Bobby and caption of a table

[Luigi Donatello Asero]

Do you understand this? I don´t.
"If this is a data table (not used for layout only), provide a caption. (2
instances)
Lines 147, 211-212 "
http://bobby.watchfire.com/bobby/bo...n3.html&output=Submit&gl=wcag1-aaa&test=#g250
I think that I already have a caption between line 210 and line 212

 

[David Dorward]

Do you understand this? I don´t.
"If this is a data table (not used for layout only), provide a caption.

That comes after the "you need to determine manually whether they apply and,
if applicable, whether your page meets the requirements".

<em>manually</em>

 

[Titus A Ducksass - Gran stopped chastising me so I]

Do you understand this? I don´t.
"If this is a data table (not used for layout only), provide a caption. (2
instances)
Lines 147, 211-212 "

That is within the user checks - as you already have one it isn't a
problem. However, the other stuff means provide a summary for every
table etc.

<table summary="Layout Table" ------ for layout

<table summary="Main menu" ------ for a menu table

<table summary="Price List Comparison" ------ for a price list
comparison

etc....

http://bobby.watchfire.com/bobby/bo...n3.html&output=Submit&gl=wcag1-aaa&test=#g250
I think that I already have a caption between line 210 and line 212

Try testing it with this http://webxact.watchfire.com/
You may find it easier.
--
It will be a great day when our schools have
all the money they need and the Air Force
has to hold a car boot sale to buy a new bomber.
-
It will be an even better day when schools teach children to read and write.

 

[Luigi Donatello Asero]

"Titus A Ducksass - Gran stopped chastising me so I changed back."

That is within the user checks - as you already have one it isn't a
problem. However, the other stuff means provide a summary for every
table etc.

<table summary="Layout Table" ------ for layout

<table summary="Main menu" ------ for a menu table

<table summary="Price List Comparison" ------ for a price list
comparison

etc....

Well, the table with the pictures and the area of each room has already a
summary. I tried to write another one but I am not sure which is better.
The same table also has <TH scope="col" and <td scope="row">
The table for the search engine has not yet.
There is one point about whether
the foreground and background colors contrast sufficiently with each other.
Is it the contrast within the colours in the photo or between the background
of the page and the colours of the photos which is meant?

http://bobby.watchfire.com/bobby/bobbyServlet?URL=http://www.scaiecat -spa-gigi.com%2Fsv%2Flagenhetitalien3.html&output=Submit&gl=wcag1-aaa&test=#
g250

Try testing it with this http://webxact.watchfire.com/
You may find it easier.

Unfortunately, it seems to use javascript which I do not like.

 

[Titus A Ducksass - Gran stopped chastising me so I]

Well, the table with the pictures and the area of each room has already a
summary. I tried to write another one but I am not sure which is better.
The same table also has <TH scope="col" and <td scope="row">
The table for the search engine has not yet.

Every table should have 1 and only 1 summary. Nested tables included.

There is one point about whether
the foreground and background colors contrast sufficiently with each other.
Is it the contrast within the colours in the photo or between the background
of the page and the colours of the photos which is meant?

Contrast in or around photos do not count as the alt tag and/or D link
should be sufficient to explain the picture in full. Lets face it,
not everyone has photos turned on anyway.

Contrast counts when text is on the screen or when colour means
something ie if each row of text (or numbers etc) alternates colour to
show that the rows have changed then the contrast between the text,
rows and background need to be sufficient to be able to read the text
- Try printing on a black and white printer at draft resolution to see
if you can read all of it and that the change of contrast is
sufficient.

At the end of the day, it is extremely nice to have AAA (Level 3)
however, it is not meant as a restriction to asthetics.

In UK, the legal minimum requirement is single A (yet to be tested in
a court of Law though the RNIB keep promising).

My interpretation is as follows:
A - Must do.
AA - Should do.
AAA - IF you can do.

You are testing with AAA turned on and this is the hardest to correct.
Customise your test to just do A or AA and go onto AAA when you have
mastered the lower levels.

Unfortunately, it seems to use javascript which I do not like.

I use it all the time, it is owned and run by the same people that
have Bobby. It is easier, more informative and faster than Bobby.


