Any good reason not to use Flash?

[Killfile victim #847238]

I never bothered to install any Flash plugin, hoping year after year
that it would eventually just go away.

Are there any cogent arguments against the use of Flash?

Vince thought it was a bad idea to use Mr. Funk (n. Terry) after a
while as well.

 

[kchayka]

blame bad designers, not Flash.

When the Flash player provides a usable means for the *user* to set a
readable text size, I'll stop bashing it. Lack of user controls is a
serious deficiency of Flash.

Again, don't forget that Flash is 508 compliant. Accessibility is not an
issue.

Only if you're blind, I guess... :-\

 

[Do Not Mind Me]

Who is going to take advice from a site as ugly as that?

Seriously, whoever made that page must be color blind.

 

[\The Tactician\ Luke Michaels]

I run into a lot of websites that are primarily about music and have
Flash-only navigation. Blind people have as much interest in music as
the rest of us, don't you think? Probably more, I would guess.

Fair enough.

--
"The Tactician" Luke Michaels
Outsmarting the wiliest wrestling legends since 2000

Anointed - Are you on fire for GOD, Scotty?

Scotty (Lowtax) - YES SIR I AM ON FIRE

 

[\The Tactician\ Luke Michaels]

Followup set to alt.html, the only relevant group.

Glenn Knickerbocker>:



Even for presenting multimedia only, Flash navigation is not a good
idea. It distracts from the content, wastes bandwidth that your
multimedia can use, and indeed creates navigation problems.

Numerous usability articles on Flash from useit.com
http://www.google.com/search?q=site:useit.com+Flash

I find this stuff extremely humorous... it all just seems like designers
are scared of going outside fundamental design prinicples for the
purpose of artistic manipulation of the interface.

All I'm saying is, Flash is great if you want to **** with navigation in
ways you can't otherwise, and perhaps such changes in navigation are not
fundamentally 100% efficient but they can be more exciting, more
engaging, and more artistic.

--
"The Tactician" Luke Michaels
Outsmarting the wiliest wrestling legends since 2000

Anointed - Are you on fire for GOD, Scotty?

Scotty (Lowtax) - YES SIR I AM ON FIRE

 

[Jose]

1: Flash is used primarily by advertisers to steal your attention away

Wrong. Opinion, and a bad one.

I'll admit not having taken a scientific survey. But of the websites I
visit, I see a lot of "get the plugin" placeholders, and they all occupy
spaces normally reserved for ads. Flash ads (when I am forced to see
them such as on library computers) are animtated, jumpy, and steal my
attention, making it harder to do what I came to do.

Even if less than 50% of flash is advertising, the % that is is annoying
enough.

Conceded. But again, it's only bad if it's designed and executed poorly.

No, it's a problem every time one doesn't want to see flash content, for
whatever reason. See (1) above.

Again, flash isn't used by "advertisers"...

Flash most certainly =is= used by advertisers. Other legitimate
entities use it also, but it's the advertisers that get my goat.

You blame the designers for the shortcomings I attribute to flash. I'll
stipulate that. There is so much bad flash design that I don't want it
on my system.

Flash *asks* you if it can use your microphone.

It never asks me, and I find that after some flash presentations my
microphone is on.

Aha, so this is REALLY what's it's about isn't it? The Flash *you've seen*
was bad, so all of Flash is bad?

I can only judge based on what I've seen. What makes Flash bad is that
I can't choose to not see it, at the browser level. If there were a
checkbox in browser preferences to filter out flash content I'd go a lot
easier on it. But we're up to version 7 and no such button appears. Hmmm.

Should we get rid of Photoshop because people use it incorrectly or
"badly"?

No, because the impact of bad photoshop is not the same as the impact of
bad Flash... and I would argue that the flash used by advertisers is not
"bad" - it accomplishes what they want - theft of attention. It's just
not what =I= want when I go on the web. Alas, legitimate uses of flash
suffer.

=That= is what it's all about.

Just because people see bad Flash design doesn't mean the product is in any
way faulty.

Flash is faulty because it doesn't have an OFF button on the browser.
And this isn't a bug, it's a feature.

Should we get rid of Dreamweaver, Front Page, and Go Live
because sometimes morons get their hands on them and create atrocious pages?

We should get rid of Front Page. It's faulty in a different way.

Use [flash] well, and the results are
outstanding. Use it poorly and the results are predictable.

True. But using it poorly is so prevalent I have ripped it out of my
system.

Jose

 

[Otto Bahn]

Fair enough.

I don't think stereotyping blind people is very fair,
but then again, I'm not blind.

--oTTo--

 

[Jose]

I pity people like this. While technology passes them by...

Not all technology is good. It is neutral. But the uses to which the
technology gets put affect people's response to it.

I don't want to be taken over by advertisers. Flash is the primary way
advertisers take me over. I won't have it.

Jose

 

[Jose]

[flash] can with Firefox, using a little plug-in. I've got that installed

on bothe my computers, and I never see Flash if I don't want to.

I also know how to do it (I do it by hand), but most users don't, which
is what leads to the gold rush by advertisers.

Jose
r.s.pro-wrestling and a.r.kibology trimmed... I remembered to actually
do it this time.

