Blowing the doors to Palm - Java programming for Tungsten handhelds

U

username

asj said:
yes, please do run away when you suddenly find yourself forced into an
indefensible position.

and what happened to the rest of the post? you know, where i show that
java can actually give you an ROI (return on investment) less than
microsoft technology? or that even microsoft developers are complaining
about being on an endless treadmill as it continues to churn away its
technology?

ah, that part, well that was relevant, but it did not contain anything new
and did not contribute to the discussion, so..... I ignored it (as we all
read it before, and we all read all answers to it)
 
C

Carlos Bazzarella

Wow thanks for mentioning the obvious and taking everything I said
literarly. Notice I mentioned no comments for SAP and Sega.
After everything I said and pointed out to, I figure you
would be smart enough not to point ME the obvious educational links.
Remember I am a real developer of Java based handheld/cell phone
apps with real apps. Hey, I am going to read blueboard as if it
was the gospel, NOT !!! You sound like an enthusiast and not like
a professional with real world experience. RIM is my next door
neighbour and I know a lot about what goes on there. You seem to
beleive everything you need, trying doing stuff and you will figure
out that the real world is not like the marketing hype.


Carlos.
 
A

asj

username said:
ah, that part, well that was relevant, but it did not contain anything new
and did not contribute to the discussion, so..... I ignored it (as we all
read it before, and we all read all answers to it)


really? for someone who supposedly read it before, you seem display an
amazing lack of ability to understand it.
i'd say it's more in the line of not having any argument to counter the
points.

please, mr. "username", go back to the anonymity from whence you
came....
 
B

Bent C Dalager

yes, please do run away when you suddenly find yourself forced into an
indefensible position.

and what happened to the rest of the post?

I find it ironic that the only part of your post that he actually
responded to was the part he claims to have ignored.

Cheers
Bent D
 
A

asj

hardware makers? SAP is the largest software company in europe (if not
the largest) and sega one of the largest video game companies in the
world. IBM, just in case you forgot, is both a hardware and software
company, while RIM does make its own software (in fact, RIM turned its
Blackberry into a pure Java machine and recoded its built-in
applications in Java).

i suggest you learn more before making general statements like you have.
(although again, i see your points with regards to compatibility
problems in MIDP 1 - but things can only get better as these problems
are addressed in later versions)....

one initial stop might be at the Lurker's Guide to J2ME:
http://www.blueboard.com/j2me/

here's an example of the above:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SAP, Sharp to build J2ME applications that deliver real-time data across
corporate networks
(Internet News 2003-7-7)

Enterprise software company SAP AG and Japanese electronics giant Sharp
have teamed up in order to build applications that deliver real-time
data across corporate networks to smaller mobile devices.

The applications will be designed using open source operating system
Linux and Java-based programming protocols, in an expansion of the
companies' support for non-Windows-based software and vendors.

The deal marks yet another company embracing open-source operating
systems in the development of enterprise-focused applications. Mobile
phone and electronics giant Motorola recently threw its weight behind
Linux-based mobile device and software development.

The support of major companies like SAP, Sharp and Motorola gives the
Linux-based mobile operating system a boost at a time when it is
increasingly seen as a threat to Microsoft's proprietary Windows CE
mobile device operating system, as well as alternatives offered by
VxWorks and Palm
 
C

Carlos Bazzarella

username said:
Is there any product that companies like IBM is NOT
using/supporting/developing?
Hence, the fact that companies like IBM are supporting java does not support
your case.


sure, but this is not java specific or even related, hence this will not
give java the edge over the competition.

I beleive Java has the potential to beat the competiton but current
implementation basically sucks !!! Even today when we run our Formulae 1
(MIDP 1.0) version on different implementations we come across childish
bugs in the implementation that basically points out that this technology
is not mature or was even properly tested or actually used by outside
developers. Take a look a Nokia's implementation of MIDP 1.0 for Series
60 devices. Read the forums; did you know that you can not use color
when drawing text on a background buffer. It is a current bug. Also
clipping text on a background buffer doesn't work. These bugs are there
today and they released their version of MIDP 1.0 a couple of years
ago (2001 I beleive). As a professional developer this sucks and points
to immature technology. Oh yeah things will always get better but
J2ME was originally hyped in 1999 and 4 years later the hype of then
doesn't meet the reality of today !!! Successful stuff, I think not.

