asp, php or java, .net or what?

Discussion in 'HTML' started by windandwaves, Aug 25, 2005.

  1. windandwaves

    windandwaves Guest

    Hi Gurus

    I know this is an html group, but I am sure many of you do web development
    work that goes beyond html.

    I was wondering what you think works best.
    - PHP
    - Java something
    - .net
    - Mysql vs SQL vs Postgres (or whatever these databases are called)
    - etc...

    I only do php and mysql, but recently someone told me that these are
    hopelessly out of date compared to, for example, dot.net.

    Personally, I believe that it does not matter, that we will never use all
    the potential anyway and that it is more important to know something well
    and your actual ideas, the the languages are much of a muchness...

    What do you think?

    - Nicolaas
     
    windandwaves, Aug 25, 2005
    #1
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  2. In article <bspPe.5836$>,
    says...
    > Hi Gurus
    >
    > I know this is an html group, but I am sure many of you do web development
    > work that goes beyond html.
    >
    > I was wondering what you think works best.
    > - PHP
    > - Java something
    > - .net
    > - Mysql vs SQL vs Postgres (or whatever these databases are called)
    > - etc...
    >
    > I only do php and mysql, but recently someone told me that these are
    > hopelessly out of date compared to, for example, dot.net.
    >
    > Personally, I believe that it does not matter, that we will never use all
    > the potential anyway and that it is more important to know something well
    > and your actual ideas, the the languages are much of a muchness...
    >
    > What do you think?


    What are your career ambitions? Do you want to be doing trivial little
    web sites for the rest of your life, or do you want to give enterprise-
    level application development a shot? If it's the latter, you'll need
    more than PHP and MySQL. A recent survey indicates that the take-up of
    PHP is declining as businesses head for Java and/or .Net applications.

    --
    Hywel
    http://kibo.org.uk/
     
    Hywel Jenkins, Aug 25, 2005
    #2
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  3. windandwaves

    Safalra Guest

    windandwaves wrote:
    > I know this is an html group, but I am sure many of you do web development
    > work that goes beyond html.
    >
    > I was wondering what you think works best.
    > - PHP
    > - Java something
    > - .net
    > - Mysql vs SQL vs Postgres (or whatever these databases are called)
    > - etc...
    >
    > I only do php and mysql, but recently someone told me that these are
    > hopelessly out of date compared to, for example, dot.net.


    ..NET will only run (reliably) on Windows-based servers (there are some
    Linux clones of .NET, but from what my .NET-minded friends tell me they
    rather unreliable). Java (-server pages) has greater support for other
    platforms, and Java is a fairly nice language. PHP is a mess of a
    language, but it seems to be the one most people (including me) use. It
    depends on who you're doing web development for, and whether they
    insist on a certain host. If they do, PHP with MySQL is probably the
    best combination, as most hosts offer a LAMP (Linux, Apache, MySQL,
    PHP) solution.

    --
    Safalra (Stephen Morley)
    http://www.safalra.com/hypertext/
     
    Safalra, Aug 25, 2005
    #3
  4. windandwaves

    SpaceGirl Guest

    Safalra wrote:
    > windandwaves wrote:
    >
    >>I know this is an html group, but I am sure many of you do web development
    >>work that goes beyond html.
    >>
    >>I was wondering what you think works best.
    >>- PHP
    >>- Java something
    >>- .net
    >>- Mysql vs SQL vs Postgres (or whatever these databases are called)
    >>- etc...
    >>
    >>I only do php and mysql, but recently someone told me that these are
    >>hopelessly out of date compared to, for example, dot.net.

