Any idea why the following page doesn't display in Safari 1.0 v85?

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Dave Rado, Jan 1, 2004.

  1. Dave Rado

    Dave Rado Guest

    Hi

    I'm told that most of the pages at www.mvps.org/word/ (which I designed)
    don't display in Safari 1.0 v85, although they do display fine in all other
    browsers, and also display fine in earlier versions of Safari.

    I don't have access to a Mac, unfortunately, but wondered whether any html
    expert who does, and who has Safari 1.0 v85, has any idea why Safari won't
    display the pages on the above site, and whether there is any way of getting
    them (for example http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/WordMac/RealIndex.htm) to
    look exactly the same as they currently do in other browsers, while
    displaying correctly in Safari?

    I'd be incredibly grateful if anyone could help.

    Dave
     
    Dave Rado, Jan 1, 2004
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Dave Rado

    brucie Guest

    brucie, Jan 1, 2004
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Dave Rado

    Dave Rado Guest

    The validator throws up a whole load of "errors" for which it provides
    "explanations" that make no sense to me whatsoever. Can you translate them
    into English?

    Cheers

    Dave



    "brucie" <> wrote in message
    news:bt2bvc$2it7e$-berlin.de...
    | in post <news:bt2bni$ke8$>
    | Dave Rado said:
    |
    | > I'm told that most of the pages at www.mvps.org/word/ (which I designed)
    | > don't display in Safari 1.0 v85,
    |
    | http://diveintomark.org/archives/2003/05/05/why_we_wont_help_you.html
    |
    |
    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=h...automatically)&doctype=HTML 4.01 Transitional
    |
    http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/...s.org/word/Content.htm&warning=1&profile=css2
    |
    |
    | --
    | brucie
    | 02/January/2004 09:51:52 am kilo
     
    Dave Rado, Jan 2, 2004
    #3
  4. Dave Rado

    brucie Guest

    in post <news:bt2cb0$fo2$>
    Dave Rado said:

    >|> I'm told that most of the pages at www.mvps.org/word/ (which I designed)
    >|> don't display in Safari 1.0 v85,


    >| http://diveintomark.org/archives/2003/05/05/why_we_wont_help_you.html
    > http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=h...automatically)&doctype=HTML 4.01 Transitional
    > http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/...s.org/word/Content.htm&warning=1&profile=css2


    > The validator throws up a whole load of "errors" for which it provides
    > "explanations" that make no sense to me whatsoever. Can you translate them
    > into English?


    the html is so poor i would recommend starting again. use strict html
    and css.

    please don't toppost

    How am I supposed to post my replies in a newsgroup?:
    http://allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?How_to_post


    --
    brucie
    02/January/2004 10:01:16 am kilo
     
    brucie, Jan 2, 2004
    #4
  5. Dave Rado

    Dave Rado Guest

    I should add that the site is not a commercial one; and that it is
    maintained solely by volunteers. I hope there are people who come to this
    newsgroup who are interested in being helpful.

    Regards

    Dave


    "Dave Rado" <> wrote in message
    news:bt2cb0$fo2$...
    | The validator throws up a whole load of "errors" for which it provides
    | "explanations" that make no sense to me whatsoever. Can you translate them
    | into English?
    |
    | Cheers
    |
    | Dave
    |
    |
    |
    | "brucie" <> wrote in message
    | news:bt2bvc$2it7e$-berlin.de...
    | | in post <news:bt2bni$ke8$>
    | | Dave Rado said:
    | |
    | | > I'm told that most of the pages at www.mvps.org/word/ (which I
    designed)
    | | > don't display in Safari 1.0 v85,
    | |
    | | http://diveintomark.org/archives/2003/05/05/why_we_wont_help_you.html
    | |
    | |
    |
    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=h...automatically)&doctype=HTML 4.01 Transitional
    | |
    |
    http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/...s.org/word/Content.htm&warning=1&profile=css2
    | |
    | |
    | | --
    | | brucie
    | | 02/January/2004 09:51:52 am kilo
    |
    |
     
    Dave Rado, Jan 2, 2004
    #5
  6. Dave Rado

    Dave Rado Guest

    Does anyone else use this newsgroup?



