Basic question about compiling

Discussion in 'Java' started by simplicity, Feb 10, 2012.

  1. simplicity

    simplicity Guest

    I know this is kind of basic but somehow the solution escapes me.

    I have the applet which is supposed to hook up with the hardware
    attach to the computer. The hook-up interface is available in the
    external JAR archive called sbsdk.jar. So, I compile the applet with
    the following command:

    javac -d %DST% ^
    -classpath %CLASSPATH_1%;%CLASSPATH_2% ^
    %SRC%\MyApplet.java >%DST%\MyApplet.log 2>%DST%\MyApplet.err

    where
    %CLASSPATH_1% points to the location of the sbsdk.jar, namely "C:\Users
    \User\\Java\lib\sbsdk.jar"
    and
    %CLASSPATH_2% points to "%JRE%\lib\plugin.jar" (for JSObject to
    communicate with javascript in the page).

    OK, so far so good. Applet compiles with no issues. But that's where
    it ends. When I load the HTML file containing the applet into a
    browser I am getting the exception

    Exception in thread "thread applet-MyApplet.class-1"
    java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: com.<blah-blah>.sbsdk/SBSDKListener

    Luckily, I have the access to the sbsdk.jar source code. When I copy
    the folder structure containing compiled classes of sbsdk (com\<blah-
    blah>\sbsdk), my applet loads and everything works as expected.

    Can someone help me understand why this is happening? I know that this
    is generally caused by SBSDKListener class not being available at the
    run time (while it is available at compile time, hence no build
    errors) but I do not understand what it means in practical terms.
     
    simplicity, Feb 10, 2012
    #1
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  2. On 2/10/2012 8:12 AM, simplicity wrote:
    > I know this is kind of basic but somehow the solution escapes me.
    >
    > I have the applet which is supposed to hook up with the hardware
    > attach to the computer. The hook-up interface is available in the
    > external JAR archive called sbsdk.jar. So, I compile the applet with
    > the following command:
    >
    > javac -d %DST% ^
    > -classpath %CLASSPATH_1%;%CLASSPATH_2% ^
    > %SRC%\MyApplet.java>%DST%\MyApplet.log 2>%DST%\MyApplet.err
    >
    > where
    > %CLASSPATH_1% points to the location of the sbsdk.jar, namely "C:\Users
    > \User\\Java\lib\sbsdk.jar"
    > and
    > %CLASSPATH_2% points to "%JRE%\lib\plugin.jar" (for JSObject to
    > communicate with javascript in the page).
    >
    > OK, so far so good. Applet compiles with no issues. But that's where
    > it ends. When I load the HTML file containing the applet into a
    > browser I am getting the exception
    >
    > Exception in thread "thread applet-MyApplet.class-1"
    > java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: com.<blah-blah>.sbsdk/SBSDKListener
    >
    > Luckily, I have the access to the sbsdk.jar source code. When I copy
    > the folder structure containing compiled classes of sbsdk (com\<blah-
    > blah>\sbsdk), my applet loads and everything works as expected.
    >
    > Can someone help me understand why this is happening? I know that this
    > is generally caused by SBSDKListener class not being available at the
    > run time (while it is available at compile time, hence no build
    > errors) but I do not understand what it means in practical terms.
    >


    Do you have an archive statement in your APPLET tag that lists all the
    jar files?

    http://docs.oracle.com/javase/1.4.2/docs/guide/misc/applet.html

    --

    Knute Johnson
     
    Knute Johnson, Feb 10, 2012
    #2
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  3. simplicity

    Lew Guest

    Knute Johnson wrote:
    > simplicity wrote:
    > > I know this is kind of basic but somehow the solution escapes me.
    > >
    > > I have the applet which is supposed to hook up with the hardware
    > > attach to the computer. The hook-up interface is available in the
    > > external JAR archive called sbsdk.jar. So, I compile the applet with
    > > the following command:
    > >
    > > javac -d %DST% ^
    > > -classpath %CLASSPATH_1%;%CLASSPATH_2% ^
    > > %SRC%\MyApplet.java>%DST%\MyApplet.log 2>%DST%\MyApplet.err
    > >
    > > where
    > > %CLASSPATH_1% points to the location of the sbsdk.jar, namely "C:\Users
    > > \User\\Java\lib\sbsdk.jar"
    > > and
    > > %CLASSPATH_2% points to "%JRE%\lib\plugin.jar" (for JSObject to
    > > communicate with javascript in the page).
    > >
    > > OK, so far so good. Applet compiles with no issues. But that's where


    So far all you've done is specify the compile-time classpath.

