Blowing the doors to Palm - Java programming for Tungsten handhelds

U

username

asj said:
perhaps you should listen to the adage that it is a wise man indeed who
knows how the wind shifts, and does something about it.

think about that!
the original argument was whether any big companies were using
j2me....with your statement above, you pretty much did a complete about
turn and admitted EVERYONE is using java.

not a turn: I never claimed the opposite (please reread the complete thread)
in fact, everybody does something with C/C++ as well.
now, as to WHY that's important, here's a CLUE...guess what, maybe
living with yo mama means you can do away with earning a living, but in
the REAL world us normal folk have to earn a living, and it sure
gladdens this java programmer's heart to see so many job opportunities
for people who take the time to learn java.

fine, of course there are java job opportunities, but that does not mean the
end of PDA's or the end of wince or whatever you seem to be dreaming about.
the fact that java is used does not support you claims of world dominance of
java at all! now try again.
hmmm. perhaps again it's because the original argument was that NO BIG
COMPANY DEVELOPED USING J2ME.

nope, not my argument. please re-read the complete thread before making
statements like this.
hint: I have written several times that in fact I work at a very big
company, and we do develop (server-side) java apps, but then, we develop
using all platforms/languages you can think of, so that does not make java
special at all.
i guess you're folding on this point as well, eh?

not yet, try again.
i mean, c'mon now, give me some real competition here....you SCREW up
BIGTIME by somehow thinking it would COST MORE TO HAVE A LONG TERM
RELATIONSHIP WITH A CLIENT BY USING JAVA, then now you ADMIT EVERYONE IS
USING JAVA when the original argument was that NO big company was using
it.

problem with your caps lock?
hey man, at least make me sweat here...eh?

you sound pretty frustrated already
see above. again, the original argument was that NO BIG COMPANY
DEVELOPED USING J2ME.

whose argument is that? you seem to confuse me with someone else? try again.
 
U

username

asj said:
<SNIP>

username:
if you look at the thread, you mentioned earlier that carlos made good
points when he noted no big software vendors created j2me apps...

no no, here make a mistake. All I said was that he made good points in his
posting. Never did I say the no big software vendors create j2me apps. Read
carefully please, you are, in all honesty, making a bit of a fool of
yourself here.
i (as
well as any rational person) would take this to mean you agreed with his
points.

I agreed on points in his postings, thats true. so?
you also said those examples were simply "marketing"
announcements. when thumped on the head and corrected, you did an abrupt
about turn and noted that, hey , EVERYONE does java, so what?

nope, you are not getting it. You are twisting the facts, please try again.
let me count the OTHER ways you have discredited yourself here:

(1) you screwed up BIGTIME by declaring that maintaining a long term
relationship with clients using Java would be more expensive.

I never claimed that. I agree that that was what YOU concluded from my
postings, so who is screwing up bigtime?
i pointed
out that there are so many open source implementations of java tools
(e.g. IDEs) and web app servers that it is very easy to get a much
higher ROI for java-based projects than using microsoft, which after
all, needs to make money by charging an arm and a leg for licenses.

well you said that, but you never convinced us, so why repeating your
arguments? try something else.
(2) You display an amazing inability to grasp what other developers who
have to EARN A LIVING know...you ask: "java is everywhere, so what?" the
"so what" is that, if you are a java developer, that means you can put
bread (or rice) on the table...the more ubiquitous java is, the better
it is for java developers. got that?

yes, exactly, that was my point. I also said that C/C++ is everywhere, so
your arguments are not java specific at all. therefore your conclusion,
which is java specific can not be true. think about it please (before you
post an answer)
(3) you declared all java apps to be buggy,

no I never claimed that.
then are exposed as being
one who probably has never written a single java code in your life.

I was not exposed like that (it would impossible).
I agree that you said I was exposed etc, but hey, who cares?
plus, you obviously have not heard that most high end enterprise
projects actually use java....eBAY is using java to do hundreds of
millions of transactions every day....if we just look at two Java web
app servers:

wrong, in fact I said I was working for one of the big companies doing
serverside java projects. Did yo conveniently forget about that posting?
sad....
PLEASE, continue your one-liners so i can continue to add to my list -
or do the smart thing for once and just thank god you are posting as an
anonymous coward.

thank you!
 
