Automatically displaying a pdf file

[Steve Pugh]

This is my point. You cannot have a 50-page HTML document.

Why can't you?

Steve

 

[Jim Royal]

Why can't you?

HTML is one document, one page.

Do you know of a way to store multiple HTML pages inside one document?

 

[Steve Pugh]

HTML is one document, one page.

Have you never seen an HTML document that prints out on more than one
page? Really?

Do you know of a way to store multiple HTML pages inside one document?

I thought we were comparing the 50 page PDF. I can put all the text
from those 50 pages into one HTML document. I can also add a print
stylesheet that places the page breaks when printed in the same places
as in the PDF document.

Now considering that reading online is not a paged medium, but
printing is, so the above seems to be precisely a 50 page HTML
document.

Steve

 

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

Quoth the raven named Steve Pugh:

Have you never seen an HTML document that prints out on more than
one page? Really?


I thought we were comparing the 50 page PDF. I can put all the text
from those 50 pages into one HTML document. I can also add a print
stylesheet that places the page breaks when printed in the same
places as in the PDF document.

Now considering that reading online is not a paged medium, but
printing is, so the above seems to be precisely a 50 page HTML
document.

Exactly. I have an online membership database for a club, and the
membership chairman prints renewal forms each December. The code
generates it as one long HTML document, but the printed result is ~120
pages of individual forms. Uses { page-break-after: always }

 

[Andrew Glasgow]

They come up in quicktime on my win2k machine.

Using the plugin or the application?

 

[Jim Royal]

Have you never seen an HTML document that prints out on more than one
page? Really?

You rival Mister Spock as an excessive literalist.

An HTML page may print on multiple pieces of paper. it is nontheless a
single HTML page.

I thought we were comparing the 50 page PDF. I can put all the text
from those 50 pages into one HTML document. I can also add a print
stylesheet that places the page breaks when printed in the same places
as in the PDF document.

Now considering that reading online is not a paged medium, but
printing is, so the above seems to be precisely a 50 page HTML
document.

That's not good usability. Trying to scroll through an HTML document so
enormously long that it prints as 50 pages would be fatiguing. It's an
inelegant kluge that you invented simply to prove that your semantic
rearrangement of my original statement was wrong.

No one in his right mind would create an HTML document of that length.
That's a cure worse than the disease.

 

[William Tasso]

...
No one in his right mind would create an HTML document of that length.
http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/

That's a cure worse than the disease.

precisely

 

[Paul Furman]

Using the plugin or the application?

The plugin but now I recall I used to have to save to disk & open in
another program.

 

[Jim Royal]

http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/

Yikes -- I forgot about that one. And that comes out as 73 printed
pages.


Just goes to show that no rule is a blanket rule. There may be
exceptions for certain types of reference materials.

 

[Paul Furman]

Jim Royal wrote

Yikes -- I forgot about that one. And that comes out as 73 printed
pages.

That's much easier to read than a pdf. I really dislike pdf unless it's
specifically for printing. The whole browser locks up while the acrobat
loads! If the doc is big, it's a nightmare.

 

[Lauri Raittila]

That's much easier to read than a pdf.

Surely is. PDF has ugly fonts most times, as they are intended for print,
it is usually impossible to read pdf in less than 800px window, and it's
not nice in that size either. The problem is that my monitor ends.
PDF documents can't be navigated very well - of course this is only
problem for people who use browser that has navigation systems for html
files. Also, I don't think I can easily search links in PDF. Also,
selecting text and automatically finding translation for it don't work...
Or practically anything else. PDF also takes lots longer to load (even on
10MB connection) as well as render. PDF links don't show which links have
been visited already.

I think I forgot many problems of PDF, as I really not use them very
often, for obvious reasons,

I really dislike pdf unless it's
specifically for printing. The whole browser locks up while the acrobat
loads! If the doc is big, it's a nightmare.

In here, my computer will die with out of memory error, if I accidentally
click pdf link, and doesn't notice that untill it's too late. (I need to
relieve some space before using pdf's.)

 

[Steve Pugh]

You rival Mister Spock as an excessive literalist.

I'll take that as a complement.

An HTML page may print on multiple pieces of paper. it is nontheless a
single HTML page.

Would you also descibe the Bayeux Tapestry as a single page?

HTML is not a paged medium, in fact HTML is not a medium at all. HTML
documents can be printed, in which case the output is (normally)
paged, or they can be displayed on screen, in which case the output is
not (normally) paged.

That's not good usability. Trying to scroll through an HTML document so
enormously long that it prints as 50 pages would be fatiguing.

Trying to read a 50 page PDF on screen is also fatiguing.

It's an
inelegant kluge that you invented simply to prove that your semantic
rearrangement of my original statement was wrong.

Then what did you statement mean? You claim that that there's no such
thing as a 50 page HTML document. I claim that either there is, as X
number of pages worth of content can be put in a single HTML document;
or that there is equally no such thing as a 1 page HTML document, as
HTML is not a medium itself and in itself has no concept of the page.

Steve

 

[Jim Royal]

HTML is not a paged medium, in fact HTML is not a medium at all.

Sorry, I have no idea at all what this means. If HTML is not a medium,
then it cannot carry information. Since it does carry information, HTML
documents are therefore a form of media.

Trying to read a 50 page PDF on screen is also fatiguing.

But not nearly as much. A well-organized electronic book with
hyperlinks, indices, navigation tools, and careful typography is a much
easier online reading experience than a single monstrous web page.

(The sole exception is certain types of reference material, where you
want a small snippet of information from a large document. HTML can be
faster for searching in that case).