    > > it ends. When I load the HTML file containing the applet into a
    > > browser I am getting the exception
    > >
    > > Exception in thread "thread applet-MyApplet.class-1"
    > > java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: com.<blah-blah>.sbsdk/SBSDKListener


    Because you did not provide the JAR to the runtime classpath!

    You need to study the Java tutorial.

    > > Luckily, I have the access to the sbsdk.jar source code. When I copy
    > > the folder structure containing compiled classes of sbsdk (com\<blah-
    > > blah>\sbsdk), my applet loads and everything works as expected.


    Your expectations are what are at fault.

    You must provide the dependencies *at run-time*.

    > > Can someone help me understand why this is happening? I know that this


    We can tell you why this is happening; we cannot help you understand it.

    > > is generally caused by SBSDKListener class not being available at the
    > > run time (while it is available at compile time, hence no build
    > > errors) but I do not understand what it means in practical terms.


    It means, in practical terms, that you neglected to provide the applet with
    its dependencies. Consider Knute's question:

    > Do you have an archive statement in your APPLET tag that lists all the
    > jar files?
    >
    > http://docs.oracle.com/javase/1.4.2/docs/guide/misc/applet.html


    Presumably he linked you to ancient docs to make the point that nothing has
    changed in this area for a very long time.

    You should read the tutorials and other documentation.

    --
    Lew
     
    Lew, Feb 10, 2012
    #3
  4. simplicity

    simplicity Guest

    On Feb 10, 10:00 am, Knute Johnson <> wrote:
    > On 2/10/2012 8:12 AM, simplicity wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > > I know this is kind of basic but somehow the solution escapes me.

    >
    > > I have the applet which is supposed to hook up with the hardware
    > > attach to the computer. The hook-up interface is available in the
    > > external JAR archive called sbsdk.jar. So, I compile the applet with
    > > the following command:

    >
    > > javac -d %DST% ^
    > >        -classpath %CLASSPATH_1%;%CLASSPATH_2% ^
    > >        %SRC%\MyApplet.java>%DST%\MyApplet.log 2>%DST%\MyApplet.err

    >
    > > where
    > > %CLASSPATH_1% points to the location of the sbsdk.jar, namely "C:\Users
    > > \User\\Java\lib\sbsdk.jar"
    > > and
    > > %CLASSPATH_2% points to "%JRE%\lib\plugin.jar" (for JSObject to
    > > communicate with javascript in the page).

    >
    > > OK, so far so good. Applet compiles with no issues. But that's where
    > > it ends. When I load the HTML file containing the applet into a
    > > browser I am getting the exception

    >
    > > Exception in thread "thread applet-MyApplet.class-1"
    > > java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: com.<blah-blah>.sbsdk/SBSDKListener

    >
    > > Luckily, I have the access to the sbsdk.jar source code.  When I copy
    > > the folder structure containing compiled classes of sbsdk (com\<blah-
    > > blah>\sbsdk), my applet loads and everything works as expected.

    >
    > > Can someone help me understand why this is happening? I know that this
    > > is generally caused by SBSDKListener class not being available at the
    > > run time (while it is available at compile time, hence no build
    > > errors) but I do not understand what it means in practical terms.

    >
    > Do you have an archive statement in your APPLET tag that lists all the
    > jar files?
    >
    > http://docs.oracle.com/javase/1.4.2/docs/guide/misc/applet.html
    >
    > --
    >
    > Knute Johnson


    I do, but I only specify MyApplet.jar there. Does it mean that I
    should have sbsdk.jar added to archive attribute?

    How about plugin.jar? Obviously, I do not have the access to its
    compiled classes but this one loads without complains. What's the
    difference?
     
    simplicity, Feb 10, 2012
    #4
  5. On 2/10/2012 11:26 AM, simplicity wrote:
    > I do, but I only specify MyApplet.jar there. Does it mean that I
    > should have sbsdk.jar added to archive attribute?


    If you are using classes from sbsdk.jar at runtime, you need to include
    that file in the archive statement.