A

asj

username said:
no no, here make a mistake. All I said was that he made good points in his
posting. Never did I say the no big software vendors create j2me apps. Read
carefully please, you are, in all honesty, making a bit of a fool of
yourself here.



so he was wrong, BUT he made good points? make up your mind....
this is almost too easy. are you Dutch? is that why you can't seem to
grasp simple terms and arguments? anyways, i posted your actual comments
below. i think it's time for you to get a new handle.


I never claimed that. I agree that that was what YOU concluded from my
postings, so who is screwing up bigtime?



"ask your user (after you told him how expensive your solution is)"

source:
http://groups.google.com/[email protected]


no I never claimed that.


"sounds like you never tried java apps.... they are very platform
specific
(or better put: JVM specific) and buggy!"

source:
http://groups.google.com/[email protected]
 
M

me

don't be so rediculous. are you an internet newbie? You are aware internet
is also available outside the UK?

tip: try an american dictionary

Not unless you count 10+ years as a newbie, and if you were capable of
reading headers you'd already know I'm posting from outside the UK,
but then you don't pay much attention to the details of other posts
that don't coincide with your prejudices, do you?

As for using an American dictionary as an authority on English - Uck!,
Gag!, Vomit! I'll stick with the authoritative sources if it's all the
same to you, and even if it isn't. I've been around too long to
consider trans-Atlantic mangling of the richest language in the world
acceptable.

But you might wish to check either the Oxbridge, or even any American
dictionary sources which appeal to you, to see if you can find a
single one which spells ridiculous as "rediculous". Maybe you'd have
better luck with a Communist one? :)

However this is getting way off topic and, entertaining as it is, it's
really not my job to correct the obvious deficiencies in your early
childhood education and character development. Maybe you could find a
willing nanny somewhere who could take you back to the toilet training
stage?

EOT (May be available in an American dictionary or compilation of
Internet abbreviations, though should be obvious to anyone but a
"newbie". If not, bounce your two grey cells off each other long
enough and you'll probably come up with the meaning)

G'day Mate!, Au revoir, Auf wiedersehn, Hasta la vista, Arriverderci,
Sod OFF!
 
M

me

is http://www.cogsci.princeton.edu/~wn/ more convincing to you?

Of course we can discuss the definition of language. Is it the list of words
in a book written by someone you blindly follow or is the the
language/wording actual people use?
That would rather depend on who was using it. In this case I think
your use of it would prima facie indicate that it probably wasn't
correct.
hm, in fact this is interesting, and I now see the relevance of this to this
thread: blind java purists against real world people.
interesting, thank you!

From my position at least this has nothing whatever to do with java,
just the mandatory Usenet disciplining of an obvious troll and idiot.
 
U

username

asj said:
so he was wrong, BUT he made good points? make up your mind....
this is almost too easy. are you Dutch? is that why you can't seem to
grasp simple terms and arguments? anyways, i posted your actual comments
below. i think it's time for you to get a new handle.




"ask your user (after you told him how expensive your solution is)"

source:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl3252858976d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe
=UTF-8&selm=3f2a93da%240%2449109%24e4fe514c%40news.xs4all.nl

so? I never compared the costs/benefits of using Java to another language. I
merely stated that it is user dependent (that's why I said "ask your user").
get it?

I only said that java apps are buggy, meaning "having a tendency to have
bugs in them". Put like that it is a general statement (and true)
"sounds like you never tried java apps.... they are very platform
specific
(or better put: JVM specific) and buggy!"

source:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl1286748788d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe
=UTF-8&selm=3f2969d9%240%2449106%24e4fe514c%40news.xs4all.nl

exactly!

so, you know how re-read messages in this thread! excellent, please
continue, I think it will be useful (to you).
 
C

Carlos Bazzarella

Ladies and Gentlemen,

Like Arnold uses to say... "I'm back !!!".