    >
    >
    > .NET will only run (reliably) on Windows-based servers (there are some
    > Linux clones of .NET, but from what my .NET-minded friends tell me they
    > rather unreliable). Java (-server pages) has greater support for other
    > platforms, and Java is a fairly nice language. PHP is a mess of a
    > language, but it seems to be the one most people (including me) use. It
    > depends on who you're doing web development for, and whether they
    > insist on a certain host. If they do, PHP with MySQL is probably the
    > best combination, as most hosts offer a LAMP (Linux, Apache, MySQL,
    > PHP) solution.
    >


    ..NET runs on the same platforms as Java and PHP. There is an OpenSource
    edition of the .NET CLI. The MONO .NET clone is very reliable if you are
    doing straight-forwards things. Many hosts offer the option of LAMP+IIS
    (.NET 1.1 + ASP3) if they're any good. If you're going to be doing media
    serving, Windows servers generally offer the quickest way to develop a
    solution and are less complex to manage and maintain. But if it's pure
    flexibility you want, I choose JSP (Java) as my second platform.

    --


    x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

    # lead designer @ http://www.dhnewmedia.com #
    # remove NO SPAM to email, or use form on website #
    # this post (c) Miranda Thomas 2005
    # explicitly no permission given to Forum4Designers
    # to duplicate this post.
     
    SpaceGirl, Aug 25, 2005
    #4
  5. windandwaves

    Andy Dingley Guest

    On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 08:00:53 +1200, "windandwaves"
    <> wrote:

    >I was wondering what you think works best.


    Java. Far more capable than any of those. Not that I'd recommend it, as
    it's expensive overkill for everything except the larger sites.

    >I only do php and mysql, but recently someone told me that these are
    >hopelessly out of date compared to, for example, dot.net.


    Rubbish. CGI is outdated, but PHP is still in with a chance. It's only
    really suitable for small systems, but it's perfectly workable within
    that field.
     
    Andy Dingley, Aug 25, 2005
    #5
  6. windandwaves

    windandwaves Guest

    Hywel Jenkins wrote:
    > In article <bspPe.5836$>,
    > says...
    >> Hi Gurus
    >>
    >> I know this is an html group, but I am sure many of you do web
    >> development work that goes beyond html.
    >>
    >> I was wondering what you think works best.
    >> - PHP
    >> - Java something
    >> - .net
    >> - Mysql vs SQL vs Postgres (or whatever these databases are called)
    >> - etc...
    >>
    >> I only do php and mysql, but recently someone told me that these are
    >> hopelessly out of date compared to, for example, dot.net.
    >>
    >> Personally, I believe that it does not matter, that we will never
    >> use all the potential anyway and that it is more important to know
    >> something well and your actual ideas, the the languages are much of
    >> a muchness...
    >>
    >> What do you think?

    >
    > What are your career ambitions? Do you want to be doing trivial
    > little web sites for the rest of your life, or do you want to give
    > enterprise- level application development a shot?


    I am focussing on small and medium sized businesses as the average business
    size in New Zealand is eight people.

    > If it's the
    > latter, you'll need more than PHP and MySQL. A recent survey
    > indicates that the take-up of PHP is declining as businesses head for
    > Java and/or .Net applications.


    Hnmmm, yes, that is a shame, as I do like the concept of open source.
     
    windandwaves, Aug 25, 2005
    #6
  7. windandwaves

    windandwaves Guest

    Safalra wrote:
    > windandwaves wrote:
    >> I know this is an html group, but I am sure many of you do web
    >> development work that goes beyond html.
    >>
    >> I was wondering what you think works best.
    >> - PHP
    >> - Java something
    >> - .net
    >> - Mysql vs SQL vs Postgres (or whatever these databases are called)
    >> - etc...
    >>
    >> I only do php and mysql, but recently someone told me that these are
    >> hopelessly out of date compared to, for example, dot.net.

    >
    > .NET will only run (reliably) on Windows-based servers (there are some
    > Linux clones of .NET, but from what my .NET-minded friends tell me
    > they rather unreliable). Java (-server pages) has greater support for
    > other platforms, and Java is a fairly nice language.
    > PHP is a mess of
    > a language, but it seems to be the one most people (including me)


    Why is it such a mess? As this is all I know I dont really see the mess.