Oh yeah before I forget, Sun has this new combined industry initiative
to help QA J2ME end user apps with Nokia, Motorola and a few other
players (don't quote me on the usual suspects here) but I should just
tell them to test their own Java implementations before they force
developers to test their apps. How can developers get their apps.
running on so many devices when these devices have so many bugs !!!
Clean your house before you invite others in to offer cleaning
services to them !!!


Carlos.
 
U

username

asj said:
is SHARP big enough? what about SAP? what about IBM? what about SEGA?
what about RIM?

Is there any product that companies like IBM is NOT
using/supporting/developing?
Hence, the fact that companies like IBM are supporting java does not support
your case.
as the market matures, i'm sure consolidation of the various and many
small players will occur and result in a few very large software houses.
that's just how life works.

sure, but this is not java specific or even related, hence this will not
give java the edge over the competition.
 
U

username

asj said:
hardware makers? SAP is the largest software company in europe (if not
the largest) and sega one of the largest video game companies in the
world. IBM, just in case you forgot, is both a hardware and software
company, while RIM does make its own software (in fact, RIM turned its
Blackberry into a pure Java machine and recoded its built-in
applications in Java).

ok, so ignore his statement that SAP etc are hardware makers. Then the rest
of his excellent posting still holds, and contains many good points. Respond
to them
 
U

username

asj said:
yep

for someone who supposedly read it before, you seem display an
amazing lack of ability to understand it.

I am sorry you feel that way, I suggest you re-read this whole thread and
then explain yourself better.
i'd say it's more in the line of not having any argument to counter the
points.

thats not a strong argument mr asj. Try again.
please, mr. "username", go back to the anonymity from whence you
came....

well, mr asj, the only reason you are known here, is that you flood
newsgroups with java ramblings. be proud of that.
 
A

asj

username said:
Is there any product that companies like IBM is NOT
using/supporting/developing?
Hence, the fact that companies like IBM are supporting java does not support
your case.


(1) IBM is only 1 example; you fail to address the fact there are many
big software vendors that are creating J2ME apps;
(2) since even IBM has finite resources, it sure would not be able to
support everything...IBM is spending about 10x the amount of money on
java that sun is, and its support of j2me is very strong....does ibm
create .NET software? does it dabble in window ce apps? does it create
palm software to the extent that it uses j2me? NO.

your original intent was to disparage j2me by commenting that no large
outfits develop java based software for phones/handheld....i showed some
examples of some VERY big outfits that do develop j2me apps. is there
any point discussing this further beyond the nitpicking that you are
doing?
 
U

username

asj said:
(1) IBM is only 1 example; you fail to address the fact there are many
big software vendors that are creating J2ME apps;

why should I adress this? I agree with this, so?
(2) since even IBM has finite resources, it sure would not be able to
support everything...

uh, please realise that "all the hardware" is also finite at any point of
time....
IBM is spending about 10x the amount of money on
java that sun is, and its support of j2me is very strong....does ibm
create .NET software? does it dabble in window ce apps? does it create
palm software to the extent that it uses j2me? NO.

are you sure?
your original intent was to disparage j2me by commenting that no large
outfits develop java based software for phones/handheld...

not true
.i showed some
examples of some VERY big outfits that do develop j2me apps. is there
any point discussing this further beyond the nitpicking that you are
doing?

with you? no.
 
U

username

asj said:
carlos:

you mentioned there were no big companies supporting and developing j2me
apps - i pointed otherwise, but really apologize if i made you angry
with the "read the freakin' manual" type response. must be too late in
the day...time to go home.

go home??? Seeing the vast amount of postings (and the contents of them) you
are making, it seems to me that:
- you are un-employed, sitting at home with flat-rate internet connectivity,
with a blind faith in java, or
- you are employed: paid to do java advocacy from 9 to 5.
 