    "brucie" <> wrote in message
    news:bt2cn9$2i7o6$-berlin.de...
    | in post <news:bt2cb0$fo2$>
    | Dave Rado said:
    |
    | >|> I'm told that most of the pages at www.mvps.org/word/ (which I
    designed)
    | >|> don't display in Safari 1.0 v85,
    |
    | >| http://diveintomark.org/archives/2003/05/05/why_we_wont_help_you.html
    | >
    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=h...automatically)&doctype=HTML 4.01 Transitional
    | >
    http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/...s.org/word/Content.htm&warning=1&profile=css2
    |
    | > The validator throws up a whole load of "errors" for which it provides
    | > "explanations" that make no sense to me whatsoever. Can you translate
    them
    | > into English?
    |
    | the html is so poor i would recommend starting again. use strict html
    | and css.
    |
    | please don't toppost
    |
    | How am I supposed to post my replies in a newsgroup?:
    | http://allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?How_to_post
    |
    |
    | --
    | brucie
    | 02/January/2004 10:01:16 am kilo
     
    Dave Rado, Jan 2, 2004
    #6
  7. Dave Rado

    kayodeok Guest

    "Dave Rado" <> wrote in
    news:bt2cb0$fo2$:

    > The validator throws up a whole load of "errors" for which it
    > provides "explanations" that make no sense to me whatsoever. Can
    > you translate them into English?
    >
    > Cheers
    >
    > Dave


    Error 1: The code should be <script type="JavaScript">
    Error 2 - 6: remove the attributes from body and dump them in a css
    file:

    body {margin:0;padding:0;}

    Error 7: remove the height attribute from Table
    Error 8: I have never attempted an image on a website but I don't
    think there is a background attribute for Table so remove it
    Error 9 - 13: You need an alt attribute for your images (that is, a
    brief text describing what they are)
    Error 14- 18: I don't think Marquee exists in html specs, this is an
    ms invention (?) remove everything including the attributes
    Error 19 - 25 are to do with Character Entities, not my strong point,
    beg Brucie to help you out.
    Error 26 to 38 have been discussed above

    The CSS is fairly obvious, you need a unit; px? %? em? but please do
    not use pt

    This site shows what it looks like in Safara (an approximation)
    http://www.danvine.com/icapture/

    I agree with Brucie though, the site should be redesigned from
    scratch.

    --
    Kayode Okeyode
    http://www.kayodeok.co.uk/weblog/
    http://www.kayodeok.btinternet.co.uk/favorites/webdesign.htm
     
    kayodeok, Jan 2, 2004
    #7
  8. Dave Rado wrote:
    > "brucie" <> wrote in message
    > news:bt2cn9$2i7o6$-berlin.de...
    >> in post <news:bt2cb0$fo2$>
    >> Dave Rado said:
    >>
    >>>>> I'm told that most of the pages at www.mvps.org/word/ (which I

    > designed)
    >>>>> don't display in Safari 1.0 v85,

    >>
    >>>> http://diveintomark.org/archives/2003/05/05/why_we_wont_help_you.html
    >>>

    >

    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=h...automatically)&doctype=HTML 4.01 Transitional
    >>>

    >

    http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/...s.org/word/Content.htm&warning=1&profile=css2
    >>
    >>> The validator throws up a whole load of "errors" for which it
    >>> provides "explanations" that make no sense to me whatsoever. Can
    >>> you translate

    > them
    >>> into English?

    >>
    >> the html is so poor i would recommend starting again. use strict html
    >> and css.
    >>
    >> please don't toppost
    >>
    >> How am I supposed to post my replies in a newsgroup?:
    >> http://allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?How_to_post
    >>

    > Does anyone else use this newsgroup?



    Please don't top-post. Use your favourite search engine to find out why.

    Fixing the errors on your page will help you determine whether your problem
    is caused by a markup error or a browser bug.

    --
    William Tasso - http://WilliamTasso.com
     
    William Tasso, Jan 2, 2004
    #8
  9. kayodeok wrote:

    > Error 1: The code should be <script type="JavaScript">


    No it shouldn't, it should be type="text/javascript"

    > Error 9 - 13: You need an alt attribute for your images (that is, a
    > brief text describing what they are)


    No, it should hold brief text that can _replace_ the image if it (the image)
    cannot, for any reason, be displayed.

    --
    David Dorward <http://dorward.me.uk/>
     
    David Dorward, Jan 2, 2004
    #9
  10. Dave Rado

    brucie Guest

    in post <news:bt2cs1$qmo$>
    Dave Rado said:

    >| the html is so poor i would recommend starting again. use strict html
    >| and css.


