beta.python.org content

Discussion in 'Python' started by Steve Holden, Jan 26, 2006.

  1. Steve Holden

    Steve Holden Guest

    Steve Holden, Jan 26, 2006
    #1
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  2. Steve Holden

    Rinzwind Guest

    I am not a design professional but since you didn't ask for
    professionals but for beginners ;-) ...

    - At the left hand side you used abbreviations (like PSF). Using the
    full name says more about the option.
    - I don't like capitals alot either (as used in the menu).
    - The corporate look of the site might be something I need getting used
    too.
    - And I think the top part needs some nice images. Just python and logo
    is taking up too much space for what it shows.

    But it's a good change compared to the old site. That one was way too
    ascii ;-)
     
    Rinzwind, Jan 26, 2006
    #2
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  3. Steve Holden

    Peter Maas Guest

    Steve Holden schrieb:
    > How does
    >
    > http://beta.python.org/about/beginners/
    >
    > look?


    I like it :) Some minor points:

    - The logo does indeed resemble a cross. How about rotating it at 45 deg
    to make it look like an x? Or give it a circular shape? Please note
    that there are no religious motives in this remark :)

    - I really liked the different looking Pythons in the logo corner. Couldn't
    they find asylum somewhere in the new site?

    - I would prefer stronger, less flimsy colours.

    But apart from these superficial points: well done :)

    Peter Maas, Aachen
     
    Peter Maas, Jan 26, 2006
    #3
  4. Steve Holden schreef:
    > How does
    >
    > http://beta.python.org/about/beginners/
    >
    > look?


    I think it's OK, apart from the fact that the font size of the text
    overrides my browser's default. It looks and reads much better without
    the font-size: 75%.

    --
    If I have been able to see further, it was only because I stood
    on the shoulders of giants. -- Isaac Newton

    Roel Schroeven
     
    Roel Schroeven, Jan 26, 2006
    #4
  5. Steve Holden

    Tony Meyer Guest

    > - The logo does indeed resemble a cross. How about rotating it at
    > 45 deg
    > to make it look like an x? Or give it a circular shape? Please note
    > that there are no religious motives in this remark :)


    -1. Then what are the motives? A rotated cross looks a lot less
    clean. Take a look at the crosses at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
    Cross - the only ones it vaguely resembles are the Greek cross and
    the Red Cross. It certainly doesn't resemble the Christian (longer
    upright section) cross, and as the article says, the cross is one of
    the oldest symbols in existance.

    =Tony.Meyer
     
    Tony Meyer, Jan 26, 2006
    #5
  6. Steve Holden

    Paddy Guest

    I find it much better than the current site, thank you!

    Whilst reading, http://beta.python.org/about/ I had some slight
    niggles.
    What do you think about the following changes?

    About Python

    Python is an agile programming language often compared to Tcl, Perl,
    Ruby, Scheme or Java. While it has much in common with them it also has
    unique features that set it apart.

    * remarkable power with very clear syntax
    * fully modular, with modules in individual files,
    or packages: a hierarchical arrangement of modules
    for larger projects.
    * intuitive object orientation, but also supports a
    functional style of programming too.
    * exception-based error handling
    * very high level dynamic data types that are easy to use.
    * interfaces to many system calls and libraries
    * access to multiple GUI toolkits (X11, Motif, Tk, Mac, MFC,
    wxWidgets)
    * extensions and modules easily written in C, C++ or Python
    * embeddable within applications needing a scripting interface

    - Paddy.
     
    Paddy, Jan 26, 2006
    #6
  7. Peter Maas wrote:

    > - The logo does indeed resemble a cross. How about rotating it at 45 deg
    > to make it look like an x? Or give it a circular shape? Please note
    > that there are no religious motives in this remark :)


    It looks like a plus sign to me. Do you also advocate renaming "C++" to
    "Cxx" or "C (circular shape) (circular shape)"?

