Beware: Sun disabling the Microsoft VM

[segalsegal]

I filed a bug report about Firefox hanging after running Java applets
(details at http://support.mozilla.com/en-US/kb/Firefox+hangs) and the
folks at Sun asked me to uninstall JRE 1.7 build 41 and test to see if
the problem occurs in JRE 1.6 Update 11.

I downgraded my Java version as requested, and was surprised to
discover that it disables Internet Explorer from running the Microsoft
VM, which we use for a variety of purposes, including recording demo
videos (Sun has never come close to the performance of the decade-old
MS VM).

Previously and in all the JRE 1.7 builds, after installing the Sun JVM
it was possible to use the Microsoft VM by going into Internet
Explorer's "Internet Options | Advanced" item "Java (Sun)" and
unchecking the checkbox "Use JRE 1.7.0 for <applet>". That checkbox
is gone in JRE 1.6 Update 11, and if you go into the Sun Java console
the "Default Java for browsers" item is selected and grayed out
(inactive) for Internet Explorer. Running javacpl.exe as an
administrator in Vista didn't fix the problem. As a result, there
seems to be no way to re-enable the MS VM.

I don't know if this is a bug or decision by Sun to disable the MS VM,
but developers should know about this issue and beware.

 

[Lew]

I filed a bug report about Firefox hanging after running Java applets
(details at http://support.mozilla.com/en-US/kb/Firefox+hangs) and the
folks at Sun asked me to uninstall JRE 1.7 build 41 and test to see if
the problem occurs in JRE 1.6 Update 11.

I downgraded my Java version as requested, and was surprised to
discover that it disables Internet Explorer from running the Microsoft
VM, which we use for a variety of purposes, including recording demo
videos (Sun has never come close to the performance of the decade-old
MS VM).

Previously and in all the JRE 1.7 builds, after installing the Sun JVM
it was possible to use the Microsoft VM by going into Internet
Explorer's "Internet Options | Advanced" item "Java (Sun)" and
unchecking the checkbox "Use JRE 1.7.0 for <applet>".  That checkbox
is gone in JRE 1.6 Update 11, and if you go into the Sun Java console
the "Default Java for browsers" item is selected and grayed out
(inactive) for Internet Explorer.  Running javacpl.exe as an
administrator in Vista didn't fix the problem.  As a result, there
seems to be no way to re-enable the MS VM.

I don't know if this is a bug or decision by Sun to disable the MS VM,
but developers should know about this issue and beware.

I have JRE 1.6.0_11 on this Windows XP Professional, SP 2, machine,
and I just opened Internet Explorer 6.0, SP 2, menu "Tools / Internet
Options", tab "Advanced", and there is a checkbox (currently checked,
but active and not greyed out) entitled "Java (Sun): Use JRE 1.6.0_11
for <applet> (requires restart)", so it must not be a thing that Sun
or Java does.

I'll check on my Vista box later, but it looks like a non-existent
issue, or at least a non-Sun issue, so far.

 

[segalsegal]

I have JRE 1.6.0_11 on this Windows XP Professional, SP 2, machine,
and I just opened Internet Explorer 6.0, SP 2, menu "Tools / Internet
Options", tab "Advanced", and there is a checkbox (currently checked,
but active and not greyed out) entitled "Java (Sun): Use JRE 1.6.0_11
for <applet> (requires restart)", so it must not be a thing that Sun
or Java does.

I'll check on my Vista box later, but it looks like a non-existent
issue, or at least a non-Sun issue, so far.

Here is another report running into part of the same problem:
http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=6486929. It was
reported on Vista - that may be important.

 

[Roedy Green]

I don't know if this is a bug or decision by Sun to disable the MS VM,
but developers should know about this issue and beware.

Microsoft itself has disowned the VM. It violates the conditions of
licence. It could be looked on as a piece of malware.

You are the only person I know still attempting to keep code running
on it.

--
Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
http://mindprod.com
PM Steven Harper is fixated on the costs of implementing Kyoto, estimated as high as 1% of GDP.
However, he refuses to consider the costs of not implementing Kyoto which the
famous economist Nicholas Stern estimated at 5 to 20% of GDP

 

[Lew]

Here is another report running into part of the same problem:

It was reported on Vista - that may be important.

That is the bug referenced in the release notes for Java 6, one of the
first places to check for such compatibility issues:

Java Control Panel: Under the advanced tab, the Default Java for
browser checkboxes does not work for a standard user.
To workaround the issue, you will need to run the Java Control
Panel as an administrator.

See bug report 6486929 for more information.

The IE part of what you described is not listed in those release
notes, though.

 

[Lew]

Microsoft itself has disowned the VM.  It violates the conditions of
licence.  It could be looked on as a piece of malware.

According to microsoft.com
<http://windowshelp.microsoft.com/Windows/en-US/Help/
59c3a93d-1342-43a6-a01a-f720c7a17ffc1033.mspx>

To run Java programs in Internet Explorer,
special Java software needs to be installed and enabled.

When the Java virtual machine is installed in Internet Explorer,
Java is enabled by default and configured with safety settings at their highest.
If you do not have Java installed, visit the Java.com
website to download the free Java software.

This seems to confirm what Roedy said, albeit only inferentially. One
wouldn't need Java "to be installed and enabled" if Microsoft Vista
already included it.

To use the Java Control Panel, and who knows? perhaps the IE Java
option, one must run as the administrator.

