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B

Bergamot

Knut said:
The problem is that you are outside of the "society" if you are using
the 100% font. In the mind of lto of users your homepage looks outmoded.

Thats whate customers and users are telling you.

*Some* clients may say that, but I find it much less likely that *users*
do. I've found that many users merely tolerate the small type they find
on most web sites and are unaware they can change their browser setting
to combat it. Once I show them how, it's like a whole new web to them. :)
The question is what are you doing against those arguments..

Part of your role as a web designer is to educate the client why they
don't really want what they think they do.
 
J

Jonathan N. Little

Neredbojias said:
On 10 Mar 2008, Jonathan N. Little wrote:

Great analogy and explanation. For my own tuppence, I can't stand
commercials, anyway, and quit watching network tv at all sometime in the
'80s. Now what do you think I do when I hit a web site with too small a
font size?

Don't watch much myself, abhor "reality" tv and have been "Law &
Order"ed to death so mostly watch movies or PBS, I do watch the newtork
news before the News Hour to see what the public slant is...so I avoid
most commercials.
A large part of the problem as Mr. Krueger explains it is the staid
design approach of many so-called "cool" websites. Few designers are
actually capable of designing a site effectively with 100% font size so
we have what we have today. It's quite logical.

It is an approach problem. Some people cannot think "out of the box", in
this case fixed-dimensioned box.
 
D

dorayme

Knut Krueger said:
Using the default fonsize makes the pages "old fashioned" - not only my
words - but the words of other useres

What the solution for that in your opinion.

I understand your concerns 100%. I have come across it with
clients and users. There is no "solution" in the sense of a magic
bullet. Complex problems require complex solutions.

There are a number of quite difficult issues involved and you
cannot hope to resolve them by your own action. The problem is a
social one that has developed over time because of practices that
were unfortunate to begin with and because of general ignorance
on the part of website viewers of the controls on their own
browsers. There is nothing much you can do to turn this big ship
around. You are too small (as are we all, individually).

What you have to be concerned with is what you will set your font
sizes at. If you make a principled stand and set 100% for body
text and no less generally than .85 for some other important
things like navigation, you will sleep easy knowing you have not
contributed to the madness of the arms race.

Arms race? It works like this. Some authors make font-sizes
small. They make attractive enough web-sites. Other do the same.
They all have plenty to say and do and it all fits in the page
easier. It was a particularly young people's game the www.
Whatever. A trend is established and the browser manufacturers'
default for the browser and/or the user or the user's agents
settings are for web-sites as they are (not as they should be
according to the 'best practice' recommendations of such groups
as here on alt.html). So when a best practice site come along,
quite the minority it would seem, it looks "too big" to eyes
otherwise accustomed.

The people in this newsgroup will not tend to increase their
font-sizes at the options or preferences level of their browser
for a number of reasons. One reason is they are loathe to bow
down to a stupid mindless trend and would prefer to use their
'tactical' controls (like 'command +' or 'alt +') as and when
they have trouble reading sites with small fonts (like e.g.. A
List Apart!).

Another big reason is that we are website makers. We make
web-sites and want to see our efforts at a 'normal for us'
comfortable scale. That is 100%. That is rationality.

Rationality? Rational, because if every author did this and every
user set their browser's 'strategic' font-sizes (in Option or
Preference panels), everyone would see the text at a size that
was comfortable for them.

But this 'rational' world is not the world we live in and so you
are faced with some difficult personal choices. Some website
makers go down the path of following (and thereby confirming) the
bad trend but *perhaps/probably* keeping *most* people happy.
Leaving the less well sighted to adjust their browsers.

It is rational for the user to adjust their browsers so that the
majority of the sites they look at seem good and comfortable for
them. These users will find the 100% author's efforts 'too big'
and have to use their 'tactical' mouse or keyboard controls on
these sites (to make the text smaller!)

There is another very big factor and that is design. While 100%
text might look too big in one design, it will not be so in
another design. So look to your design to lessen the problem you
face. make it seem more natural. I will not go into this further
here as I am not confident anyone is still reading! <g>

The other thing you can do that is not as good as above, is to
put in a prominent control: "Text too small? Click this" where
the this is a text enlarging icon. It is a practice some people
use. You can then go for the 92% (you mention later in the
thread) and give the inexperienced user an easy way to go up.
 
N

Neredbojias

Don't watch much myself, abhor "reality" tv

Yeah, barfo. I caught one once where people had to eat bugs to advance,
and "survivor", to me anyway, totally sucks. Then there's the one about
best amateur singer where everybody watches to see that asshole judge
tear someone a new one. Whatever sells, right?
and have been "Law &
Order"ed to death so mostly watch movies or PBS

Yeah, I like Law & Order although I didn't watch it much for a long time
until the episodes came out on dvd. I've got 3 season's-worth and wish
they'd issue some of the later seasons _individually_; at least if they
_are_ available they seem hard to find.
I do watch the newtork
news before the News Hour to see what the public slant is...so I avoid
most commercials.


It is an approach problem. Some people cannot think "out of the box",
in this case fixed-dimensioned box.