    Also note that if you made it more of a circular shape, it might
    resemble a Ying-Yang symbol, and we would offend the anti-Daoist
    programmers. ;-)

    (Not that I like the logo, mind you. I just think that "looking like a
    cross" is a poor reason to bash it.)
     
    Rocco Moretti, Jan 26, 2006
    #7
  8. Steve Holden

    Peter Maas Guest

    Tony Meyer schrieb:
    >> - The logo does indeed resemble a cross. How about rotating it at 45 deg
    >> to make it look like an x? Or give it a circular shape? Please note
    >> that there are no religious motives in this remark :)

    >
    > -1. Then what are the motives?


    I don't like the shape. Snakes and right angles - it's a contradiction.
    This is just my personal taste.

    Peter Maas, Aachen
     
    Peter Maas, Jan 26, 2006
    #8
  9. Peter Maas wrote:
    > Tony Meyer schrieb:
    >
    >>> - The logo does indeed resemble a cross. How about rotating it at 45 deg
    >>> to make it look like an x? Or give it a circular shape? Please note
    >>> that there are no religious motives in this remark :)

    >>
    >>
    >> -1. Then what are the motives?

    >
    >
    > I don't like the shape. Snakes and right angles - it's a contradiction.
    > This is just my personal taste.

    I don't like the logo as it is, too.
    For my taste it is a bit too far away from what I have seen so far of
    Python related symbols and reminds too much a cross. It looks very
    commercial and has not the _fun_ and _ease_ in it I get used to face
    when dealing with Python related icons.
    The whole site is just as any other more or less commercial site and
    even if it is sure much better than the old one, I will probably miss
    the old one if it will go away.

    Claudio
    >
    > Peter Maas, Aachen
     
    Claudio Grondi, Jan 26, 2006
    #9
  10. Steve Holden

    James Stroud Guest

    Paddy wrote:
    > I find it much better than the current site, thank you!
    >
    > Whilst reading, http://beta.python.org/about/ I had some slight
    > niggles.
    > What do you think about the following changes?
    >
    > About Python
    >
    > Python is an agile programming language often compared to Tcl, Perl,
    > Ruby, Scheme or Java. While it has much in common with them it also has
    > unique features that set it apart.
    >
    > * remarkable power with very clear syntax
    > * fully modular, with modules in individual files,
    > or packages: a hierarchical arrangement of modules
    > for larger projects.
    > * intuitive object orientation, but also supports a
    > functional style of programming too.
    > * exception-based error handling
    > * very high level dynamic data types that are easy to use.
    > * interfaces to many system calls and libraries
    > * access to multiple GUI toolkits (X11, Motif, Tk, Mac, MFC,
    > wxWidgets)
    > * extensions and modules easily written in C, C++ or Python
    > * embeddable within applications needing a scripting interface
    >
    > - Paddy.
    >


    Maybe:

    "Python is an object oriented programming language designed to increase
    productivity. Though it is often compared to Perl, Tcl, Ruby, Scheme, or
    Java, it has several powerful features that set it apart."

    James
     
    James Stroud, Jan 26, 2006
    #10
  11. Steve Holden

    James Stroud Guest

    Rocco Moretti wrote:
    > (Not that I like the logo, mind you...)


    Does anyone? There has to be a better logo! I thought the previous
    requirement as established by the BDFL was no snakes. These are snakes,
    and they have no personality to boot.
     
    James Stroud, Jan 26, 2006
    #11
  12. Steve Holden

    James Stroud Guest

    Claudio Grondi wrote:
    > It looks very
    > commercial and has not the _fun_ and _ease_ in it I get used to face
    > when dealing with Python related icons.
    > The whole site is just as any other more or less commercial site and
    > even if it is sure much better than the old one, I will probably miss
    > the old one if it will go away.


    Yes. The home-page especially looks commercial. I'm expecting a
    registration screen and some place to agree to the terms and conditions
    of use and a checkbox to manually opt-out of mass emailings.