--
It will be a great day when our schools have
all the money they need and the Air Force
has to hold a car boot sale to buy a new bomber.
-
It will be an even better day when schools teach children to read and write.

 

[Luigi Donatello Asero]

"Titus A Ducksass - Gran stopped chastising me so I changed back."

Every table should have 1 and only 1 summary. Nested tables included.

I have put a summary on that table too.

Contrast in or around photos do not count as the alt tag and/or D link
should be sufficient to explain the picture in full. Lets face it,
not everyone has photos turned on anyway.

Contrast counts when text is on the screen or when colour means
something ie if each row of text (or numbers etc) alternates colour to
show that the rows have changed then the contrast between the text,
rows and background need to be sufficient to be able to read the text

What about those who find it difficult to see some colours?

- Try printing on a black and white printer at draft resolution to see
if you can read all of it and that the change of contrast is
sufficient.

Is it possible to customize a printer Canon BJC 250 to let it print in black
and white?

At the end of the day, it is extremely nice to have AAA (Level 3)
however, it is not meant as a restriction to asthetics.

In UK, the legal minimum requirement is single A (yet to be tested in
a court of Law though the RNIB keep promising).

My interpretation is as follows:
A - Must do.
AA - Should do.
AAA - IF you can do.

You are testing with AAA turned on and this is the hardest to correct.
Customise your test to just do A or AA and go onto AAA when you have
mastered the lower levels. How do I customize that? t
I use it all the time, it is owned and run by the same people that
have Bobby. It is easier, more informative and faster than Bobby.

But I do not need use any Java script for the other.

 

[rf]

Luigi Donatello wrote

"Titus A Ducksass - Gran stopped chastising me so I changed back."

I have put a summary on that table too.

.... stops reading here...

LDA: Do you think that you could make it any harder for me to find out which
parts of this post belong to the poster you are replying to and which parts
belong to you?

Hint: Look at the above: my newsreader has wrapped things, other peoples
newsreaders have wrapped thing, most of them have added a >, Now, Which of
the above words are yours?

I for one have no bloody idea!

Please format your posts so that I at least can read them.

Unreadable posts == nobody pays any attention to them.

Do you wonder I gave up on you the other day...

 

[Titus A Ducksass - Gran stopped chastising me so I]

I have put a summary on that table too.

No problem then.

What about those who find it difficult to see some colours?

There are some colour combinations to avoid and you will need to
research this if it interests you. Remember that every viewer has the
option to turn off colour, font and font size if they wish. They can
also use their own CSS.

Is it possible to customize a printer Canon BJC 250 to let it print in black
and white?

? Don't know, try looking for greyscale as an option.

How do I customize that?

go to http://bobby.watchfire.com/bobby/html/en/advanced.jsp and choose
level 1, 1&2 or 3. 1=A 2=AA 3=AAA.
You may be surprised by the results.

But I do not need use any Java script for the other.

??? I do not use any java script myself - it does all the testing
itself.

Try Bobby and Webxact on www.bolton-community-college.ac.uk.
--
It will be a great day when our schools have
all the money they need and the Air Force
has to hold a car boot sale to buy a new bomber.
-
It will be an even better day when schools teach children to read and write.

 

[Jukka K. Korpela]

Do you understand this? I don´t.

I think I understand what they're saying _and_ why that's wrong.

"If this is a data table (not used for layout only), provide a
caption. (2 instances)

Bobby is making its own rules. Do you wish to comply with Bobby rules, or
with the W3C WAI rules, or do you wish to create accessible pages? Three
different objectives, though somewhat correlated.

Lines 147, 211-212 "
http://bobby.watchfire.com/bobby/bobbyServlet?URL=http://www.sca
iecat-spa-gigi.com%2Fsv%2Flagenhetitalien3.html&output=Submit&gl=wcag1
-aaa&test=#g250 I think that I already have a caption between line
210 and line 212 --

Indeed. So the "checking tool" is just confusing here. It performs some
fairly trivial checks and then spits out some "manual checks" stuff about
matters it does not check - even for things that _could_ be checked
automatically to some extent.

There's not much point in those "manual checks" messages. If you know
what they really aim at, you knew what needs to be done before you used
the "tool". If you don't know, you'll just get confused - or even start
writing worse than useless captions and summaries without paying
attention to _why_ they might (or might not) be useful.