Yup. But it keeps us working, too.
 
D

David Segall

It is safe to go back in the water! You need MythTV
<http://www.mythtv.org/> to record the program then remove the
advertisements before you view it. It has the slight disadvantage that
you may spend so much time getting MythTV working to your satisfaction
that you may not have time to watch any television.
Yeah, I like Law & Order although I didn't watch it much for a long time
until the episodes came out on dvd. I've got 3 season's-worth and wish
they'd issue some of the later seasons _individually_; at least if they
_are_ available they seem hard to find.
With MythTV you can "time shift" DVDs too. Rent the episodes you want
and MythTV will keep them on your hard drive until you feel like
watching them.
 
J

Jonathan N. Little

David said:
It is safe to go back in the water! You need MythTV

said:
With MythTV you can "time shift" DVDs too. Rent the episodes you want
and MythTV will keep them on your hard drive until you feel like
watching them.

Ah...but this is downloaded programming right? In 3rd-world America, no
cable, no broadband. I broke down and got NetFlix so I could watch
something better than what was offered at the video store for local
consumption.
 
D

David Segall

Jonathan N. Little said:
Ah...but this is downloaded programming right? In 3rd-world America, no
cable, no broadband. I broke down and got NetFlix so I could watch
something better than what was offered at the video store for local
consumption.
The source of the DVD is irrelevant. If you borrow it from NetFlix or
you next door neighbour you can use MythTV to copy it to your hard
drive and then return the DVD. You choose when you feel like watching
it. If you are on a NetFlix "n DVD at a time unlimited" plan the
number of DVDs you can have is limited only by the turn around time of
the DVDs and the amount of hard disk storage you have. MythTV has a
NetFlix module but I don't know what it does because I'm in Australia.

I should add that if all you want to do is save DVDs then there are
several easier ways than installing MythTV.
 
N

Neredbojias

It is safe to go back in the water! You need MythTV
<http://www.mythtv.org/> to record the program then remove the
advertisements before you view it. It has the slight disadvantage that
you may spend so much time getting MythTV working to your satisfaction
that you may not have time to watch any television.

He he. Well, other than that it sounds good, but to be honest with you
I just don't have the desire to watch tv. In the last 20 years or so,
I've liked maybe 4 or 5 of them, Law & Order probably being the prime
one. The thrill is not only gone, it left in the 80s. Hell, since
about 1990, I've watched only 1 Super Bowl (-or 3 quarters thereof) and
found that rather boring as well.
With MythTV you can "time shift" DVDs too. Rent the episodes you want
and MythTV will keep them on your hard drive until you feel like
watching them.

Another thing is I wouldn't want to load/abuse my HD with that kind of
crap. Yeah, I have lots of movies and some tv shows on dvd, and that
suits me just fine.
 
E

Ed Mullen

David said:
It is safe to go back in the water! You need MythTV
<http://www.mythtv.org/> to record the program then remove the
advertisements before you view it. It has the slight disadvantage that
you may spend so much time getting MythTV working to your satisfaction
that you may not have time to watch any television.
With MythTV you can "time shift" DVDs too. Rent the episodes you want
and MythTV will keep them on your hard drive until you feel like
watching them.

I can't imagine diving into that when Tivo and other DVR products are
available. TV isn't a computer application, it's a consumer
entertainment product. I know, YMMV and all that. And, sure, if it
rocks your boat, great. I just don't see it. I'll stick with my Tivos.
 
C

Chris F.A. Johnson

No not your default font size.
The major problem is that websites are more a showroom for a
presentation of a company than a medium to present information.

And the sites are looking cool (Neredbojias thank you for the words)
with small fontsize and they look antiquated with default size.

Those who feel that way should reduce the default font size in
their browsers. Then all sites will look cool.
The commercial aspect to present the research or the company is as
important as the possibility to read the words.

A site I can't read doesn't look cool, just illegible.
 
D

dorayme

"Chris F.A. Johnson said:
A site I can't read doesn't look cool, just illegible.

As a rough estimate, what percentages of sites that you visit
have font-sizes that are comfortable for you?
 
R

rf

dorayme said:
As a rough estimate, what percentages of sites that you visit
have font-sizes that are comfortable for you?

<dives in>

Not many. Most certainly *not* the majority. Perhaps 30%.

And of the 70% at least a third of those fail in some mannar when I increase
my user font size to, say, 130% to compensate.

Many will simply break so much that increasing the font size is not
feasible, such as content simply disappearing out the bottom of an
absolutely positioned and sized div. I either have to lean over to the
screen and squint or, more frequently, move on to the next site that sells
the same information.
 
D

dorayme

"rf said:
<dives in>

Not many. Most certainly *not* the majority. Perhaps 30%.

Yes, ok. This is in the ballpark area I thought too. My next
question is how come you do not set your font sizes in your
options so that the majority of sites look ok at a size you are
comfortable with?