The point I would like to make is that it doesn't matter if large
and small companies are using J2ME and that everybody seem to be
supporting for one reason or another. My point is : Are there any
useful and necessary apps. that are made possible by J2ME or
is J2ME technically a disabilitating factor that prevents new
ideas to be developed for handheld/cell phone devices, due to lack
of performance, app size and APIs for example.


Carlos.
 
C

Carlos Bazzarella

username said:
same here, When I bought my psion5mx some years ago, it was marketed with
statements like "java enabled!!!", well, I never used its java capabilities.
I once tried a java app we developed in our company, but was very
disappointed: the UI looked completely different than on PC's, in fact the
UI was unusable. And it took minutes to just start the app. It was useless.
so java on that PDA was useless.
Now I have an IPAQ 3970, but never felt the need to install a JVM.

Applications are slowly driving the need to install the JVM. For example
if you want a CAS (Computer Algebra System) on your iPaq you will
definitively install the JVM. Check out some of our products !!! No speed
deamons but barely acceptable speed on a 200Mhz machine.

exactly. Java is (said to be) not hardware specific, but it is definately
(in my experience) JVM specific (although java advocates are denying this of
course).

Java apps are very JVM specific due to JVM implementation bugs and
inconsistencies.
 
U

username

asj said:
so he was wrong, BUT he made good points? make up your mind....

well you can be right about one thing, but wrong about another. You did not
know this?
it would explain some of your behaviour.....
this is almost too easy. are you Dutch?

my ISP is dutch. you are jumping to conclusions (again)
is that why you can't seem to
grasp simple terms and arguments?
nope

anyways, i posted your actual comments
below. i think it's time for you to get a new handle.

nah
 
A

asj

Carlos said:
Ladies and Gentlemen,

Like Arnold uses to say... "I'm back !!!".

The point I would like to make is that it doesn't matter if large
and small companies are using J2ME and that everybody seem to be
supporting for one reason or another. My point is : Are there any
useful and necessary apps. that are made possible by J2ME or
is J2ME technically a disabilitating factor that prevents new
ideas to be developed for handheld/cell phone devices, due to lack
of performance, app size and APIs for example.

Carlos.


hi carlos:

actually, it DOES matter that everyone is supporting it...ubiquity and
acceptance by an entire industry is almost always a guarantor(sic) of
ultimate success, much more so than the alleged technical superiority of
a competitor.

as an example, when j2ee first started out, there were many people
panning the new specs. however, many companies signed on to it anyways,
and this virtually guaranteed the success of j2ee in the long run.

in the same way, the fact that everyone and their mother is piling onto
j2me gives it a better chance of long term success than any one of the
proprietary closed os solutions.

with regards to "useful" apps (which i take it to mean enterprise apps):
why don't you do your homework and do some research to satisfy yourself?
beyond the games, there are many business applications out there,
including inventory control apps, location-aware apps, apps that can
manage corporate networks, etc.

you must remember that midp is not a solution that is standing
still.....as time passes, it will gain more capabilities
(performance-wise due to faster processors, app size die to more storage
in cellphones, and new APIs) and i'm sure complaints will switch to some
other aspect.......i would much rather have that situation than have a
perfect product that is so clearly superior to everything else but is
known or pushed by no one.
 
U

username

Not unless you count 10+ years as a newbie, and if you were capable of
reading headers you'd already know I'm posting from outside the UK,
so?

but then you don't pay much attention to the details of other posts
that don't coincide with your prejudices, do you?

I do, you didn't notice? well, never mind, it was just a detail.
As for using an American dictionary as an authority on English - Uck!

indeed! I hate that. who was suggesting that?!!!?
I was just suggesting to use an American dictionary as an authority of
American.
Gag!, Vomit! I'll stick with the authoritative sources if it's all the
same to you, and even if it isn't. I've been around too long to
consider trans-Atlantic mangling of the richest language in the world
acceptable.

thank you, very helpful.
But you might wish to check either the Oxbridge, or even any American
dictionary sources which appeal to you, to see if you can find a
single one which spells ridiculous as "rediculous". Maybe you'd have
better luck with a Communist one? :)

perhaps too much to ask, but do you know what a typo is ?
However this is getting way off topic and, entertaining as it is, it's
really not my job to correct the obvious deficiencies in your early
childhood education and character development.

no one asked you to do that. so you're free to leave.
really.
Maybe you could find a
willing nanny somewhere who could take you back to the toilet training
stage?