Your table might have some accessibility problems, but Bobby is not of
any help in idenfifying them. The caption you have is just fine. Don't
ask _me_ why Bobby babbles about potential need for a <caption> element
in a case that clearly has one; _I_ didn't recommend using Bobby, and
won't.

 

[Luigi Donatello Asero]

I think I understand what they're saying _and_ why that's wrong.


Bobby is making its own rules. Do you wish to comply with Bobby rules, or
with the W3C WAI rules, or do you wish to create accessible pages? Three
different objectives, though somewhat correlated.

I want to create pages which are as accessible as possible.

 

[Karl Groves]

I want to create pages which are as accessible as possible.

Then do not measure your level of accessibility by whether it passes muster
with an automated checking tool.


-Karl

 

[Luigi Donatello Asero]

Then do not measure your level of accessibility by whether it passes muster
with an automated checking tool.


-Karl

Automated checking tools are certainly not the only thing I use to try to
reach
accessibility: they are useful but they have limits.
The guidelines from W3 are no automated checking tools.
http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/
Bobby and the HTML validator are checking tools

 

[Andy Dingley]

I want to create pages which are as accessible as possible.

So far you're failing badly.

http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/sv/faktaomitalien.html
is a page that's poorly laid out, unstructured, hard to follow and
basically _ugly_. You have become so wrapped up in catching that
Bobby icon that you've lost the big picture.

Go away and read Tufte or someone. Then start that page again from
scratch, and give it some coherent top-level structure before you
start to worry about the details.

If the page is poorly designed, it becomes inaccessible to _everyone_.

Bobby icons are a guarantee of poor page design and the resultant poor
accessibility. They're the spoor of a web coder who is so focused on
the small picture that they've forgotten the important stuff.

 

[Psyonicdreams]

"Titus A Ducksass - Gran stopped chastising me so I changed back."

At the end of the day, it is extremely nice to have AAA (Level 3)
however, it is not meant as a restriction to asthetics.

In UK, the legal minimum requirement is single A (yet to be tested in
a court of Law though the RNIB keep promising).

I would be happy with an A rating for now.

My interpretation is as follows:
A - Must do.
AA - Should do.
AAA - IF you can do.

I 'think' I am ok for A, my sites passes the automatic tests, but
I am not 100% sure about the manual ones (I am a bit biased!),
where is the best place to get some kind person to check the
results and give me advice on fixing any problems? I would like
to put the little bobby logo on my site, but don't want to until I
am 100% sure its ok.

I use it all the time, it is owned and run by the same people that
have Bobby. It is easier, more informative and faster than Bobby.

It does seem better than the 'normal' Bobby one.

Very true

It will be an even better day when schools teach children to read and

write.

My 6 year old can read and write quite well, but I don't know
how much of that is the school and how much is us teaching her
at home.

 

[Psyonicdreams]

Same here.

Then do not measure your level of accessibility by whether it passes muster
with an automated checking tool.

The problem is that a lot of people think that if its looks ok to
them then it is ok, I would love to see a really good accessability
checker that was completely automated. I have read the WAI
rules and find them hard to work out perfectly by hand, its too
easy for most to look at dark green text on a black background
and think "I can read it, it must be fine"

 

[Toby A Inkster]

I 'think' I am ok for A, my sites passes the automatic tests, but
I am not 100% sure about the manual ones (I am a bit biased!),
where is the best place to get some kind person to check the
results and give me advice on fixing any problems?

alt.html.critique.

 

[Titus A Ducksass - Gran stopped chastising me so I]

"Titus A Ducksass - Gran stopped chastising me so I changed back."


I would be happy with an A rating for now.

What is the URL?

I 'think' I am ok for A, my sites passes the automatic tests, but
I am not 100% sure about the manual ones (I am a bit biased!),
where is the best place to get some kind person to check the
results and give me advice on fixing any problems? I would like
to put the little bobby logo on my site, but don't want to until I
am 100% sure its ok.

<Grin> You would be surprised by the number of sites claiming to be
Bobby compliant and failing to add an alt to the Bobby logo thereby

It does seem better than the 'normal' Bobby one.

It also advises about other things such as meta tags etc....

Very true

write.