I know why I don't. Because I don't much have time for
"browsing", I spend too much time I am sure looking at my own
efforts and they are at level of body {font-size: 100%;}. And
when I do go to other sites, it often for some time to read stuff
slowy, where it takes little time to flick the text up or down to
suit me. I don't surf! That's for the sea (and then only
sometimes <g>)

But if I was not making websites, I would surely up the
preferences and confine the tactical twiddling on a per site
basis to the minority best practice sites.
 
R

rf

dorayme said:
Yes, ok. This is in the ballpark area I thought too. My next
question is how come you do not set your font sizes in your
options so that the majority of sites look ok at a size you are
comfortable with?

It's in the bit you snipped:

"Many will simply break so much that increasing the font size is not
feasible, such as content simply disappearing out the bottom of an
absolutely positioned and sized div."

I had a minimum font size set for a while but found too many sites breaking.
It's easier to roll the mouse wheel a bit than to uncheck the minimum font
size to cater to these disillusioned drezigners.

Doesn't stop me griping about flyspeck sized fonts though!

<aside>
The resort my ski lodge lives in refurbished their site a few years ago.
Horrible flyspeck sized fonts but, even worse, dark grey text on a light
grey background.

I complained to them, pointing out that their major competitor had nice big
black text on a nice white background. I also pointed out to them that my
demographic (over 50, sort of retired, lots of spare time and cash) was the
one most likely to spend lots of $s at their resort, and also the one most
likely to be unable to read the site, as per your other thread.

What did they do? Sent me a polite email explaining how to set my
accessibillity options to defeat their stupid design. Har bloody har :)

PS: They have since re-designed again. The text is now black but is still
font-size: 80%; and is now on a semi-transparent background, so the page
background shows through. OK, snow is white but those maroon ski suits
aren't. Looks pretty but I am there to read about their resort, not look at
"pretty".

http://www.perisherblue.com.au/winter/index.php
</aside>
 
D

dorayme

"rf said:
It's in the bit you snipped:

"Many will simply break so much that increasing the font size is not
feasible, such as content simply disappearing out the bottom of an
absolutely positioned and sized div."

This sort of thing did occur to me but I was thinking, you would
rather read the text comfortably and buy the break up a bit. But,
I do understand, if the break up is severe and you can't get
stuff like main navigation... Was also thinking not 70% break so
badly as to be anything but a bit ugly at a size many of us can
read comfortably. But obviously as you say below, there were too
many for you!

Gosh, there are so many complications. The whole business of how
to set one's prefs is not merely governed by what it is
comfortable to read size wise but by coping with 'other' design
faults like px widths boxes and things!

When I am thinking about these matters, I often abstract from all
this stuff and just consider text comfortable to read. And so I
go on about the bad trends that are established with small fonts
and how it hard it is to convince people that sites with 'normal'
and extremely rational 100% set content text seems unusual, ugly,
gauche, to not a few people.
 
B

Bergamot

rf said:
And of the 70% at least a third of those fail in some mannar when I increase
my user font size to, say, 130% to compensate.

Many will simply break so much that increasing the font size is not
feasible,

I enforce a minimum font-size in my browser. Those sites that look
broken when they first load get one chance to redeem themselves. I
disable stylesheets. If the site is still unusable, off I go.

I disable CSS a lot more than I should have to. It's not always due to
failure to adapt to my larger type, but just as often their attempts to
be kewl that get in the way of having a good site.
 
K

Knut Krueger

Thanks to all for your answer,
I discussed with a couple guys from the "cool style fraction"

In there opinion is the preferred font size not the 100% because all
other applications (Thunderbird, Windows Explorer, Word etc.) on their
desktop have smaller font size. Old operating system, old graphic cards
in old computer system had the font size similar to 100%.
That is the reason for that guys to have the impression of old fashioned
websites with default fontsize 100%.
And they do not want to adjust their browser. If you have a look to
http://www.microsoft.com thy adjusted their font sizes similar to their
operating system. I think that is the reason to use smaller fontsizes.

Regards Knut
 
R

Roedy Green

Using the default fonsize makes the pages "old fashioned" - not only my
words - but the words of other useres

I use the standard font size at mindprod.com. It makes my type look
large and old fashioned. I get fan mail on it. I am interested in
making the content easier to read, rather trying than to impress you
with a "professional" appearance.

The other "unprofessional" thing I do is use an off-white background.
This was recommended by ergonomics people.

The Opera browser is fairly easy to zoom. Opera, Firefox, Safari, IE
all support Ctrl-+, so the initial choice is less important now.
 
C

Chris F.A. Johnson

I use the standard font size at mindprod.com. It makes my type look
large and old fashioned. I get fan mail on it. I am interested in
making the content easier to read, rather trying than to impress you
with a "professional" appearance.

Much of it is LARGER than 100%. That is the problem.
The other "unprofessional" thing I do is use an off-white background.
This was recommended by ergonomics people.

That is a good thing; it is not unprofessional.
The Opera browser is fairly easy to zoom. Opera, Firefox, Safari, IE
all support Ctrl-+, so the initial choice is less important now.

<http://cfaj.freeshell.org/testing/mindprod.com.jpg>
 

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