I am not interested in your kinks. Please use other newsgroups for that.
EOT (May be available in an American dictionary or compilation of
Internet abbreviations, though should be obvious to anyone but a
"newbie". If not, bounce your two grey cells off each other long
enough and you'll probably come up with the meaning)

G'day Mate!, Au revoir, Auf wiedersehn, Hasta la vista, Arriverderci,
Sod OFF!

a+
 
U

username

That would rather depend on who was using it. In this case I think
your use of it would prima facie indicate that it probably wasn't
correct.

that's a very odd statement! in fact it is contradictory!
From my position at least this has nothing whatever to do with java,
just the mandatory Usenet disciplining of an obvious troll and idiot.

I agree, but I would not go as far as to call "asj" an idiot.
 
U

username

asj said:
(1) IBM is only 1 example; you fail to address the fact there are many
big software vendors that are creating J2ME apps;
(2) since even IBM has finite resources, it sure would not be able to
support everything...IBM is spending about 10x the amount of money on
java that sun is, and its support of j2me is very strong....does ibm
create .NET software? does it dabble in window ce apps? does it create
palm software to the extent that it uses j2me? NO.

exactly!! and WHY does IBM support j2me and not palm? NOT because it is Java
(IBM is commercial, not religious), but because IBM is, among many other
things, big in serverside software!
Please do not repeat you're earlier mistakes, by concluding from this
statement that I am claiming the all serverside software is therefore Java
(I really suggest you follow some basic logic course)
your original intent was to disparage j2me by commenting that no large
outfits develop java based software for phones/handheld....

not true, but ok, let's read on....
i showed some
examples of some VERY big outfits that do develop j2me apps.

for handhelds? if not, then your argument is void (again)
is there
any point discussing this further beyond the nitpicking that you are
doing?

as stated earlier: with you? no.
 
A

asj

From my position at least this has nothing whatever to do with java,
just the mandatory Usenet disciplining of an obvious troll and idiot.


everyone has pretty much agreed on that ;-)

i can stomach trolls, if they actually have some points to make, but
arguing with someone who (1) switches discussions or snips off comments
when they have no counter arguments, (2) uses nonsensical one-liners
instead of reasoned arguments, and (3) outright LIES (then falls silent
when you use google to catch him) is a bit much.
 
A

asj

Carlos said:
It is nice to have industry support but it is in no way a guarantee
to success. As a recent example in the same industry look no further
than WAP !!!


never said it was...just meant i'd rather have that strong support than
a platform that no one supports - e.g. mophun.
but you do have a point.
By useful apps I mean innovated apps and not just enterprise apps. I
look at what can be done with the environment and what kinds of apps
can be developed with it and what kinds can not be possibly implemented
with it. Developers don't want to be restricted in what types of apps
they can create. With J2ME there is only a few rather simple
apps you can develop, now with C++ you can do a lot more, just look
at the quality of apps available for BREW compared with J2ME. Also


give examples of what types of apps you would like to see. i really am
interested.
 
C

Carlos Bazzarella

asj said:
never said it was...just meant i'd rather have that strong support than
a platform that no one supports - e.g. mophun.
but you do have a point.


give examples of what types of apps you would like to see. i really am
interested.

For PDAs/smartphones my vision would be to make them much more powerful than
the software available on handheld calculators. So interesting apps to
me would be a mini CAS with a nice interface, or a mini circuit simulator
(analog or digital), or a mini chemical drawing package, a mini dynamic
geometry package, etc, etc. Basically software for scientists, engineers
and students. These apps require the client device (PDA, cellphone) more
processing than what is currently expected from J2ME apps but we could today
implement them fine in C++.


Carlos.
 

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