    > use. It depends on who you're doing web development for, and whether
    > they insist on a certain host. If they do, PHP with MySQL is probably
    > the best combination, as most hosts offer a LAMP (Linux, Apache,
    > MySQL, PHP) solution.
     
    windandwaves, Aug 25, 2005
    #7
  8. windandwaves

    windandwaves Guest

    SpaceGirl wrote:
    > If
    > you're going to be doing media serving, Windows servers generally


    what do mean with media serving?


    > offer the quickest way to develop a solution and are less complex to
    > manage and maintain. But if it's pure flexibility you want, I choose
    > JSP (Java) as my second platform.


    Would it take a long time to learn JSP?
     
    windandwaves, Aug 25, 2005
    #8
  9. windandwaves

    Chris Hope Guest

    windandwaves wrote:

    > Hywel Jenkins wrote:
    >> In article <bspPe.5836$>,
    >> says...
    >>> Hi Gurus
    >>>
    >>> I know this is an html group, but I am sure many of you do web
    >>> development work that goes beyond html.
    >>>
    >>> I was wondering what you think works best.
    >>> - PHP
    >>> - Java something
    >>> - .net
    >>> - Mysql vs SQL vs Postgres (or whatever these databases are called)
    >>> - etc...
    >>>
    >>> I only do php and mysql, but recently someone told me that these are
    >>> hopelessly out of date compared to, for example, dot.net.
    >>>
    >>> Personally, I believe that it does not matter, that we will never
    >>> use all the potential anyway and that it is more important to know
    >>> something well and your actual ideas, the the languages are much of
    >>> a muchness...
    >>>
    >>> What do you think?

    >>
    >> What are your career ambitions? Do you want to be doing trivial
    >> little web sites for the rest of your life, or do you want to give
    >> enterprise- level application development a shot?

    >
    > I am focussing on small and medium sized businesses as the average
    > business size in New Zealand is eight people.
    >
    >> If it's the
    >> latter, you'll need more than PHP and MySQL. A recent survey
    >> indicates that the take-up of PHP is declining as businesses head for
    >> Java and/or .Net applications.

    >
    > Hnmmm, yes, that is a shame, as I do like the concept of open source.


    Ah so you're from NZ. You're probably best to concentrate on .net or
    java then if you're looking for employment as there isn't a lot of call
    for PHP programmers, although personally I seem to be swamped with work
    at the moment (I only do PHP now). A look at sites like Netcheck will
    give you a good indication of the demand for various programming
    languages in NZ.

    --
    Chris Hope | www.electrictoolbox.com | www.linuxcdmall.com
     
    Chris Hope, Aug 26, 2005
    #9
  10. On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 08:00:53 +1200, windandwaves wrote:


    > What do you think?


    PHP is still useful for small projects, I like java because I can easily
    develop for it on my linux platform. As for .net I think it is good if you
    come from a Windows background as Microsoft are betting big on it and they
    have made some very nice development tools for it.

    If your main platform is linux/Unix I recommend you use PHP or Java as
    they are imho better integrated with the platform.

    So, to sum up, they all have their uses, but if you are a professional
    programmer I recommend you look at either java or .net based on your
    platform experiences as they seem to be what the industry is asking for
    (at least here in Denmark).
     
    Thomas Jespersen, Aug 26, 2005
    #10
  11. windandwaves

    windandwaves Guest

    Chris Hope wrote:
    ............


    > Ah so you're from NZ. You're probably best to concentrate on .net or
    > java then if you're looking for employment as there isn't a lot of
    > call for PHP programmers, although personally I seem to be swamped
    > with work at the moment (I only do PHP now). A look at sites like
    > Netcheck will give you a good indication of the demand for various
    > programming languages in NZ.