    Simple suggestion: Get a snazzy logo on the old site and, voila, you
    have the perfect python site.
     
    James Stroud, Jan 26, 2006
    #12
  13. Steve Holden

    Carl Banks Guest

    Roel Schroeven wrote:
    > Steve Holden schreef:
    > > How does
    > >
    > > http://beta.python.org/about/beginners/
    > >
    > > look?

    >
    > I think it's OK, apart from the fact that the font size of the text
    > overrides my browser's default. It looks and reads much better without
    > the font-size: 75%.


    I'll second this. Normally I keep my web browser at a narrow width to
    try to keep lines from being too long, but the lines here are a little
    too long even with a narrow window.

    (In fact, on my sites, I typically use a style such as this: TD {
    width: 30em; } to keep the text narrow. But I don't recommend that for
    this site because some people want wide text to fit more on the screen,
    aesthetic though it be not.)

    Other than that, it looks great. I don't think it looks like a
    corporate site; it's actually readable and usable. It cuts down on the
    sensory overload from the previous site. And, it passes the no-style
    litmus test (i.e.,whether you can still read and understand the site
    with the style sheets disabled.)

    Carl Banks
     
    Carl Banks, Jan 27, 2006
    #13
  14. newer success stories please...

    mt
     
    Michael Tobis, Jan 27, 2006
    #14
  15. I like the design, though I'd prefer stronger colors. I think it would
    be a major improvement except for the logo.

    I agree with others that the logo is a serious disappointment. Although
    the symmetry has some initial appeal, I do not see or want to see a
    two-ness about Python, and I find it disturbing and distracting even
    without the vague cruciform aspects. In fact, just keeping the top
    snake would be MUCH better.

    I want a logo I can be as enthusiastic about as I am about the
    language, but it will be hard to get unanimity about that, and I can
    certainly see the need to compromise. Still it's my impression that
    this one is a big mistake. Unlike, say, the Sun logo which I enjoy
    looking at (and of which this is a cheap ripoff), this is like the
    Microsoft Office logo, which I find explicitly off-putting, raising
    negative associations. I might be convinced that its wrongness will
    outweigh all the remaining benefits of the redesign.

    Good: http://cswww.essex.ac.uk/PLANET/summer-school-02/sun-logo-new.GIF

    Makes you think of cleverness, symmetry, networking, collaboration,
    energy. It reinforces my positive feelings toward this company.

    Bad: http://www.genbeta.com/archivos/images/logo_office_2003.jpg

    Makes you think about petty politics, imbalance, who gets the window
    office, injustice, asymmetry, deformity. I detest this logo, and it
    reinforces my avoidance of this company.

    Bad: http://beta.python.org/images/python-logo.gif

    Nice font on the text, but the image raises:

    What is that animal? Is it a snake? If it is, why is it so short? Why
    are there two of them? Or is it one snake with two heads? Ewww. Why is
    one facing backwards and the other upside-down? Is that a crucifix? Why
    would someone make a cross out of snakes? These are people to avoid.

    Very unsatisfactory, sorry.

    mt
     
    Michael Tobis, Jan 27, 2006
    #15
  16. Steve Holden

    Paul Boddie Guest

    Michael Tobis wrote:
    > I like the design, though I'd prefer stronger colors. I think it would
    > be a major improvement except for the logo.


    [Much reasoning about logos, Sun, Microsoft Office...]

    With the nice font they've used, I don't understand why they didn't
    turn the "p" into a snake itself. I'm sure I've seen that done
    somewhere before.