    > How about plugin.jar? Obviously, I do not have the access to its
    > compiled classes but this one loads without complains. What's the
    > difference?


    I'm not familiar with what plugin.jar does so I don't know if it would
    be included by some other method. So I would try including it.

    --

    Knute Johnson
     
    Knute Johnson, Feb 10, 2012
    #5
  6. simplicity

    simplicity Guest

    On Feb 10, 10:29 am, Lew <> wrote:
    > Knute Johnson wrote:
    > > simplicity wrote:
    > > > I know this is kind of basic but somehow the solution escapes me.

    >
    > > > I have the applet which is supposed to hook up with the hardware
    > > > attach to the computer. The hook-up interface is available in the
    > > > external JAR archive called sbsdk.jar. So, I compile the applet with
    > > > the following command:

    >
    > > > javac -d %DST% ^
    > > >        -classpath %CLASSPATH_1%;%CLASSPATH_2% ^
    > > >        %SRC%\MyApplet.java>%DST%\MyApplet.log 2>%DST%\MyApplet.err

    >
    > > > where
    > > > %CLASSPATH_1% points to the location of the sbsdk.jar, namely "C:\Users
    > > > \User\\Java\lib\sbsdk.jar"
    > > > and
    > > > %CLASSPATH_2% points to "%JRE%\lib\plugin.jar" (for JSObject to
    > > > communicate with javascript in the page).

    >
    > > > OK, so far so good. Applet compiles with no issues. But that's where

    >
    > So far all you've done is specify the compile-time classpath.
    >
    > > > it ends. When I load the HTML file containing the applet into a
    > > > browser I am getting the exception

    >
    > > > Exception in thread "thread applet-MyApplet.class-1"
    > > > java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: com.<blah-blah>.sbsdk/SBSDKListener

    >
    > Because you did not provide the JAR to the runtime classpath!
    >
    > You need to study the Java tutorial.
    >
    > > > Luckily, I have the access to the sbsdk.jar source code.  When I copy
    > > > the folder structure containing compiled classes of sbsdk (com\<blah-
    > > > blah>\sbsdk), my applet loads and everything works as expected.

    >
    > Your expectations are what are at fault.


    I guess you are right. When I post the question on the public forum my
    expectations are (1) get the answer, regardless of how trivial, basic
    and obvious it might be or (2) get a gibberish like the stuff you
    spent time on creating.

    "Go do your research" is a typical response of a clueless buffoon
    whose only characteristic is that he/she cannot keep his/her mouth
    shut.

    > You must provide the dependencies *at run-time*.


    Didn't I say that I know WHAT is causing it? I thought I did. What I
    do not know is WHY and HOW to fix it.

    Anyway, thanks for your time you spent typing your response. Sorry to
    state it to you though that it is useless. I always DO my research and
    if I decide to go public with questions it means I did not find the
    answer myself. I suppose the same applies to majority of folks here
    and my advise to you is: give people a bit of a slack.

    > > > Can someone help me understand why this is happening? I know that this


    > We can tell you why this is happening; we cannot help you understand it.


    And also thanks for your attempt to point out to me how really stupid
    I am. I am going to try to improve...
     
    simplicity, Feb 10, 2012
    #6
  7. simplicity

    simplicity Guest

    On Feb 10, 12:37 pm, Knute Johnson <> wrote:
    > On 2/10/2012 11:26 AM, simplicity wrote:
    >
    > > I do, but I only specify MyApplet.jar there. Does it mean that I
    > > should have sbsdk.jar added to archive attribute?

    >
    > If you are using classes from sbsdk.jar at runtime, you need to include
    > that file in the archive statement.
    >
    > > How about plugin.jar? Obviously, I do not have the access to its
    > > compiled classes but this one loads without complains. What's the
    > > difference?

    >
    > I'm not familiar with what plugin.jar does so I don't know if it would
    > be included by some other method.  So I would try including it.


    It contains JSObject which provides the interface between the applet
    and Javascrip so I can pass the info back and forth between the applet
    and the HTML.

    Thanks for the hint. I am going to try.
     
    simplicity, Feb 10, 2012
    #7
  8. simplicity

    simplicity Guest

    On Feb 10, 12:37 pm, Knute Johnson <> wrote:
    > On 2/10/2012 11:26 AM, simplicity wrote:
    >
    > > I do, but I only specify MyApplet.jar there. Does it mean that I
    > > should have sbsdk.jar added to archive attribute?