J

John D.

asj said:
John D. wrote:

feature limited? where exactly did i mention you should limit your
features?

If you want it to be portable you will have to make trade-offs.
Let's say you have touch-screen handheld and smartphone applications.
Do you design single application that takes advantage of touch screen
at expense of cluttering smartphone application with redundant on-screen
controls or do you optimize it for smartphone at expense of application
usability on the touch screen? Or do you write 2 separate applications
for each device? Java or no Java, bridging the differences in
underlying hardware isn't always possible.
there's a much greater chance of microsoft and other proprietary
technologies fading away or being made legacy than java doing the same.

Oh yeah? How about this list?
http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4.1/docs/api/deprecated-list.html
 
T

The Ghost In The Machine

In comp.lang.java.advocacy, asj
<[email protected]>
wrote
sounds like you've never actually used java a lot (other than playing
with applets perhaps).

eBay is building its ENTIRE infrastructure on J2EE (it dumped
microsoft's .NET in favor of a more RPBUST solution):

What's their timetable? My last probe (a day or two ago)
indicates their frontends are happily running IIS/4.
I'll admit they'll probably be the last to go once the
infrastructure has undergone widescale testing -- flip
the DNS and everyone's now happy applets. Or more likely
servlets.

And IIS is supposed to be version 5 or so at latest rev. I don't
know if IIS 6 is out or not.

(I'm not sure I care... :) )

[rest snipped]
 
A

asj

ok, so ignore his statement that SAP etc are hardware makers. Then the rest
of his excellent posting still holds, and contains many good points. Respond
to them

what other comments? he went over the list of companies i gave and tried
to show they did not do j2me app development. i showed otherwise (for
RIM, sharp, whatever). for example, i posted that article showing sharp
and SAP joining forces to create enterprise j2me apps and noted that RIM
has its blackberry completely java-based.

you STILL make no points no matter which thread you join! give it up....
 
A

asj

username said:
I am sorry you feel that way, I suggest you re-read this whole thread and
then explain yourself better.


uh....so you can snip off 90% of the arguments that you can't counter?

like where i show that java can actually give you an ROI (return on
investment) much less than
microsoft technology, after you idiotically seemed to think fostering a
long term relationship with clients would somehow COST more if done in
java?

or that even microsoft developers are complaining about being on an
endless treadmill as microsoft continues to churn away its
technology every few years, while java's core has remained the same
since the beginning, simply expanding rapidly into other niches? this
way, developers can concentrate on creating better apps through
optimization or better architectures rather than having to worry that
they'll have to relearn new basic rules again every few years. plus, you
don't suddenly end up wasting years of learning and become one the
"newbies" after some newfangled language is "forced" on you (when your
expertise suddenly is now legacy).

well, mr asj, the only reason you are known here, is that you flood
newsgroups with java ramblings. be proud of that.


uh...that's not what i meant...i meant the fact that you are anonymous
in your postings.
 
M

me


I know you're a WinCE etc. advocate, but you're not really that dumb
or ignorant are you? Think. HARD!

(Then again, you _are_ a WinCE advocate, so maybe you really do need
a hint. = Compare your activities to the ones you denigrated in your
post. I realize there are a lot of polysyllabic words in there, but
maybe you could use one of your WinCE dictionaries to get the
definitions in a week or two)
 
U

username

asj said:
what other comments? he went over the list of companies i gave and tried
to show they did not do j2me app development. i showed otherwise (for
RIM, sharp, whatever). for example, i posted that article showing sharp
and SAP joining forces to create enterprise j2me apps and noted that RIM
has its blackberry completely java-based.

no you showed some marketing announcements, stories etc. there is a
difference between that and reality, are you aware of that?
you STILL make no points no matter which thread you join! give it up....

no, please do not give up, enlighten us with your ramblings!
 

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