Book Recommendations?

Discussion in 'C Programming' started by Lester Manry, Sep 7, 2004.

  1. Lester Manry

    Lester Manry Guest

    First I wish to appoligies if this is OT and should be posted
    elsewhere. I've done a google group search and read the
    Comp.Lang.C FAQ in hopes of avoiding a OT or FAQ. Please direct
    me to a better group if this is OT :)

    I am wanting to incress my understanding of programming practises
    used by professional C programmers. I feel comfortable with C
    programming and modifing existing programs, but feel at a lost
    when I wish to start my own project.

    I understand that there are steps professional programmers usualy
    take either individually or as a team, before even writing the
    first line of code. Some of the things I've heared here and there
    are:

    * Writing some kind of documentation that describes what the
    program is for and what it will do and what it won't do.

    * Deciding (possibly documenting) when and what order to do the
    things listed in the documentation above.

    * Deciding on what standards will be used when writing the code.

    * Deciding what parts of C can and cannot be used. (eg disallow
    the use of goto, static, keeing global variables to a minimium,
    etc.)

    and I'm sure there are lots of other stuff I haven't heard of that
    could be added to this list :)

    I have looked for books that deal with this topic at bookstores.
    There seems to be many books around. I've been hesitent to buy one
    yet, experence shows there are books to be avoided and books that
    are considered a MUST.

    What books have helped those who read comp.lang.c in better
    preparing to start a project? What books would you recommend? What
    books should I avoid?

    I would prefer books writen by someone with years of C programming
    experence, who knows the subject deeply. I would also prefer a book
    that gives good examples. I understand best by explainations followed
    by good/realistic examples.

    I hope this isn't asking too much...

    --
    Proud owner of "C: A Reference Manual" and "C: Unleashed"
    Lester Manry, Sep 7, 2004
    #1
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  2. Lester Manry

    Mike Wahler Guest

    "Lester Manry" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > First I wish to appoligies if this is OT and should be posted
    > elsewhere. I've done a google group search and read the
    > Comp.Lang.C FAQ in hopes of avoiding a OT or FAQ. Please direct
    > me to a better group if this is OT :)
    >
    > I am wanting to incress my understanding of programming practises
    > used by professional C programmers. I feel comfortable with C
    > programming and modifing existing programs, but feel at a lost
    > when I wish to start my own project.
    >
    > I understand that there are steps professional programmers usualy
    > take either individually or as a team, before even writing the
    > first line of code. Some of the things I've heared here and there
    > are:
    >
    > * Writing some kind of documentation that describes what the
    > program is for and what it will do and what it won't do.
    >
    > * Deciding (possibly documenting) when and what order to do the
    > things listed in the documentation above.
    >
    > * Deciding on what standards will be used when writing the code.
    >
    > * Deciding what parts of C can and cannot be used. (eg disallow
    > the use of goto, static, keeing global variables to a minimium,
    > etc.)
    >
    > and I'm sure there are lots of other stuff I haven't heard of that
    > could be added to this list :)
    >
    > I have looked for books that deal with this topic at bookstores.
    > There seems to be many books around. I've been hesitent to buy one
    > yet, experence shows there are books to be avoided and books that
    > are considered a MUST.
    >
    > What books have helped those who read comp.lang.c in better
    > preparing to start a project? What books would you recommend? What
    > books should I avoid?
    >
    > I would prefer books writen by someone with years of C programming
    > experence, who knows the subject deeply. I would also prefer a book
    > that gives good examples. I understand best by explainations followed
    > by good/realistic examples.
    >
    > I hope this isn't asking too much...


    I suspect there are good books about the above, but you're not
    really asking about the C language, but about software design
    and development methods (these issues would apply for any
    language). So imo this isn't the place to ask. One place to
    ask would be a more general newsgroup such as 'comp.programming'.
    You might also find of interest the 'Extreme Programming' (aka
    'XP') ideas: http://www.extremeprogramming.org/

    -Mike
    Mike Wahler, Sep 7, 2004
    #2
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  3. Lester Manry

    CBFalconer Guest

    Lester Manry wrote:
    >

    .... snip ...
    >
    > I am wanting to incress my understanding of programming practises
    > used by professional C programmers. I feel comfortable with C
    > programming and modifing existing programs, but feel at a lost
    > when I wish to start my own project.
    >
    > I understand that there are steps professional programmers usualy
    > take either individually or as a team, before even writing the
    > first line of code. Some of the things I've heared here and there
    > are:
    >

    .... snip ...
    >
    > * Deciding what parts of C can and cannot be used. (eg disallow
    > the use of goto, static, keeing global variables to a minimium,
    > etc.)