    >
    > If you are using classes from sbsdk.jar at runtime, you need to include
    > that file in the archive statement.
    >
    > > How about plugin.jar? Obviously, I do not have the access to its
    > > compiled classes but this one loads without complains. What's the
    > > difference?

    >
    > I'm not familiar with what plugin.jar does so I don't know if it would
    > be included by some other method.  So I would try including it.
    >
    > --
    >
    > Knute Johnson


    Including sbsk.jar in the archive

    <applet code="MyApplet.class" archive="MyApplet.jar,sbsdk.jar"
    mayscript
    width="700" height="500">
    </applet>

    works.

    For some reason I do not need to spec plugin.jar. Well, this is a
    "system" archive so maybe there is a global setting of JVM to link it.
    Anyway...

    Appreciate your help. Thanks.
     
    simplicity, Feb 10, 2012
    #8
  9. simplicity

    Lew Guest

    On Friday, February 10, 2012 11:48:13 AM UTC-8, simplicity wrote:
    > On Feb 10, 10:29 am, Lew <> wrote:
    > > Knute Johnson wrote:
    > > > simplicity wrote:
    > > > > I know this is kind of basic but somehow the solution escapes me.

    > >
    > > > > I have the applet which is supposed to hook up with the hardware
    > > > > attach to the computer. The hook-up interface is available in the
    > > > > external JAR archive called sbsdk.jar. So, I compile the applet with
    > > > > the following command:

    > >
    > > > > javac -d %DST% ^
    > > > >        -classpath %CLASSPATH_1%;%CLASSPATH_2% ^
    > > > >        %SRC%\MyApplet.java>%DST%\MyApplet.log 2>%DST%\MyApplet.err

    > >
    > > > > where
    > > > > %CLASSPATH_1% points to the location of the sbsdk.jar, namely "C:\Users
    > > > > \User\\Java\lib\sbsdk.jar"
    > > > > and
    > > > > %CLASSPATH_2% points to "%JRE%\lib\plugin.jar" (for JSObject to
    > > > > communicate with javascript in the page).

    > >
    > > > > OK, so far so good. Applet compiles with no issues. But that's where

    > >
    > > So far all you've done is specify the compile-time classpath.
    > >
    > > > > it ends. When I load the HTML file containing the applet into a
    > > > > browser I am getting the exception

    > >
    > > > > Exception in thread "thread applet-MyApplet.class-1"
    > > > > java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: com.<blah-blah>.sbsdk/SBSDKListener

    > >
    > > Because you did not provide the JAR to the runtime classpath!
    > >
    > > You need to study the Java tutorial.
    > >
    > > > > Luckily, I have the access to the sbsdk.jar source code.  When I copy
    > > > > the folder structure containing compiled classes of sbsdk (com\<blah-
    > > > > blah>\sbsdk), my applet loads and everything works as expected.

    > >
    > > Your expectations are what are at fault.

    >
    > I guess you are right. When I post the question on the public forum my
    > expectations are (1) get the answer, regardless of how trivial, basic
    > and obvious it might be or (2) get a gibberish like the stuff you
    > spent time on creating.
    >
    > "Go do your research" is a typical response of a clueless buffoon
    > whose only characteristic is that he/she cannot keep his/her mouth
    > shut.


    So you're saying that reading the documentation is not a good idea?

    > > You must provide the dependencies *at run-time*.

    >
    > Didn't I say that I know WHAT is causing it? I thought I did. What I
    > do not know is WHY and HOW to fix it.


    You asked specifically for help understanding the issue. Another respondenthad
    given you a recipe for repair; I did not see any point in wasting your time
    repeating his good advice. However, that only answered part of your question.
    You also asked, "Can someone help me understand why this is happening?" I am so
    very sorry I took your question seriously and tried to answer it more fully..
    I guess I was under the assumption that you actually wanted the information
    that you requested.

    > Anyway, thanks for your time you spent typing your response. Sorry to
    > state it to you though that it is useless. I always DO my research and
    > if I decide to go public with questions it means I did not find the
    > answer myself. I suppose the same applies to majority of folks here
    > and my advise [sic] to you is: give people a bit of a slack.