    > Does anyone else use this newsgroup?


    i have just finished rewriting your page in yummy semantically correct
    strict html and css and it looks wonderful.

    but then i read your other posts and you're still top posting so i'll
    just hit my delete key and you can **** off.

    you cant help people that are too stupid to recognize help when they
    receive it.

    How am I supposed to post my replies in a newsgroup?:
    http://allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?How_to_post

    --
    brucie
    02/January/2004 10:21:08 am kilo
     
    brucie, Jan 2, 2004
    #10
  11. Dave Rado

    kayodeok Guest

    David Dorward <> wrote in
    news:bt2doq$8kt$1$:

    > kayodeok wrote:
    >
    >> Error 1: The code should be <script type="JavaScript">

    >
    > No it shouldn't, it should be type="text/javascript"


    Of course! Thanks for pointing it out, it's past my bed-time...

    >> Error 9 - 13: You need an alt attribute for your images (that
    >> is, a brief text describing what they are)

    >
    > No, it should hold brief text that can _replace_ the image if it
    > (the image) cannot, for any reason, be displayed.


    Same reason as above! Teach me not to post late at night.

    --
    Kayode Okeyode
    http://www.kayodeok.co.uk/weblog/
    http://www.kayodeok.btinternet.co.uk/favorites/webdesign.htm
     
    kayodeok, Jan 2, 2004
    #11
  12. Re: Any idea why the following page doesn't display in Safari 1.0v85?

    Dave Rado wrote:
    > Does anyone else use this newsgroup?


    Do what brucie said. He's right.
     
    Leif K-Brooks, Jan 2, 2004
    #12
  13. Dave Rado

    rf Guest

    "Dave Rado" <> wrote in message
    news:bt2cof$qi4$...
    > I should add that the site is not a commercial one; and that it is
    > maintained solely by volunteers. I hope there are people who come to this
    > newsgroup who are interested in being helpful.


    If a page "does not work in browser X" it is usually because the page
    contains invalid HTML and or CSS. Fix this and report back. There is no
    point in even looking at the HTML or the CSS unless it validates. When it
    does we are left with browser specific bugs, which are usually known.

    If you don't understand the errors the validator is giving you then simply
    attack the first one (errors can cascade).

    Lets look: Error number 1:

    Required attribute "TYPE" not specified.
    <script language="JavaScript">

    Pretty clear to me. You need to specify a type. Look at the specs(*), in
    this particular case, here:
    http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/interact/scripts.html#h-18.2.1
    and you will find
    <script type="text/javascript"> is the way to do it. There are even examples
    in the specs.
    You may even find that language is a deprecated attribute.

    Error number two: There is no attribute "marginheight". This is because it
    is a proprietry attribute invented by some particular browser manufacturer.
    So, simply don't use it. If you want to specify a margin for an element then
    use CSS. The specs(*) are here:
    http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/

    (*) If you have never read the spec before then do so now.

    Cheers
    Richard.
     
    rf, Jan 2, 2004
    #13
  14. In article <bt2cs1$qmo$>,
    says...
    > "brucie" <> wrote in message
    > news:bt2cn9$2i7o6$-berlin.de...
    > | in post <news:bt2cb0$fo2$>
    > | Dave Rado said:
    > |
    > | >|> I'm told that most of the pages at www.mvps.org/word/ (which I
    > designed)
    > | >|> don't display in Safari 1.0 v85,
    > |
    > | >| http://diveintomark.org/archives/2003/05/05/why_we_wont_help_you.html
    > | >
    > http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=h...automatically)&doctype=HTML 4.01 Transitional
    > | >
    > http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/...s.org/word/Content.htm&warning=1&profile=css2
    > |
    > | > The validator throws up a whole load of "errors" for which it provides
    > | > "explanations" that make no sense to me whatsoever. Can you translate
    > them
    > | > into English?
    > |
    > | the html is so poor i would recommend starting again. use strict html
    > | and css.
    > |
    > | please don't toppost
    > |
    > | How am I supposed to post my replies in a newsgroup?:
    > | http://allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?How_to_post


    > Does anyone else use this newsgroup?


    Once again
    http://allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?How_to_post

    Remember - you're the one asking for help.

    If the invalid code is causing problems for Safari users, either
    get your volunteers to produce better code;
    pay someone to fix the code;
    find someone generous enough to fix the code at no charge;
    install some content management software to handle the content;
    forget about Safari.
    The choice is yours.

    19 errors in a 28 line document is pretty good going, though. The first
    thing you need to do is change the DOCTYPE declaration to one that's
    suitable for frames, then you'll only get 24 errors! Why are you using
    an XHTML declaration when you're not using XHTML?