    What ever gave you the idea of disallowing static? This is an
    extremely useful word, especially when applied to functions.

    >

    .... snip ...
    >
    > What books have helped those who read comp.lang.c in better
    > preparing to start a project? What books would you recommend? What
    > books should I avoid?


    Try "The Practice of Programming", by Kernighan and Pike. For a
    good view of the methodology of successive refinement try
    "Algorithms + Data Structures = Programs" by Wirth, if you can
    find it.

    comp.programming is better suited for this subject.

    --
    "I'm a war president. I make decisions here in the Oval Office
    in foreign policy matters with war on my mind." - Bush.
    "If I knew then what I know today, I would still have invaded
    Iraq. It was the right decision" - G.W. Bush, 2004-08-02
    CBFalconer, Sep 7, 2004
    #3
  4. Lester Manry

    Malcolm Guest

    "Lester Manry" <> wrote
    >
    > First I wish to appoligies if this is OT and should be posted
    > elsewhere. I've done a google group search and read the
    > Comp.Lang.C FAQ in hopes of avoiding a OT or FAQ. Please direct
    > me to a better group if this is OT :)
    >

    As others have said. comp.programming is more the forum for general software
    design issues.
    >
    > I understand that there are steps professional programmers usualy
    > take either individually or as a team, before even writing the
    > first line of code. Some of the things I've heared here and there
    > are:
    >

    There's no such thing as a professional programmer, which is part of the
    problem.
    There are also hundreds of formal methods, all claiming to be the one true
    design methodology. Usually these are advanced by ambitious people with
    bullying personality, who see the personal advantage in being the authority
    on software developement methods. Most methods suffer from trivial
    weaknesses, the most usual one being that following the method imposes a
    similar burden on the programmer to writing bug-free code at first try.
    However some are useful.
    Which method to use depends very largely on the type of application you are
    going to write. A quick utilty of no real importance - eg a program to take
    an image, snip off the bordering pixels, and save the cropped image - can be
    written "straight off" without any planning. Safety-critical code, on the
    other hand, demands some sort of formal testing at the very least.
    >
    > * Writing some kind of documentation that describes what the
    > program is for and what it will do and what it won't do.
    >

    Sort of. Obviously you have to have some idea what you are going to achieve
    before you start any project. Some programs grow as functions undreamt of
    are added, at other times you have a formal specification agreed with by the
    client.
    >
    > * Deciding (possibly documenting) when and what order to do the
    > things listed in the documentation above.
    >

    This can be done, but is rather a mistake. An architect wouldn't decide "The
    bridge must carry cars, a railway, and people. So I'll make it carry people
    first, then add railway capacity."
    >
    > * Deciding on what standards will be used when writing the code.
    >

    Normally you have house standards.
    >
    > * Deciding what parts of C can and cannot be used. (eg disallow
    > the use of goto, static, keeing global variables to a minimium,
    > etc.)
    >

    For C this is usually a bad policy, because the language is so small. For
    any programming language, you need to consider carefully about disallowing
    part of it, because most constructs are there for a reason.
    However malloc() and free() may be disallowed, which totally changes the way
    most C programs are written.
    >
    > What books have helped those who read comp.lang.c in better
    > preparing to start a project? What books would you recommend? What
    > books should I avoid?
    >

    Try

    The Mythical Man-Month, by Frederick P. Brooks.
    Code Complete, by Steve McConnell

    There are also losts of books advocating the specific formal methods. We
    don't use any of them in our working environment, so I'm not the person to
    recommend.
    Malcolm, Sep 7, 2004
    #4
  5. Lester Manry

    Jack Klein Guest

    On 7 Sep 2004 09:16:20 -0700, (Lester Manry)
    wrote in comp.lang.c:

    > First I wish to appoligies if this is OT and should be posted
    > elsewhere. I've done a google group search and read the
    > Comp.Lang.C FAQ in hopes of avoiding a OT or FAQ. Please direct
    > me to a better group if this is OT :)
    >
    > I am wanting to incress my understanding of programming practises
    > used by professional C programmers. I feel comfortable with C
    > programming and modifing existing programs, but feel at a lost
    > when I wish to start my own project.
    >
    > I understand that there are steps professional programmers usualy
    > take either individually or as a team, before even writing the
    > first line of code. Some of the things I've heared here and there
    > are:
    >
    > * Writing some kind of documentation that describes what the
    > program is for and what it will do and what it won't do.
    >
    > * Deciding (possibly documenting) when and what order to do the
    > things listed in the documentation above.
    >
    > * Deciding on what standards will be used when writing the code.
    >
    > * Deciding what parts of C can and cannot be used. (eg disallow
    > the use of goto, static, keeing global variables to a minimium,
    > etc.)
    >
    > and I'm sure there are lots of other stuff I haven't heard of that
    > could be added to this list :)
    >
    > I have looked for books that deal with this topic at bookstores.
    > There seems to be many books around. I've been hesitent to buy one
    > yet, experence shows there are books to be avoided and books that
    > are considered a MUST.
    >
    > What books have helped those who read comp.lang.c in better
    > preparing to start a project? What books would you recommend? What
    > books should I avoid?
    >
    > I would prefer books writen by someone with years of C programming
    > experence, who knows the subject deeply. I would also prefer a book
    > that gives good examples. I understand best by explainations followed
    > by good/realistic examples.
    >
    > I hope this isn't asking too much...


    This only addresses part of your question, but this is a book that
    every professional or even serious C programmer should read.

    Safer C: Developing Software for High-Integrity and Safety-Critical
    Systems (The Mcgraw-Hill International Series in Software Engineering)
    by Les Hatton
    Paperback 256 pages (December 12, 1994)
    Publisher: McGraw-Hill Publishing Co.
    ISBN: 0077076400

    It is either out of print or was never distributed in the US. You
    need to order it from a UK dealer. I got mine from
    www.blackwell.co.uk, and it took several weeks to arrive on this side
    of the pond.

    I first heard of it when ACCU voted it something like the most
    significant book on C (hopefully excepting K&R!) of the 20th century.

    Hatton's work is the basis for much of the MISRA C standard, for
    example.

    --
    Jack Klein
    Home: http://JK-Technology.Com
    FAQs for
    comp.lang.c http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html
    comp.lang.c++ http://www.parashift.com/c -faq-lite/
    alt.comp.lang.learn.c-c++
    http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~ajo/docs/FAQ-acllc.html
    Jack Klein, Sep 8, 2004
    #5
  6. Lester Manry

    Chris Barts Guest

    On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 23:08:54 +0100, Malcolm wrote:

    > However malloc() and free() may be disallowed, which totally changes the way
    > most C programs are written.


    I agree that disallowing dynamic storage would alter the structure of
    almost all nontrivial C programs, but I'm at a loss to understand why one
    would do so, or how one would make up for the crippling effect of no
    longer being able to dynamically create data structures.

    A VLA of user-defined structures might mitigate the loss of malloc(), but
    one would be unable to create a linked list (for example), because one
    would be unable to individually modify the creation of each element. Of
    course, the foregoing assumes a C99 compiler (or a suitably nonstandard C
    compiler of some description), which is hardly a portable assumption in
    the real world.
    Chris Barts, Sep 8, 2004
    #6
  7. Lester Manry

    Flash Gordon Guest

    On Wed, 08 Sep 2004 06:21:40 -0600
    Chris Barts <> wrote:

    > On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 23:08:54 +0100, Malcolm wrote:
    >
    > > However malloc() and free() may be disallowed, which totally changes
    > > the way most C programs are written.