    Your answer showed no signs of you having read or understood the very basic
    need in Java to have the JAR present at runtime as well as at compile time.
    Under the circumstances, telling you what to research and where seemed
    appropriate. Now, untwist your knickers, please.

    > > > > Can someone help me understand why this is happening? I know that this

    >
    > > We can tell you why this is happening; we cannot help you understand it..

    >
    > And also thanks for your attempt to point out to me how really stupid
    > I am. I am going to try to improve...


    With that level of response to the help you received, I doubt it.

    --
    Lew
     
    Lew, Feb 10, 2012
    #9
  10. On 10.02.2012 20:37, Knute Johnson wrote:
    > On 2/10/2012 11:26 AM, simplicity wrote:
    >> I do, but I only specify MyApplet.jar there. Does it mean that I
    >> should have sbsdk.jar added to archive attribute?

    >
    > If you are using classes from sbsdk.jar at runtime, you need to include
    > that file in the archive statement.


    But that's not the only option. The Jar's classpath would be another.

    Cheers

    robert

    --
    remember.guy do |as, often| as.you_can - without end
    http://blog.rubybestpractices.com/
     
    Robert Klemme, Feb 10, 2012
    #10
  11. simplicity

    Roedy Green Guest

    On Fri, 10 Feb 2012 08:12:07 -0800 (PST), simplicity
    <> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who
    said :

    >OK, so far so good. Applet compiles with no issues. But that's where
    >it ends. When I load the HTML file containing the applet into a
    >browser I am getting the exception


    You either have to put links to the other jars in your jar, or include
    their contents. The third way to do it is with JNLP that has a
    mechanism for specifying extra jars in the *.jnlp file3.

    See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jar.html
    http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jarexe.html
    http://mindprod.com/jgloss/classpath.html
    http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jnlp.html
    --
    Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
    http://mindprod.com
    One of the most useful comments you can put in a program is
    "If you change this, remember to change ?XXX? too".
     
    Roedy Green, Feb 11, 2012
    #11
  12. simplicity

    Arne Vajhøj Guest

    On 2/10/2012 3:30 PM, simplicity wrote:
    > On Feb 10, 12:37 pm, Knute Johnson<> wrote:
    >> On 2/10/2012 11:26 AM, simplicity wrote:
    >>> I do, but I only specify MyApplet.jar there. Does it mean that I
    >>> should have sbsdk.jar added to archive attribute?

    >>
    >> If you are using classes from sbsdk.jar at runtime, you need to include
    >> that file in the archive statement.
    >>
    >>> How about plugin.jar? Obviously, I do not have the access to its
    >>> compiled classes but this one loads without complains. What's the
    >>> difference?

    >>
    >> I'm not familiar with what plugin.jar does so I don't know if it would
    >> be included by some other method. So I would try including it.

    >
    > Including sbsk.jar in the archive
    >
    > <applet code="MyApplet.class" archive="MyApplet.jar,sbsdk.jar"
    > mayscript
    > width="700" height="500">
    > </applet>
    >
    > works.
    >
    > For some reason I do not need to spec plugin.jar. Well, this is a
    > "system" archive so maybe there is a global setting of JVM to link it.
    > Anyway...


    The Java browser plugin automatically adds plugin.jar - maybe
    not so surprising that a plugin uses plugin.jar.

    Arne
     
    Arne Vajhøj, Feb 11, 2012
    #12
  13. simplicity

    Arne Vajhøj Guest

    On 2/10/2012 2:48 PM, simplicity wrote:
    > On Feb 10, 10:29 am, Lew<> wrote:
    >> You must provide the dependencies *at run-time*.

    >
    > Didn't I say that I know WHAT is causing it? I thought I did. What I
    > do not know is WHY and HOW to fix it.


    If WHY is the question, then you certainly need to study some
    more Java.

    HOW to fix it was already answered by someone else.

    > Anyway, thanks for your time you spent typing your response. Sorry to
    > state it to you though that it is useless. I always DO my research and
    > if I decide to go public with questions it means I did not find the
    > answer myself. I suppose the same applies to majority of folks here
    > and my advise to you is: give people a bit of a slack.


    Agreed.

    Arne
     
    Arne Vajhøj, Feb 11, 2012
    #13
  14. simplicity

    simplicity Guest

    On Feb 11, 1:14 pm, Arne Vajhøj <> wrote:
    > On 2/10/2012 2:48 PM, simplicity wrote:
    >
    > > On Feb 10, 10:29 am, Lew<>  wrote:
    > >> You must provide the dependencies *at run-time*.