 

[Arne Vajhøj]

According to microsoft.com
<http://windowshelp.microsoft.com/Windows/en-US/Help/
59c3a93d-1342-43a6-a01a-f720c7a17ffc1033.mspx>

This seems to confirm what Roedy said, albeit only inferentially. One
wouldn't need Java "to be installed and enabled" if Microsoft Vista
already included it.

MS stopped distributing Java February 3rd 2003 according to:
http://www.mvps.org/marksxp/WindowsXP/java.php

Arne

 

[Arne Vajhøj]

Microsoft itself has disowned the VM. It violates the conditions of
licence.
Yes.

It could be looked on as a piece of malware.

No. Not per standard definitions of malware. Malware and not properly
licenses software is not the same.

You are the only person I know still attempting to keep code running
on it.

I don't think he is the only one.

There are code out there that rely on the MS extras.

But I would consider it a security risk to use the MS JVM. MS stopped
with security updates more than a year ago.

Arne

 

[segalsegal]

To use the Java Control Panel, and who knows? perhaps the IE Java
option, one must run as the administrator.

As stated in the original post, I did run the Java Control panel as an
administrator (and also from an administrator account), yet the
Internet Explorer option was grayed out.

 

[Arne Vajhøj]

I downgraded my Java version as requested, and was surprised to
discover that it disables Internet Explorer from running the Microsoft
VM, which we use for a variety of purposes, including recording demo
videos (Sun has never come close to the performance of the decade-old
MS VM).

Hmm. For some things SUN Java passed MS Java in performance
when going from 1.3.1 to 1.4.2.

Using MS Java on the internet would be a severe security risk, because
MS does not provide security fixes any more.

Arne

 

[segalsegal]

For some things SUN Java passed MS Java in performance
when going from 1.3.1 to 1.4.2.

On calculations the Sun JVM is similar to the Microsoft VM. However,
on GUI operations Microsoft has always had a huge advantage and Sun
has never come close. The difference is quite striking. Of course
Microsoft has an advantage due to use of native components, but one
would expect Apple to have the same advantage, but the Macintosh JVM
has a similar slowness to the Sun JVM. This was quite a missed
opportunity for Apple.

 

[Andrew Thompson]

...
I downgraded my Java version as requested, and was surprised to
discover that it disables Internet Explorer from running the Microsoft
VM, ...

I lost access to the MSVM on my main box some
time ago when there was an (all-too-common)
complete failure of the disk requiring a system
reload. It is only used for testing purposes,
but it is a hassle not to have it available.

Perhaps you should consider getting a purpose
built box with only the MSVM on it, and never
upgrade it.

..which we use for a variety of purposes,
including recording demo videos (Sun has
never come close to the performance of
the decade-old MS VM).

For all its hassles and problems, the MSVM was
blazingly fast.

 

[John B. Matthews]

On calculations the Sun JVM is similar to the Microsoft VM. However,
on GUI operations Microsoft has always had a huge advantage and Sun
has never come close. The difference is quite striking. Of course
Microsoft has an advantage due to use of native components, but one
would expect Apple to have the same advantage, but the Macintosh JVM
has a similar slowness to the Sun JVM. This was quite a missed
opportunity for Apple.

This has not been my experience. I see excellent performance,
especially for graphics, even on older Macs. I also value the cross-
platform compatibility. SWT, which has more native components, is not
especially faster. Both Swing and SWT benefit from Quartz precision,
but I prefer the Aqua LAF in Swing. Side-byside, NetBeans (Swing) and
Eclispe (SWT) run acceptably, but both do better with plenty of memory.

Running this animation example on Mac OS, I see about 12ms/frame on 1GHz
PPC and about half that on 2GHz Intel:

<http://sites.google.com/site/drjohnbmatthews/kineticmodel>

I'm guessing other implementations are comparable.

 

[Arne Vajhøj]

I lost access to the MSVM on my main box some
time ago when there was an (all-too-common)
complete failure of the disk requiring a system
reload. It is only used for testing purposes,
but it is a hassle not to have it available.

Maybe you could find it somewhere.

Arne

 

[segalsegal]

Maybe you could find it somewhere.

At http://www.softwarepatch.com/windows/javavm.html is see build 3810
of the Microsoft VM. I've been running build 3805, which seems to
work fine. I don't use Internet Explorer for regular Web browsing; I
just use it for testing or for running the Microsoft VM.

BTW, the folks at Sun asked me to do some testing and the problem with
not being able to disable the Sun JVM in Internet Explorer is present
in both 6U11 and 6U10, but absent in 6U7 and all the 7 builds I've
tried.

Do others without the MS VM installed see the same two parts of this
problem that I reported:
1. In the Sun Java Console, in the "Default Java for browsers" item
the checkbox for Microsoft Internet Explorer is grayed out.
2. No "Java (Sun)" item in Internet Options | Advanced in Internet
Explorer.

I've tested on Vista with both IE7 and the IE8 beta.

 

[tinnickels]

I was experiencing the same problems trying to use MSJVM in IE with
Sun Java 1.6.0_11 installed on Vista SP1. No checkbox in Internet
Options->Advanced to disable Sun JRE. Java Console had the Internet
Explorer check box selected and grayed out.

To fix this, edit the following 2 registry values (adjusted for the
current version):
HKLM\Software\JavaSoft\Java Plug-in\1.6.0_11\UseJava2IExplorer = 0
HKLM\Software\JavaSoft\Java Runtime Environment\1.6.0_11\IEXPLORER = 0

No reboot required. Worked for me. IE now uses the MSJVM and Mozilla
and everything else can use Sun's.

**As always, make registry changes with extreme caution and after
backing up the key.