    >
    > I agree that disallowing dynamic storage would alter the structure of
    > almost all nontrivial C programs, but I'm at a loss to understand why
    > one would do so, or how one would make up for the crippling effect of
    > no longer being able to dynamically create data structures.
    >
    > A VLA of user-defined structures might mitigate the loss of malloc(),
    > but one would be unable to create a linked list (for example), because
    > one would be unable to individually modify the creation of each
    > element. Of course, the foregoing assumes a C99 compiler (or a
    > suitably nonstandard C compiler of some description), which is hardly
    > a portable assumption in the real world.


    I've done a lot of embedded SW development without the use of
    malloc/calloc/realloc/free. I also know a lot more done in Pascal
    without the use of dynamic allocation.

    One reason the use of dynamic allocation and recursion were banned in
    embedded code where I used to work was because we had to be able to
    analyse the design (prior to coding) and estimate the maximum memory
    usage (a normal requirement was 50% free memory on the initial version
    to allow for later enhancements etc) and you had to be able to confirm
    your analysis after coding.

    It was not a problem because we were developing SW to deal with finite
    and well defined amounts of data. For example, you know exactly how
    large a frame buffer needs to be when doing video processing.
    --
    Flash Gordon
    Sometimes I think shooting would be far too good for some people.
    Although my email address says spam, it is real and I read it.
    Flash Gordon, Sep 8, 2004
    #7
  8. Lester Manry

    Lester Manry Guest

    "Mike Wahler" <> wrote in message
    [snip]
    > I suspect there are good books about the above, but you're not
    > really asking about the C language, but about software design
    > and development methods (these issues would apply for any
    > language). So imo this isn't the place to ask. One place to
    > ask would be a more general newsgroup such as 'comp.programming'.


    I'm not really all that sure what it is I'm looking for TBH. It
    might not be specific even to programming. Perhapes something
    of the form of turning an idea into something writable on paper,
    that detailed enough to be refered to when writing a program in C.

    Writing a program in any langauge without having some clearity on
    on what it is you wish or need to create seems like a Bad Idea and
    thats what I wish to avoid doing.

    > You might also find of interest the 'Extreme Programming' (aka
    > 'XP') ideas: http://www.extremeprogramming.org/


    So far this website appears to be in the right direction of the
    type of information I'm looking for. Thanks :)

    --
    Lester Manry
    Lester Manry, Sep 8, 2004
    #8
  9. Lester Manry

    Malcolm Guest

    "Chris Barts" <> wrote
    >
    > I agree that disallowing dynamic storage would alter the structure of
    > almost all nontrivial C programs, but I'm at a loss to understand why one
    > would do so, or how one would make up for the crippling effect of no
    > longer being able to dynamically create data structures.
    >

    malloc() may be banned for performance reasons, or because it takes away the
    configuration manger's control of memory. (The configuration manger is the
    man who gives time and memory budgets to people, amongst other things). The
    problem is that malloc() can fragment memory and fail unpredictably, which
    means that programs which use it are hard to test. For an everyday app this
    doesn't matter too much - if your 3d shooter doesn't fall over in 100 hours
    of playtesting then it is reasonable to assume it is releasable. The same
    doesn't apply to a cooling system control for a nuclear power station, or to
    a life-support monitor for a hospital system, or indeed to an accounting
    system for a big bank.
    Malcolm, Sep 8, 2004
    #9
  10. Lester Manry

    Malcolm Guest

    "Lester Manry" <> wrote
    >
    > Writing a program in any langauge without having some clearity on
    > on what it is you wish or need to create seems like a Bad Idea and
    > thats what I wish to avoid doing.
    >

    It can be a great idea. Start with "hello world" then add functionality as
    and when your users require it, or you think you have something to offer.
    Malcolm, Sep 8, 2004
    #10
  11. Lester Manry

    Lester Manry Guest

    "Malcolm" <> wrote in message
    > "Lester Manry" <> wrote
    > >
    > > First I wish to appoligies if this is OT and should be posted
    > > elsewhere. I've done a google group search and read the
    > > Comp.Lang.C FAQ in hopes of avoiding a OT or FAQ. Please direct
    > > me to a better group if this is OT :)


    > As others have said. comp.programming is more the forum for general
    > software design issues.


    As soon as I have more info on just what it is I'm looking for I may
    well take my question to 'comp.programming', or where ever it fits
    best.