    >
    > > Didn't I say that I know WHAT is causing it? I thought I did. What I
    > > do not know is WHY and HOW to fix it.

    >
    > If WHY is the question, then you certainly need to study some
    > more Java.


    Correct. I am extremely rarely involved in projects requiring Java.
    This one is a one-off prototype to see if our toolkit can integrate
    with a Java in a browser. I did most of it after looking into docs and
    examples from the web: sample applet itself, Java to native interface,
    java policies. Unfortunately I tripped on one of the most trivial
    steps in the project - everything worked fine in Eclipse and
    appletviewer but broke when the same was loaded into a browser.

    BTW, didn't it happen to you that you suddenly got the WHY part after
    someone showed you the HOW aspect? It did to me on countless
    occasions. Just as it did in this case... :).

    >
    > HOW to fix it was already answered by someone else.


    And I expressed my appreciation to him. About a minute of Knute's
    typing saved me possibly hours of searching. Big and measurable
    difference from Lew's "RTFM, stupid!!!" type of response.

    >
    > > Anyway, thanks for your time you spent typing your response. Sorry to
    > > state it to you though that it is useless. I always DO my research and
    > > if I decide to go public with questions it means I did not find the
    > > answer myself. I suppose the same applies to majority of folks here
    > > and my advise to you is: give people a bit of a slack.

    >
    > Agreed.


    The purpose of the forum like this is to help each other, not to bash
    people. Lew with his attitude is definitely in the wrong place.
     
    simplicity, Feb 11, 2012
    #14
  15. simplicity

    simplicity Guest

    On Feb 10, 2:11 pm, Lew <> wrote:
    > On Friday, February 10, 2012 11:48:13 AM UTC-8, simplicity wrote:
    > > "Go do your research" is a typical response of a clueless buffoon
    > > whose only characteristic is that he/she cannot keep his/her mouth
    > > shut.

    >
    > So you're saying that reading the documentation is not a good idea?


    No. What I am saying is that, in the professional world, question
    asked, any question for that matter, mandates answer different than
    "RTFM" type.

    > > > You must provide the dependencies *at run-time*.

    >
    > > Didn't I say that I know WHAT is causing it? I thought I did. What I
    > > do not know is WHY and HOW to fix it.

    >
    > You asked specifically for help understanding the issue.


    That's right. What you covered in your answered I got from reading the
    exception in the console. So, from the quality point of view you were
    not very revealing.

    > Another respondent had
    > given you a recipe for repair; I did not see any point in wasting your time
    > repeating his good advice.


    There was a big difference between his and your replies. If you don't
    see this, well, too bad...

    > However, that only answered part of your question.
    > You also asked, "Can someone help me understand why this is happening?" Iam so
    > very sorry I took your question seriously and tried to answer it more fully.
    > I guess I was under the assumption that you actually wanted the information
    > that you requested.


    Wrong. You wrote, quote, "We can tell you why this is happening; we
    cannot help you understand it." I do not know who that "we" is in your
    statement, the fact remains that "we" did neither.

    OK, I got the help I sought and a bit of entertainment at the same
    time.

    Cheers...
     
    simplicity, Feb 11, 2012
    #15
  16. simplicity

    Arne Vajhøj Guest

    On 2/11/2012 3:58 PM, simplicity wrote:
    > On Feb 11, 1:14 pm, Arne Vajhøj<> wrote:
    >> On 2/10/2012 2:48 PM, simplicity wrote:
    >>
    >>> On Feb 10, 10:29 am, Lew<> wrote:
    >>>> You must provide the dependencies *at run-time*.

    >>
    >>> Didn't I say that I know WHAT is causing it? I thought I did. What I
    >>> do not know is WHY and HOW to fix it.

    >>
    >> If WHY is the question, then you certainly need to study some
    >> more Java.

    >
    > Correct. I am extremely rarely involved in projects requiring Java.
    > This one is a one-off prototype to see if our toolkit can integrate
    > with a Java in a browser. I did most of it after looking into docs and
    > examples from the web: sample applet itself, Java to native interface,
    > java policies. Unfortunately I tripped on one of the most trivial
    > steps in the project - everything worked fine in Eclipse and
    > appletviewer but broke when the same was loaded into a browser.