    --
    Hywel I do not eat quiche
    http://hyweljenkins.co.uk/
    http://hyweljenkins.co.uk/mfaq.php
     
    Hywel Jenkins, Jan 2, 2004
    #14
  15. Dave Rado

    Whitecrest Guest

    In article <SJ8Jb.73831$>,
    says...
    > If a page "does not work in browser X" it is usually because the page
    > contains invalid HTML and or CSS...


    Or it contains completely valid html and css, but the browser does not
    know how to handle it.

    > Fix this and report back. There is no
    > point in even looking at the HTML or the CSS unless it validates. When it
    > does we are left with browser specific bugs, which are usually known.


    Validation does nt guarantee that it will work. Validation is a good
    place to start, then after validating, go back and change the code that
    does not work into code that does. (No matter if it validates or not)

    --
    Whitecrest Entertainment
    www.whitecrestent.com
     
    Whitecrest, Jan 2, 2004
    #15
  16. Dave Rado

    Dave Rado Guest

    Hi Brucie

    "brucie" <> wrote in message
    news:bt2dni$2lfco$-berlin.de...
    | in post <news:bt2cs1$qmo$>
    |
    | i have just finished rewriting your page in yummy semantically correct
    | strict html and css and it looks wonderful.
    |
    | but then i read your other posts and you're still top posting so i'll
    | just hit my delete key and you can **** off.
    |
    | you cant help people that are too stupid to recognize help when they
    | receive it.

    If that help is offered with an aggressive tone, and in a way that gives the
    impression of putting the person you are helping down, then IMO you can't be
    surprised if newcomers to your newsgroup are too offended initially to
    recognise it as help. I'm a newsgroup junkie (and an MS MVP), but in the
    newsgroups I frequent the tone is a *lot* more friendly your first couple of
    posts here; and I must admit coming here has been a bit of a culture shock
    for me. And I genuinely did not have the impression from your first couple
    of posts that you had any interest in helping me.

    Hope that helps explain my initial reaction to your posts. Sorry if my
    reaction offended you in turn - put it down to culture-shock.

    In any case, thanks to Kayode's link to http://www.danvine.com/icapture/, I
    have now discovered that the page you parsed displays perfectly in Safari
    (at least in Safari 1.1) and AFAIK it displays perfectly in all other
    browsers; although I don't know for sure whether it displays in Safari 1.0
    v85, as the icapture site only seems to cover Safari 1.1.

    The only pages on the site that *don't* display in Safari 1.1 are the
    navigational ones such as http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/. So if it's a
    coding error that's causing the problem, it's not an error that is on the
    page that you parsed. it's one specific to pages such as
    http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/.

    Regards

    Dave
     
    Dave Rado, Jan 3, 2004
    #16
  17. Dave Rado

    Dave Rado Guest

    Hi Kayode

    "kayodeok" <> wrote in message
    news:Xns94643AF01212news4kayode@130.133.1.4...
    | "Dave Rado" <> wrote in
    | news:bt2cb0$fo2$:

    | Error 1: The code should be <script type="text/javascript>

    See my reply to Richard's post.


    | Error 2 - 6: remove the attributes from body and dump them in a css
    | file:
    |
    | body {margin:0;padding:0;}

    See my reply to Richard's post - as soon as I do that I lose NS4
    compatibility, and NS4 compatibility is critical to me.


    | Error 7: remove the height attribute from Table
    | Error 8: I have never attempted an image on a website but I don't
    | think there is a background attribute for Table so remove it
    | Error 9 - 13: You need an alt attribute for your images (that is, a
    | brief text describing what they are)
    | Error 14- 18: I don't think Marquee exists in html specs, this is an
    | ms invention (?) remove everything including the attributes
    | Error 19 - 25 are to do with Character Entities, not my strong point,
    | beg Brucie to help you out.
    | Error 26 to 38 have been discussed above

    See my latest reply to Brucie - the page you parsed displays perfectly in
    Safari, according to the link you gave me below; so none of the above can be
    relevant to why certain pages such as http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/ don't
    display in Safari 1.1. Also, having re-read the spec, I can see no way to
    achieve the same look that I have created if I followed the above advice. If
    you have time to rewrite me site for me so that it looks exactly the same as
    it does now while being 100% compliant with the css spec, then that would be
    absolutely wonderful; but all I'm actually asking for is some help in
    tracking down why 99% of the pages on the site *do* display perfectly in
    Safari and the other 1%, such as http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/, *don't*.


    | This site shows what it looks like in Safari (an approximation)
    | http://www.danvine.com/icapture/

    Great link, thanks. Although I wish there were one for Safari 1.0 v85 as
    well - that one seems to be only for Safari 1.1.