 

[Luigi Donatello Asero]

[flash] can with Firefox, using a little plug-in. I've got that installed
on bothe my computers, and I never see Flash if I don't want to.

I also know how to do it (I do it by hand), but most users don't, which
is what leads to the gold rush by advertisers.

Jose

Do you mean that you write the code for Flash by hand?
What about Java?

 

[Jose]

I also know how to do it (I do it by hand), but most users don't, which

Do you mean that you write the code for Flash by hand?
What about Java?

No, I meant that I defeat flash in hand to hand combat instead of
relying on some software add-on. I have found one critical file that I
can rename in each of my browsers, that convinces the website that I
don't have flash installed. Then I'm just faced with that silly icon
rather than jumpy jittery things trying to get me to buy something.

I don't write flash at all. I have no doubt that it's valuable in some
situations (alas, it's used in many situations where it's not valuable,
at least not to the viewer). I do do C but not Java.

Jose

 

[Rob McAninch]

Jose>:

If there were a
checkbox in browser preferences to filter out flash content I'd go a lot
easier on it. But we're up to version 7 and no such button appears. Hmmm.

Version 8, actually but I haven't upgraded yet. Waiting to make sure
the Flash applications I use are ok with version 8 Maybe the
added the off button?

 

[Chaddy2222]

I find this stuff extremely humorous... it all just seems like designers
are scared of going outside fundamental design prinicples for the
purpose of artistic manipulation of the interface.

I can tell you that a lot of people wouldn't give a stuff about
"Artistic Manipulation" or what ever you choose too call it.
As a forinstence, I would not go to a car dealers website too look at
buying a car, only to be faced with hard to use navigation and little
round thingies bounceing all over the place.
I would just want too look at what they were celling and maybe get a
price or two.
So in that case, the "Artistic B.S". Is just a waste of time.

All I'm saying is, Flash is great if you want to **** with navigation in
ways you can't otherwise, and perhaps such changes in navigation are not
fundamentally 100% efficient but they can be more exciting, more

engaging, and more artistic.

That's fine for an art site, but not good for anything else.

 

[Chaddy2222]

Man, that's some ugly design you have there! Neat spelling too.

Well. I have since fixed the spelling.
Regarding the design, I actually can't see it that well.
I don't have any site in my left eye at all and only have about 5%
vision in my right.

So why should anyone listen to _that_ site's opinions? It's like Jakob
Nielsen - sometimes he's actually right, but his own site is such a
shambles it devalues any credibility he might have had.

I take it you have not looked at his site that much. I think you will
find that his sucky web design, (if it actually does suck that bad), is
intentional!.

 

[Bryce Utting]

What is this "Netscape" you speak of?

huh? it was the One True Browser, up until the <BLINK> tag came
along.


butting

 

[Rose Marie Holt]

What is this "Netscape" you speak of?

huh? it was the One True Browser, up until the <BLINK> tag came
along.


butting[/QUOTE]

ITYM "Mosaic"

(spitting out hook)

 

[Mark Fergerson]

Vince thought it was a bad idea to use Mr. Funk (n. Terry) after a
while as well.

Vince can be a complete idiot at times.

OTOH Terry's been pretty badly busted up for some years now; he
reminds me of an old war horse that comes stumbling out to the sound of
bugles regardless of the fact that he has only three good legs. Still,
he can outwrestle most of the young bloods on TV these days.


Mark L. Fergerson

 

[Neredbojias]

With neither quill nor qualm, Krusty quothed:

A ridiculous solution to anecdotal bad design. Again, simply because someone
doesn't know how to use Flash certainly in my mind doesn't justify removing
the plug in. That sounds like throwing the baby out with the bath water.

I mean, I don't use Flash extensively, I don't work for Macromedia, but
there certainly is a LOT of misinformation in this thread. It seems like
more people are making emotional responses rather than well thought out
authoritative replies.

Just always remember, Bad designers can create horrible, huge, clunky jpegs
just the same way inexperienced designers who think they're programmers can
create bad Flash. Flash is *advanced*. It's far more advanced than most
"designers" feel comfortable with, and certainly more advanced than any
formal programing training that any designer has ever attended. I think the
problem lies with people who go, "I used Freehand...how hard could Flash
be?" and then proceed to break every convention known to man to create a 2
meg opening slide show on their home pages.

Go to Flashforward.com and look at some of the nominated Flash pieces. Those
are hyper-advanced web applications that are *impossible* to do in any other
technology with the speed and efficiency of development...and again, the
issue of accessibility is simply, "you can do it, people just choose not to,
don't blame Flash for it".

Then using your stated philosophy, there is no rationale for banning
guns...

Nope, I've been zonked by Flash too many times, too. Until they build-
in some kind of stopper or something, you can have it.

 

[Neredbojias]

With neither quill nor qualm, Kevin Scholl quothed:

Erm, just as an aside, Javascript does not have inherent security issues
in and of itself. It's actually remarkably safe. It's when JS is used to
access active-x controls that the problems typically arise.

Hear! Hear! Give that man a cigar!

(Guess you can tell I agree.)

 

[Neredbojias]

With neither quill nor qualm, Otto Bahn quothed:

I don't think stereotyping blind people is very fair,
but then again, I'm not blind.

It may not be fair, but the fact is that blind people just don't see the
light.