    > BTW, didn't it happen to you that you suddenly got the WHY part after
    > someone showed you the HOW aspect?


    More times than I can count.

    Arne
     
    Arne Vajhøj, Feb 11, 2012
    #16
  17. On 12-02-11 04:58 PM, simplicity wrote:
    > On Feb 11, 1:14 pm, Arne Vajhøj <> wrote:
    >> On 2/10/2012 2:48 PM, simplicity wrote:
    >>
    >>> On Feb 10, 10:29 am, Lew<> wrote:
    >>>> You must provide the dependencies *at run-time*.

    >>
    >>> Didn't I say that I know WHAT is causing it? I thought I did. What I
    >>> do not know is WHY and HOW to fix it.

    >>
    >> If WHY is the question, then you certainly need to study some
    >> more Java.

    >
    > Correct. I am extremely rarely involved in projects requiring Java.
    > This one is a one-off prototype to see if our toolkit can integrate
    > with a Java in a browser. I did most of it after looking into docs and
    > examples from the web: sample applet itself, Java to native interface,
    > java policies. Unfortunately I tripped on one of the most trivial
    > steps in the project - everything worked fine in Eclipse and
    > appletviewer but broke when the same was loaded into a browser.
    >
    > BTW, didn't it happen to you that you suddenly got the WHY part after
    > someone showed you the HOW aspect? It did to me on countless
    > occasions. Just as it did in this case... :).

    [ SNIP ]

    HOW without the WHY is often legit. In fact you may never need to know
    the WHY. That's why we've got dozens upon dozens of domain specialists
    in software development. Even an individual who seems to know how to do
    everything by themselves - e.g. learns how to configure a new app server
    (SSL, LDAP/S, database connections, JMS, clustering, security realms
    etc) in a day or less - is probably just someone who has been in the
    business long enough that they have become very good at locating,
    reading and applying all the HOW material: instruction manuals, online
    forums, READMEs and what have you. In a number of areas there may not be
    that deep WHY knowledge...and often there doesn't need to be.

    Even in teaching situations where the WHY is important, and has to be
    communicated, there are many approaches to getting it across. Like you
    suggested, with some people you do best in showing them a HOW, and the
    they make good progress with the WHY. I know folks like this. Then there
    are others, and I know some like this, who do best with WHY instruction,
    and only then do they handle the HOW. Most people are a combination of
    the two: I learn some things best with a HOW->WHY approach, other things
    best with a WHY->HOW approach.

    Many of us have built C/C++ executables or libraries from scratch, on
    various operating systems. Maybe it's the ./configure, make, make
    install sequence, or equivalents in the VS world, doesn't matter. The
    point is that most of the time we're not building the executable or
    shared library because we have any interest in the source of what we're
    building, and often we don't even have the slightest interest in *what*
    we're building. We simply need that executable or library on the path to
    accomplishing something else productive, and that build process is the
    only way to get the correct binary.

    Under the circumstances, if halfway through "make" you get a complicated
    compile or link error, do you really care about the WHY? Not bloody
    likely. If you looked at the README and INSTALL, and they even had a
    section specific to your OS there, and you followed the instructions,
    that error is an unexpected nuisance. If you're like me you just want to
    know HOW to fix it, and couldn't care less about WHY. Off to Google we
    go with the exact error, often we're lucky and some dude has a patch
    suggestion for obscure.cpp or someone else tells you to tweak a compile
    switch for OS version 13.4.2 because the INSTALL docs were for version
    13.4.0. And you do it mindlessly, your build and install succeeds, you
    often never understood the WHY, and you don't care.

    It's possible to get too hung up on the "give a man a fish, teach a man
    to fish" idea. Frequently the most productive thing to do, for all
    concerned, is just to give the man a fish.

    In other spheres of human activity we already know to balance and ration
    the HOW and WHY accordingly. We do that both in horizontal and vertical
    silos. Why should it be any different in software development?

    As far as any given responder is concerned, we all have our strengths.
    None of us are good with all the domain areas, nor with all types of
    questions. By and large Lew is among the more consistently good
    responders in the NG, but he'll be a mismatch for some posters. We all
    are from time to time. Best thing to do is suck it up, you'll eventually
    get a suitable answer, like this time from Knute. Doesn't mean that the
    next time you ask on this group that your best answer won't come from Lew.