    > > I understand that there are steps professional programmers usualy
    > > take either individually or as a team, before even writing the
    > > first line of code. Some of the things I've heared here and there
    > > are:


    > There are also hundreds of formal methods, all claiming to be the one true
    > design methodology. Usually these are advanced by ambitious people with
    > bullying personality, who see the personal advantage in being the authority
    > on software developement methods. Most methods suffer from trivial
    > weaknesses, the most usual one being that following the method imposes a
    > similar burden on the programmer to writing bug-free code at first try.


    I'm not looking for anything formal really, just something in general
    that usualy helps in getting a project from being more then just an
    idea stuck in someone's head. Something open and generizlied ment
    to be built-on based on personal preferences, with perhapes some
    pro's and con's of some common practices.

    > However some are useful.
    > Which method to use depends very largely on the type of application you are
    > going to write. A quick utilty of no real importance - eg a program to take
    > an image, snip off the bordering pixels, and save the cropped image - can be
    > written "straight off" without any planning. Safety-critical code, on the
    > other hand, demands some sort of formal testing at the very least.


    I agree with you and understand when something may or may not need
    some form of planning to some extent, but not sure how to go about
    comming up with a plan, which is what I want a book on. I've heard it
    called a POA (Plan Of Action) which seems exactly what I need to learn.


    > > * Writing some kind of documentation that describes what the
    > > program is for and what it will do and what it won't do.
    > >

    > Sort of. Obviously you have to have some idea what you are going to achieve
    > before you start any project. Some programs grow as functions undreamt of
    > are added, at other times you have a formal specification agreed with by the
    > client.


    Yes sounds obvouse to me as well and what I choice to assume makes
    any program a successful one. Some need no writing down cause of
    there simpleness, yet other complex ones do for clearity which
    then can be used as a guide.

    I need some clearity before actualy writing some programs, and
    thats where I get stuck. I need ideas for writing docs I can
    use as a guide when writing my own programs. Like some programs
    come with a TODO list which shows some attemp by the programmer
    to give themself some clearity with what they wish to do. I
    need a book that I can use as a guide in learning the planning
    stage of the programming process.

    > > * Deciding (possibly documenting) when and what order to do the
    > > things listed in the documentation above.
    > >

    > This can be done, but is rather a mistake. An architect wouldn't decide "The
    > bridge must carry cars, a railway, and people. So I'll make it carry people
    > first, then add railway capacity."


    I don't understand why. Maybe once I got a good book on the subject I will.

    Seems to me to some degree you would. There are some things that would
    overlap that might need done at around the same time. An architect would
    need to decide those things in order to insecure the bridge supports people,
    cars and a railway when the architect makes the bridge.

    [snip]

    > > What books have helped those who read comp.lang.c in better
    > > preparing to start a project? What books would you recommend? What
    > > books should I avoid?
    > >

    > Try
    >
    > The Mythical Man-Month, by Frederick P. Brooks.
    > Code Complete, by Steve McConnell
    >
    > There are also losts of books advocating the specific formal methods. We
    > don't use any of them in our working environment, so I'm not the person to
    > recommend.


    I'll write them down and try to look at them next time I'm at a bookstore.
    I'm not interested in some formal method just a general one so your
    recommendations ought to be helpful to me :)

    --
    Lester Manry
    Lester Manry, Sep 8, 2004
    #11
  12. Lester Manry

    Dan Pop Guest

    In <-gordon.me.uk> Flash Gordon <> writes:

    >I've done a lot of embedded SW development without the use of

    ^^^^^^^^^^^
    >malloc/calloc/realloc/free.


    That's because this particular application domain allows a static
    evaluation of the data memory resources needed, up to the last byte.

    This is not the case for many hosted applications, where, in the absence
    of dynamic memory allocation (e.g. traditional FORTRAN) you had to
    overallocate memory and reject data sets too large for your statically
    allocated arrays. Consider writing a compiler without using dynamic
    memory allocation, for example. Your users will be "delighted" to see
    errors like "internal symbol table overflow, please increase the SYMTABSIZ
    parameter and rebuild the compiler".