My 6 year old can read and write quite well, but I don't know
how much of that is the school and how much is us teaching her
at home.

I agree, as a child of 6, I helped my 9 year old brother to read.
--
It will be a great day when our schools have
all the money they need and the Air Force
has to hold a car boot sale to buy a new bomber.
-
It will be an even better day when schools teach children to read and write.

 

[Titus A Ducksass - Gran stopped chastising me so I]

Same here.


The problem is that a lot of people think that if its looks ok to
them then it is ok, I would love to see a really good accessability
checker that was completely automated. I have read the WAI
rules and find them hard to work out perfectly by hand, its too
easy for most to look at dark green text on a black background
and think "I can read it, it must be fine"

Provided you have stuck to the guidelines, the user should be able to
change the colours as they see fit using their own css. However, the
normal punter does not and will not want to know how.

Now, turn off your monitor.

Can you now navigate your system?

I can mine - though mine is on an intranet that the public cannot
access - mine is also aimed primarily at blind people.
--
It will be a great day when our schools have
all the money they need and the Air Force
has to hold a car boot sale to buy a new bomber.
-
It will be an even better day when schools teach children to read and write.

 

[Psyonicdreams]

"Titus A Ducksass - Gran stopped chastising me so I changed back."

What is the URL?

http://www.aspexdesign.co.uk

Any constructive comments on accessability are VERY
welcome. The site is not perfect, but its just my little home
page. Accessabilty is important to me, I am physically
disabled and I have just spent the last year learning sign
language and studying "deaf community and culture", so I
do worry about access.

<Grin> You would be surprised by the number of sites claiming to be
Bobby compliant and failing to add an alt to the Bobby logo thereby
invalidating their claim.</Grin>

I can believe it, its the sort of stupid mistake I make when
working on my site at 3am in the morning. Closest thing I did
recently was to make my site 100% valid xhtml, put the logos
on, then add a banner using somebody elses invalid code and
forgot to revalidate it, doh! I felt very stupid when it was
pointed out.

Dean

 

[jake]

In message <[email protected]>, Psyonicdreams

http://www.aspexdesign.co.uk

Any constructive comments on accessability are VERY
welcome. The site is not perfect, but its just my little home
page. Accessabilty is important to me, I am physically
disabled and I have just spent the last year learning sign
language and studying "deaf community and culture", so I
do worry about access.
[snip]


Dean

Just a few thoughts:

(a) Don't set the size of paragraph text in 'pt' units; if you do, users
of MS IE won't be able to (easily) increase the size of the text. Use
"%".

'font-size:100%;' will ensure that the user sees the text in the size
s/he wishes to see it.

(b) Put a 'skip to main content' link at the start of each page so the
user of assistive technology (AT) -- screen-readers, talking browsers,
etc. -- can bypass the navigation at the start of each page. The link
can be visible or invisible as you wish.

(b) On each page, disable the link for that page in the navigation list.
e.g. On the 'free stuff' page, disable the 'free stuff' link.

(c) Many AT UAs rely on page mark-up and punctuation to decide how to
pause reading, change tone, etc.

(i) You need an additional 'accessible' page for your poems, where the
poems contain the appropriate punctuation, otherwise the words will just
run into one another.
(ii) Similar. On pages like 'info', the sentences could do with
full-stops (periods).

(d) On each page, before supplying links to external sites that open in
a new window -- warn people that the link(s) open in a new window.

(e) On the 'photos' page, provide the correct mark-up for the data
table.

(f) On the 'links' page, set the alternative text of *all* occurrences
of 'gold.gif' to alt=""

(g) On the 'links' page you have "...If you want to link to me then
please use one of these banners: ...", but the alternative text on the
following banner images are set to alt="". Set the alternative text to
reflect the content of the banners, otherwise it makes no sense to AT
users.

(h) On your home page, you have a "...[Make payments with PayPal - it's
fast, free and secure!: Image Button.] ..." link.

Either this should be preceded by a suitable header, or the link should
be to be moved further down the following paragraph.

(i) Things that might be nice if you get the time:
A. Put titles on your links
B. Mark-up the first occurrence of an abbreviation on a page e.g. ICQ
C. Put 'You are here: ' at the start of the crumb trail


Anyway ......just a few thoughts.

regards.