    AHS
    --
    ....wherever the people are well informed they can be trusted with their
    own government...
    -- Thomas Jefferson, 1789
     
    Arved Sandstrom, Feb 11, 2012
    #17
  18. simplicity

    Arne Vajhøj Guest

    On 2/11/2012 4:17 PM, simplicity wrote:
    > On Feb 10, 2:11 pm, Lew<> wrote:
    >> On Friday, February 10, 2012 11:48:13 AM UTC-8, simplicity wrote:
    >>> "Go do your research" is a typical response of a clueless buffoon
    >>> whose only characteristic is that he/she cannot keep his/her mouth
    >>> shut.

    >>
    >> So you're saying that reading the documentation is not a good idea?

    >
    > No. What I am saying is that, in the professional world, question
    > asked, any question for that matter, mandates answer different than
    > "RTFM" type.


    Occasionally RTFM is the best answer.

    If the level of the question is below what is the expectation
    in the group.

    Arne
     
    Arne Vajhøj, Feb 11, 2012
    #18
  19. simplicity

    Lew Guest

    Arne Vajhøj wrote:
    > simplicity wrote:
    > > Lew wrote:
    > >> simplicity wrote:
    > >>> "Go do your research" is a typical response of a clueless buffoon
    > >>> whose only characteristic is that he/she cannot keep his/her mouth
    > >>> shut.
    > >>
    > >> So you're saying that reading the documentation is not a good idea?

    > >
    > > No. What I am saying is that, in the professional world, question
    > > asked, any question for that matter, mandates answer different than
    > > "RTFM" type.

    >
    > Occasionally RTFM is the best answer.
    >
    > If the level of the question is below what is the expectation
    > in the group.


    "simplicity", you seriously need to get over yourself. This is not your
    personal, private little slave pool to offer answers to any questions you ask
    and take abuse from you. This is a Usenet *discussion* group, and any help you
    get is at the discretion and voluntary desire to help of the other
    participants.

    It is just too bad for you that you didn't find my answer helpful, but thatis
    not any kind of excuse for your rudeness and ingratitude and downright
    snarkiness. You have no basis whatsoever for this arrogant attitude of
    entitlement you evince, nor have I done anything so rude as to merit the kind
    of personal attack in which you've engaged. The answers I gave are helpful to
    you, should you get down off your high horse to do the kind of studying and
    learning you so clearly need to do. As Arne said, this newsgroup will point
    you to basic documentation if that exists for basic questions such as yours..

    It is a personal failing on your part, and a darned shame, "simplicity", that
    you cannot or will not observe the rudiments of basic human decency and
    understand your proper place here. We are all equals here; none of us is your
    subordinate, not that you should behave that way to subordinates either.

    --
    Lew
     
    Lew, Feb 12, 2012
    #19
  20. simplicity

    simplicity Guest

    On Feb 11, 3:58 pm, Arne Vajhøj <> wrote:
    > On 2/11/2012 4:17 PM, simplicity wrote:
    >
    > > On Feb 10, 2:11 pm, Lew<>  wrote:
    > >> On Friday, February 10, 2012 11:48:13 AM UTC-8, simplicity wrote:
    > >>> "Go do your research" is a typical response of a clueless buffoon
    > >>> whose only characteristic is that he/she cannot keep his/her mouth
    > >>> shut.

    >
    > >> So you're saying that reading the documentation is not a good idea?

    >
    > > No. What I am saying is that, in the professional world, question
    > > asked, any question for that matter, mandates answer different than
    > > "RTFM" type.

    >
    > Occasionally RTFM is the best answer.


    Disagreed. Just ask yourself this question: how long would you survive
    in the organization if you gave your colleague the "RTFM answer"? I
    thing you would be a history before the day's end.

    Why would this forum be any different than the organization we work
    for?

    > If the level of the question is below what is the expectation
    > in the group.


    Who are we to make ruling on "expectations in the group"?

    We progress when we can build from what our predecessors accomplished.
    Starting from zero and going through the same over and over - sort of
    what Lew's suggested in his reply, is counter to this philosophy. And
    when I read his latest post it makes me think tat he still does not
    get it.
     
    simplicity, Feb 12, 2012
    #20
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