    I have my own business and I like to develop my own projects so it is not
    really an employment issue (I hope - I think!) But I dont want to waste my
    time plugging away in some sort of nineties assembler language while the
    rest of the world develops at twice the speed, using .net or what have you.
    How come a MS product is doing so well? I thought that was against the
    rules.
     
    windandwaves, Aug 26, 2005
    #11
  12. windandwaves

    Chris Hope Guest

    windandwaves wrote:

    > Chris Hope wrote:
    >> Ah so you're from NZ. You're probably best to concentrate on .net or
    >> java then if you're looking for employment as there isn't a lot of
    >> call for PHP programmers, although personally I seem to be swamped
    >> with work at the moment (I only do PHP now). A look at sites like
    >> Netcheck will give you a good indication of the demand for various
    >> programming languages in NZ.

    >
    > I have my own business and I like to develop my own projects so it is
    > not
    > really an employment issue (I hope - I think!) But I dont want to
    > waste my time plugging away in some sort of nineties assembler
    > language while the rest of the world develops at twice the speed,
    > using .net or what have you.
    > How come a MS product is doing so well? I thought that was against
    > the rules.


    By your own business do you mean it's just you, and you contract (which
    is what I do), or do you employ other people etc?

    It's always good to know of other PHP/web programmers in NZ as I'm in
    the position of having to turn away any new customers at the moment.

    There's someone who has approached me recently to get a CMS done but I
    don't think I'll have the time to work with him and they want it done
    in PHP. If you email me we can discuss this further if you're
    interested. Just change blackhole to chris in my email address.

    --
    Chris Hope | www.electrictoolbox.com | www.linuxcdmall.com
     
    Chris Hope, Aug 26, 2005
    #12
  13. windandwaves

    Toby Inkster Guest

    windandwaves wrote:

    > I only do php and mysql, but recently someone told me that these are
    > hopelessly out of date compared to, for example, dot.net.


    Don't listen to them. They've been sucked in by the Microsoft marketing
    machine.

    Look towards PHP 5 -- it expands the object-oriented facilities in PHP.
    Many PHP developers have recently focused on making PHP more suitable for
    large-scale projects (possibly because the original developer of PHP has
    been hired by Yahoo, and Yahoo are moving a lot of their development over
    from an in-house language to PHP) and PHP 5 is the result.

    Also, do have a play with PostgreSQL. If you're used to MySQL then you
    shouldn't have much of a leap, as they both use the SQL standard as a
    query language. PostgreSQL supports far more complicated queries than
    MySQL, and much bigger databases (although MySQL is catching up in both
    those areas).

    --
    Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
    Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact
     
    Toby Inkster, Aug 26, 2005
    #13
  14. windandwaves

    Chris Hope Guest

    Toby Inkster wrote:

    > windandwaves wrote:
    >
    >> I only do php and mysql, but recently someone told me that these are
    >> hopelessly out of date compared to, for example, dot.net.

    >
    > Don't listen to them. They've been sucked in by the Microsoft
    > marketing machine.
    >
    > Look towards PHP 5 -- it expands the object-oriented facilities in
    > PHP. Many PHP developers have recently focused on making PHP more
    > suitable for large-scale projects (possibly because the original
    > developer of PHP has been hired by Yahoo, and Yahoo are moving a lot
    > of their development over from an in-house language to PHP) and PHP 5
    > is the result.
    >
    > Also, do have a play with PostgreSQL. If you're used to MySQL then you
    > shouldn't have much of a leap, as they both use the SQL standard as a
    > query language. PostgreSQL supports far more complicated queries than
    > MySQL, and much bigger databases (although MySQL is catching up in
    > both those areas).


    I'm interested to see what's going to happen here. I started using MySQL
    over Postgres simply because it had both Windows and *nix support (and
    at the time I and my company were Windows users). I've stuck with MySQL
    since then as it's what I know but Postgres has always had more to it
    (views, stored procedures, referential integrity etc) but MySQL is
    finally getting to a similar point. The v5 release should be quite
    interesting.

    --
    Chris Hope | www.electrictoolbox.com | www.linuxcdmall.com
     
    Chris Hope, Aug 26, 2005
    #14
  15. windandwaves

    Safalra Guest

    Safalra, Aug 26, 2005
    #15
  16. windandwaves

    windandwaves Guest

    Toby Inkster wrote:
    > windandwaves wrote:
    >
    >> I only do php and mysql, but recently someone told me that these are
    >> hopelessly out of date compared to, for example, dot.net.

