which produces the same
    > CRAPPY INFLEXIBLE software that you get in this country.
    >
    >
    > >
    > > The other response I saw on the C# list basically completly responded to
    > > your posting with three words "Mom and Pop" That seems to be the

    scenario
    > of
    > > what you are looking at.
    > >
    > > You can't expect a young person to be a real world expert on oo design,

    > ie:
    > > been there, done that, now know how to do it again a bit better now. OO
    > > methodology has'nt even been around that long. It's definetly evolving

    as
    > is
    > > the speed of computer hardware and how software can take advantage of

    > that.
    > > One does not learn to be a master programmer by being a master

    programmer.
    > > One learns to be a master programmer by first being a junior programmer,
    > > mid-level programmer, senior programmer, junior analyst, mid-level

    > analyst,
    > > senior analyst, junior business analyst, mid-level business analyst,

    > senior
    > > business analyst, ..., project leader, project manager, etc.
    > >
    > > I personally don't really find a problem with the attitude of your

    > posting.
    > > It was interesting. I believe in throwing a bit of entertainment and
    > > personality into our world of computer science. But don't put down

    people
    > > who are trying to help others in what may appear to you to be in their

    own
    > > limited way.
    > >
    > >
    > >

    >
    >
     
    William Ryan, Nov 8, 2003
    #17
  18. nospam

    nospam Guest

    Maybe not comma delimited files....but let's look at the broken and crappy
    Windows Registry.

    Win.ini files were doing quite nicely. Now you got this huge and
    UN-MAINTAINABLE registry that needs to be constantly backed up as it only
    get bigger and more screwed up and your can't CLEAN it anyway.

    You can't move your programs and these NEW programs from Microsoft had to
    create the SPECIAL programs to more your settings around. BEFORE, it was a
    simple COPY and PASTE COMMAND to switch drives or computers.

    What does this mean? LOWER, MUCH LOWER REliability. Higher maintenance.
    Single point of failure and ATTACK for viruses.

    Look at all these WORKAROUNDS Microsoft had to do and STILL has to do for
    it's VS.NET and other programs just to move your setting to another
    computer.

    All this pain and misery for a little used feature(Registry) of multiple
    users on your machine WHICH could have be done in a better and far more
    reliable way.


    And GUESS what, VS.NET Whidbey is finally starting to realize this
    SIMPLICITY! No extraneous files when you create a new project. and with
    ..NET it is COPY and PASTE simplicity when moving projects....WOW!!! HOW
    REVOLUTIONARY!!!


    K.I.S.S. is the architecture that has proven itself...not OOP / n-Tier which
    has more FAR FAR more failures than successes. Oh, but of course, the
    elitist OOP few has to blame the programmer for these failures as these
    SO-CALLED BOOK AUTHORS have a BOOK that SAYS OOP is the WAY. I guess having
    a BOOK is the SUPREME validation as opposed to a REAL WEB SITE...but of
    course these BOOK AUTHORS have never, from scratch produced a full
    production level web site anyway as they spend all their time selling and
    writing books and tiny example code and snippets.







    "Fergus Cooney" <> wrote in message
    news:e%...
    > Hi Bill,
    >
    > || and hell, use Comma Separated Text files for your database.
    >
    > ROFL.
    >
    > Regards,
    > Fergus
    >
    >
     
    nospam, Nov 8, 2003
    #18
  19. Hi Bill,

    || and hell, use Comma Separated Text files for your database.

    ROFL.

    Regards,
    Fergus
     
    Fergus Cooney, Nov 9, 2003
    #19
  20. Hi nospam,

    || TRY ACTUALLY DOING IT instead of sticking your
    || head in some book made by authors who they themselves
    || don't roduce production code

    I presume, then, that you talk from no small amount of experience.
    Let us see, please, your KISS website - the one that offers all the
    features yet could be persuaded to offer that and more in the twinkle
    of a nospam thought.

    What's your website, nospam?
    We are keen to bow down
    before this altar.

    Regards,
    Fergus
     
    Fergus Cooney, Nov 9, 2003
    #20
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