    I have actually used a badly designed C compiler that generated errors
    like "internal symbol table overflow, please use option -FOO to increase
    the table size". The developers either hadn't heard of realloc or were
    too lazy to use it...

    Dan
    --
    Dan Pop
    DESY Zeuthen, RZ group
    Email:
    Currently looking for a job in the European Union
    Dan Pop, Sep 9, 2004
    #12
  13. Lester Manry

    Flash Gordon Guest

    On 9 Sep 2004 12:22:37 GMT
    (Dan Pop) wrote:

    > In <-gordon.me.uk> Flash Gordon
    > <> writes:
    >
    > >I've done a lot of embedded SW development without the use of

    > ^^^^^^^^^^^
    > >malloc/calloc/realloc/free.

    >
    > That's because this particular application domain allows a static
    > evaluation of the data memory resources needed, up to the last byte.


    I did say that, or something similar.

    > This is not the case for many hosted applications, where, in the
    > absence of dynamic memory allocation (e.g. traditional FORTRAN) you
    > had to overallocate memory and reject data sets too large for your
    > statically allocated arrays. Consider writing a compiler without
    > using dynamic memory allocation, for example. Your users will be
    > "delighted" to see errors like "internal symbol table overflow, please
    > increase the SYMTABSIZ parameter and rebuild the compiler".
    >
    > I have actually used a badly designed C compiler that generated errors
    > like "internal symbol table overflow, please use option -FOO to
    > increase the table size". The developers either hadn't heard of
    > realloc or were too lazy to use it...


    I was merely giving one possible reason for avoiding the use of malloc
    etc since the previous poster seemed to think it was never appropriate
    for real world programs. I was not saying it was always appropriate and
    because of the type of SW I currently work on I make significant use of
    it.
    --
    Flash Gordon
    Sometimes I think shooting would be far too good for some people.
    Although my email address says spam, it is real and I read it.
    Flash Gordon, Sep 9, 2004
    #13
  14. Lester Manry

    Chris Barts Guest

    On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 14:39:49 +0100, Flash Gordon wrote:

    > I was merely giving one possible reason for avoiding the use of malloc
    > etc since the previous poster seemed to think it was never appropriate
    > for real world programs.


    I didn't say it could never be appropriate, I simply said I didn't see any
    scenarios where it would be.

    I always develop for hosted platforms, not embedded, and I do not fully
    understand all of the implications of developing for embedded platforms. I
    realize my ignorance, and I wouldn't presume to make such a baldfaced
    statement.

    > I was not saying it was always appropriate and
    > because of the type of SW I currently work on I make significant use of
    > it.


    And I was saying that I could not imagine being without malloc on any of
    the systems I design for.
    Chris Barts, Sep 10, 2004
    #14
  15. Lester Manry

    Flash Gordon Guest

    On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 19:54:39 -0600
    Chris Barts <> wrote:

    > On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 14:39:49 +0100, Flash Gordon wrote:
    >
    > > I was merely giving one possible reason for avoiding the use of
    > > malloc etc since the previous poster seemed to think it was never
    > > appropriate for real world programs.

    >
    > I didn't say it could never be appropriate, I simply said I didn't see
    > any scenarios where it would be.


    OK, so I miss-read what you wrote.

    > I always develop for hosted platforms, not embedded, and I do not
    > fully understand all of the implications of developing for embedded
    > platforms. I realize my ignorance, and I wouldn't presume to make such
    > a baldfaced statement.


    See above.

    > > I was not saying it was always appropriate and
    > > because of the type of SW I currently work on I make significant use
    > > of it.

    >
    > And I was saying that I could not imagine being without malloc on any
    > of the systems I design for.


    I've also done plenty of hosted work in Pascal that did not require
    dynamic memory allocation, and would not have required it in C. The
    largest amount being a computer (hosted system) controlling test
    equipment to do automatic testing. Due to the way the tests were
    designed we always knew exactly how much data we would be dealing with.

    as you (correctly) say, it all depends on the systems you are designing
    for.
    --
    Flash Gordon
    Sometimes I think shooting would be far too good for some people.
    Although my email address says spam, it is real and I read it.
    Flash Gordon, Sep 12, 2004
    #15
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