    Paul
     
    Paul Boddie, Jan 27, 2006
    #16
  17. Steve Holden

    Steve Holden Guest

    Paddy wrote:
    > I find it much better than the current site, thank you!
    >
    > Whilst reading, http://beta.python.org/about/ I had some slight
    > niggles.
    > What do you think about the following changes?
    >
    > About Python
    >
    > Python is an agile programming language often compared to Tcl, Perl,
    > Ruby, Scheme or Java. While it has much in common with them it also has
    > unique features that set it apart.
    >
    > * remarkable power with very clear syntax
    > * fully modular, with modules in individual files,
    > or packages: a hierarchical arrangement of modules
    > for larger projects.
    > * intuitive object orientation, but also supports a
    > functional style of programming too.
    > * exception-based error handling
    > * very high level dynamic data types that are easy to use.
    > * interfaces to many system calls and libraries
    > * access to multiple GUI toolkits (X11, Motif, Tk, Mac, MFC,
    > wxWidgets)
    > * extensions and modules easily written in C, C++ or Python
    > * embeddable within applications needing a scripting interface
    >

    I decided to go with:

    Python is an agile programming language often compared to Tcl, Perl,
    Ruby, Scheme or Java.
    While it has much in common with them it also has unique features that
    set it apart.

    * remarkable power with very clear syntax
    * full modularity, supporting hierarchical packages
    * intuitive object orientation
    * natural expression of procedural code
    * exception-based error handling
    * very high level dynamic data types
    * interfaces to many system calls and libraries
    * access to multiple GUI toolkits (X11, Motif, Tk, Mac, MFC, wxWidgets)
    * extensions and modules easily written in C, C++ or Python
    * embeddable within applications needing a scripting interface

    Thanks for your remarks. All readers please note we are looking for
    editors for this stuff!

    regards
    Steve
    --
    Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119
    Holden Web LLC www.holdenweb.com
    PyCon TX 2006 www.python.org/pycon/
     
    Steve Holden, Jan 27, 2006
    #17
  18. Steve Holden

    Magnus Lycka Guest

    >> Python is an agile programming language often compared to Tcl, Perl,
    >> Ruby, Scheme or Java. While it has much in common with them it also has
    >> unique features that set it apart.


    James Stroud wrote:
    > Maybe:
    >
    > "Python is an object oriented programming language designed to increase
    > productivity. Though it is often compared to Perl, Tcl, Ruby, Scheme, or
    > Java, it has several powerful features that set it apart."


    Definitely better. The first text seems to define Python through
    comparision, and that doesn't show a lot of confidence for mature
    language like Python. (It's one thing if it was much younger than
    the others, but it's somewhere in the middle of that group.)

    Agile might be a better buzz-word than object oriented though.
     
    Magnus Lycka, Jan 27, 2006
    #18
  19. Michael Tobis wrote:

    > I like the design, though I'd prefer stronger colors. I think it would
    > be a major improvement except for the logo.
    >
    ><big snip>


    So, are you saying you don't like the new logo?

    I'm with you. I don't like it either. It looks like a diagram out of the
    well known Anguine Kama Sutra.

    The new site, however is very nice. Top marks for that.
    --
    Dale Strickland-Clark
    Riverhall Systems www.riverhall.co.uk
     
    Dale Strickland-Clark, Jan 27, 2006
    #19
  20. Steve Holden

    Kay Schluehr Guest

    The new Python site is incredibly boring. Sorry to say this. The old
    site is/was amateurish but engaged. Now after ~15 years of existence
    Pythons looks like it wants to be popular among directors of a german
    job centers. It aims to do everything right but what could be said
    worse? The text on the beginners page tries to argue with the potential
    users in a pointless monologue. Who wants to read this text? Who wants
    to be convinced that Python is *not* slow? "Do you stop beating your
    wife?" And where is fun, irony and black humour? Why Python? "Python in
    industry" - I see chimneys of 19th century factories, proletarian
    heroes as well as futuristic hybrid robots superseeding humanity.
    "Python community" - a dutch grand-family photo from the beginning of
    the 20ths century - some ( or all? ) of the members are accidentally
    looking like Guido, "Python in science" - snake-like RNA strand. It
    need not be like this but I wonder about the total lack of personality.


    Kay
     
    Kay Schluehr, Jan 27, 2006
    #20
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