Then what did you statement mean? You claim that that there's no such
thing as a 50 page HTML document. I claim that either there is, as X
number of pages worth of content can be put in a single HTML document;
or that there is equally no such thing as a 1 page HTML document, as
HTML is not a medium itself and in itself has no concept of the page.

I stand by my claim. You cannot put multiplte HTML documents (i.e.,
multiple web pages) in a single file for the purposes of printing,
searching, indexing, reading, and transporting.

This is ridiculous. You know very well that an HTML document is
commonly referred to as a PAGE -- a single page with variable length.

Of course HTML is a paged medium. If it were not, then all HTML
documents would make up one uninterrupted flow. You're redefining words
on the fly simply to win an argument.

All this to say that HTML is a terrific tool for some things, and an
abysmal tool for others. Likewise, PDF. It would be nice if PDF files
could have variable-sized pages as HTML does. This would relieve a lot
of electronic document design issues.

(Actually, the Acrobat 6 help is a PDF document with varibale-sized
pages. But it doesn't work very well, as the keyboard shortcut for
scolling a page and moving to the next page are the same key, among
other reasons.)

In the meantime, PDF is an excellent tool for handling forms of
electronic documentation that HTML does not handle well. The two media
can coexist quite nicely.

 

[Steve Pugh]

Sorry, I have no idea at all what this means. If HTML is not a medium,
then it cannot carry information. Since it does carry information, HTML
documents are therefore a form of media.

HTML is not a medium. TV is a medium, print is a medium, the web is a
medium. HTML is just a data format, one that is designed to be output
to multiple media - screen, print, aural, etc.

But not nearly as much. A well-organized electronic book with
hyperlinks, indices, navigation tools, and careful typography

All those things exist in web pages.

I stand by my claim. You cannot put multiplte HTML documents (i.e.,
multiple web pages) in a single file for the purposes of printing,
searching, indexing, reading, and transporting.

Sure you can't put multiple HTML documents in a single file. But you
can't put multiple PDF documents in a single file either. But you can
take the content of multiple HTML or PDF documents and put them into a
single file.

This is ridiculous. You know very well that an HTML document is
commonly referred to as a PAGE -- a single page with variable length.

You are not comparing like with like. A WEB PAGE is not the same as
PRINTED PAGE.

Of course HTML is a paged medium. If it were not, then all HTML
documents would make up one uninterrupted flow.

HTML documents _are_ one uninterrupted flow. There is no such concept
of a page within an HTML document, the pages only exists when the
document is printed, when the HTML document is presented on screen, or
via a speech browser the pages do not exist at all. Unlike PDFs where
the pages exist on the screen as well as when printed.

You're redefining words on the fly simply to win an argument.

No I'm not. You don't seem to have grasped the fact that "page" has
two different meanings here; and that the two are not equivalent.

Steve

 

[Jim Royal]

You are not comparing like with like. A WEB PAGE is not the same as
PRINTED PAGE.

I am comparing like with like. I have not discussed the merits of
printed pages at all. You keep introducing this concept.

I am discussing two different forms of electronic pages: one fixed
length, the other variable-length. And the merits of two electronic
deliver formats: one multiple-page, the other single-page.

 

[Steve Pugh]

I am comparing like with like. I have not discussed the merits of
printed pages at all. You keep introducing this concept.

When discussing PDFs you can not escape the concept of the printed
page because the whole nature of the PDF format is geared around that
concept.

I am discussing two different forms of electronic pages: one fixed
length, the other variable-length.

PDF being the fixed length one? Because it forces the content to be
certain sizes for the purpose of printing. Might as well say that it's
fixed width and fixed height rather then fixed length; fixed length
suggests some limitation on the file size, or the amount of text that
can be contained inside.

And the merits of two electronic
deliver formats: one multiple-page, the other single-page.

There you go again. What is single page about an HTML document? The
fact that it doesn't have page breaks in it? That's what makes it
"zero-page" not single-page. HTML does not have any such concept as a
page.

Does a Word document suddenly become single page when you switch from
Print View to Outline? No, because the Word document, like the PDF,
has the concept of the page fundamentally embedded into it.
On the other hand does an HTML document suddenly become multiple page
when it is printed, or viewed via Print Preview? No, because HTML has
no such concept as a page, those are merely two of the many possible
output media an HTML document can be accessed via and those two happen
to be paged media whilst others are not.

Steve

 

[Jim Royal]

There you go again. What is single page about an HTML document? The
fact that it doesn't have page breaks in it? That's what makes it
"zero-page" not single-page. HTML does not have any such concept as a
page.

Ah. Web sites have no pages. Got it.

 

[Jim Royal]

Forgive my impatience, but what does any of this have to do with
anything?

The OP asked how to link to a PDF file, and rather than answering his
question, the first reply scolded him for using PDF files at all. This
was yet another in a long history of arrogant proscriptive
proselytizing in this group. Don't use PDF. Don't use Flash. Don't use
JavaScript. Don't use pixels. Don't use ems. Don't size text. Don't use
serif. Don't use sans-serif. Don't use frames. Don't use child windows.
All in all, a recipie for paralysis.

All of these technologies and methods have appropriate and
inappropriate uses. My reply was an attempt to point out a moderate
path.

What is your contribution to this dicussion?

 

[Steve Pugh]

Forgive my impatience, but what does any of this have to do with
anything?
[snip rant]

What is your contribution to this dicussion?

Asking you to clarify the baffling statement "You cannot have a
50-page HTML document".

Bye.

Steve