    >
    > Don't listen to them. They've been sucked in by the Microsoft
    > marketing machine.
    >
    > Look towards PHP 5 -- it expands the object-oriented facilities in
    > PHP. Many PHP developers have recently focused on making PHP more
    > suitable for large-scale projects (possibly because the original
    > developer of PHP has been hired by Yahoo, and Yahoo are moving a lot
    > of their development over from an in-house language to PHP) and PHP 5
    > is the result.
    >
    > Also, do have a play with PostgreSQL. If you're used to MySQL then you
    > shouldn't have much of a leap, as they both use the SQL standard as a
    > query language. PostgreSQL supports far more complicated queries than
    > MySQL, and much bigger databases (although MySQL is catching up in
    > both those areas).


    Hi Toby

    Thank you for your indepth reply. Cool, good news from you.

    I mean, I only use about 3% of PHP and MySql to do 90% of my work so I think
    you only really see the difference every now and then when you want to do
    something fancy.

    I am really interested to start programming more Object Oriented (I find it
    hard to understand), but I think I do this naturally a little, as I am
    always focussing on building a generic library of functions with a small
    execution list for my actual application.

    Thanks again for your positive words ;-)

    - Nicolaas
     
    windandwaves, Aug 26, 2005
    #16
  17. windandwaves

    kchayka Guest

    Safalra wrote:

    > windandwaves wrote:
    >> Safalra wrote:
    >> > [snip]
    >> > PHP is a mess of a language

    >>
    >> Why is it such a mess?

    >
    > http://www.ukuug.org/events/linux2002/papers/html/php/index.html


    "...it is not clear how well PHP scales for use in larger commercial
    websites."

    If you're not going after the larger commercial client and you don't
    personally have a problem with the language peculiarities, who cares if
    it's a "mess" or not?

    It's free and readily available on most servers with no special set up.
    Those are big selling points for a lot of people.

    --
    Reply email address is a bottomless spam bucket.
    Please reply to the group so everyone can share.
     
    kchayka, Aug 26, 2005
    #17
  18. windandwaves

    Safalra Guest

    kchayka wrote:
    > Safalra wrote:
    > > windandwaves wrote:
    > >> Safalra wrote:
    > >> > [snip]
    > >> > PHP is a mess of a language
    > >>
    > >> Why is it such a mess?

    > >
    > > http://www.ukuug.org/events/linux2002/papers/html/php/index.html

    >
    > "...it is not clear how well PHP scales for use in larger commercial
    > websites."
    >
    > If you're not going after the larger commercial client and you don't
    > personally have a problem with the language peculiarities, who cares if
    > it's a "mess" or not?
    > It's free and readily available on most servers with no special set up.
    > Those are big selling points for a lot of people.


    As I said elsewhere, it depends on who you're developing for, and I'd
    agree that there are circumstances where it's the best solution - I use
    it myself on some pages on my site.

    --
    Safalra (Stephen Morley)
    http://www.safalra.com/hypertext/
     
    Safalra, Aug 26, 2005
    #18
  19. Andy Dingley <> wrote:

    > CGI is outdated, but PHP is still in with a chance.


    What language is CGI again?

    --
    Joel.
     
    Joel Shepherd, Aug 27, 2005
    #19
  20. Joel Shepherd wrote:

    > Andy Dingley <> wrote:
    >
    > > CGI is outdated, but PHP is still in with a chance.

    >
    > What language is CGI again?


    CGI = Common Gateway Interface

    The computer language used is more or less any computer language you
    can execute files or scripts with. The most common language used is
    probably Perl, but per definition, this is really up to the developer
    of the CGI solution.

    --
    Kim André Akerø
    -
    (remove NOSPAM to contact me directly)
     
    =?iso-8859-1?Q?Kim_Andr=E9_Aker=F8?=, Aug 27, 2005
    #20
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