    Regards

    Dave
     
    Dave Rado, Jan 3, 2004
    #17
  18. Dave Rado

    Dave Rado Guest

    Hi Richard

    "rf" <> wrote in message
    news:SJ8Jb.73831$...

    | Lets look: Error number 1:
    |
    | Required attribute "TYPE" not specified.
    | <script language="JavaScript">
    |
    | Pretty clear to me. You need to specify a type. Look at the specs(*), in
    | this particular case, here:
    | http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/interact/scripts.html#h-18.2.1
    | and you will find
    | <script type="text/javascript"> is the way to do it.

    OK, thanks - I've changed <script language="JavaScript"> to <script
    type="text/javascript"> throughout the site now; although I'm confused about
    where the former syntax could have come from, given what you say - I
    certainly wouldn't have made it up, so I must have got it from _somewhere_;
    and it seems to be recognised by all browsers - even by Safari.


    | Error number two: There is no attribute "marginheight". This is because it
    | is a proprietary attribute invented by some particular browser
    | manufacturer.

    By Netscape, actually. Netscape 4.x doesn't recognise:
    <Body topmargin="0" leftmargin="0">

    .... and nor does it recognise:
    body {margin:0;padding:0}.

    Safari (and all other browsers I've tested other than Netscape) simply
    ignore the marginheight statement - they display the pages identically
    whether it's present or not; so I don't see what harm it can be doing.
    Having said that, I'd be happy to remove the marginheight statement *if* I
    could retain NS4 compatibility, but the NS4 compatibility is critical to me

    To illustrate the point, http://www.mvps.org/word//MainMenu.htm displays
    correctly in all browsers that I've tested it with, *including Safari* and
    including NS4; whereas http://localhost/wordmvp/MainMenuTest.htm, which
    lacks the marginheight statement, displays correctly in all browsers
    *except* for NS4; and as I say, NS4-compatibility is critical.

    In any case, given that marginheight doesn't cause Safari any problems, it's
    not germane to my original issue, which was: why some pages on the site fail
    to display in Safari, despite the fact that other pages on the site display
    perfectly in Safari, and all pages on the site display perfectly on all
    browsers I know of other than Safari.

    Incidentally, the pages on my site that you looked at *do* display correctly
    in Safari, at least in Safari 1.1 - as, in fact, do most pages on the site,
    contrary to the information I was given by my original complainant - many
    thanks to Kayode for his link to http://www.danvine.com/icapture/; although
    I don't know for sure whether they display in Safari 1.0 v85, as the
    icapture site only seems to cover Safari 1.1.

    The only pages on the site that *don't* display in Safari 1.1 are the
    navigational ones such as http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/.


    | So, simply don't use it. If you want to specify a margin for an element
    | then use CSS. The specs(*) are here:
    | http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/

    Thanks for the link. But (a) the spec doesn't explain how to achieve NS4
    compatibility without breaking their rules, and (b) it doesn't explain why
    almost all the pages on my site display perfectly in all browsers, whereas
    http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/ doesn't display in Safari at all, although it
    displays correctly in all other browsers. So I'm no further forward with
    getting to the bottom of this, really ...

    Regards

    Dave
     
    Dave Rado, Jan 3, 2004
    #18
  19. Dave Rado wrote:

    > OK, thanks - I've changed <script language="JavaScript"> to <script
    > type="text/javascript"> throughout the site now; although I'm confused
    > about where the former syntax could have come from, given what you say - I
    > certainly wouldn't have made it up, so I must have got it from
    > _somewhere_; and it seems to be recognised by all browsers - even by
    > Safari.


    Its the HTML 3.2 syntax. It was obsoleted by HTML 4.x in 1996.

    --
    David Dorward <http://dorward.me.uk/>
     
    David Dorward, Jan 3, 2004
    #19
  20. Dave Rado

    Dave Rado Guest

    Hi Hywel

    "Hywel Jenkins" <> wrote in message
    news:...

    | The first
    | thing you need to do is change the DOCTYPE declaration to one that's
    | suitable for frames

    Do you know what the declaration should say?

    Regards

    Dave
     
    Dave Rado, Jan 3, 2004
    #20
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