books by clc contributors

Discussion in 'C Programming' started by BruceS, Feb 26, 2010.

  1. BruceS

    BruceS Guest

    I've seen a number of critiques by some posters of books written by
    others (contributors or not), and this has probably been done to
    death. I'm interested in the other side of it. I've helped edit a
    technical book, and that was enough to make the *writing* of one look
    downright painful. People have told me I should write a book, but so
    far I've always veered away. If you've written a technical book, how
    was the experience for you? How well did it sell, and how has that
    affected your experience of writing? Would you do it again? Is it
    something (like teaching) that you really only do for the joy of it,
    or does it pay decently? How did you choose the specific subject area
    you wrote about?

    That's a lot of questions, so I'll quit there.
    BruceS, Feb 26, 2010
    #1
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  2. BruceS

    Eric Sosman Guest

    [OT] Re: books by clc contributors

    On 2/26/2010 11:20 AM, BruceS wrote:
    > I've seen a number of critiques by some posters of books written by
    > others (contributors or not), and this has probably been done to
    > death. I'm interested in the other side of it. I've helped edit a
    > technical book, and that was enough to make the *writing* of one look
    > downright painful. People have told me I should write a book, but so
    > far I've always veered away. If you've written a technical book, how
    > was the experience for you? How well did it sell, and how has that
    > affected your experience of writing? Would you do it again? Is it
    > something (like teaching) that you really only do for the joy of it,
    > or does it pay decently? How did you choose the specific subject area
    > you wrote about?
    >
    > That's a lot of questions, so I'll quit there.


    Your questions might get better answers in newsgroups with
    "writer" or "writing" or "author" somewhere in the title, but I
    don't frequent them and can't say which are worth while and which
    aren't.

    FWIW I was a co-author of a technical book in the IBM Redbook
    series. The experience of sitting in an IBM facility under the
    lash of an IBM-provided project leader was not "reflective," but
    certainly kept extracting the daily quota of pages from the team.
    Lots of information (and way too many screen shots, IMHO), not as
    much "flow" as I'd have liked, but we got the book done. It "sold"
    (for free download) pretty well in its first few years.

    --
    Eric Sosman
    lid
    Eric Sosman, Feb 26, 2010
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. BruceS

    Seebs Guest

    On 2010-02-26, BruceS <> wrote:
    > I've seen a number of critiques by some posters of books written by
    > others (contributors or not), and this has probably been done to
    > death. I'm interested in the other side of it. I've helped edit a
    > technical book, and that was enough to make the *writing* of one look
    > downright painful. People have told me I should write a book, but so
    > far I've always veered away. If you've written a technical book, how
    > was the experience for you? How well did it sell, and how has that
    > affected your experience of writing? Would you do it again? Is it
    > something (like teaching) that you really only do for the joy of it,
    > or does it pay decently? How did you choose the specific subject area
    > you wrote about?


    Mine wasn't on C, but I've done a lot of writing about C.

    I really enjoy writing. That said, it doesn't pay, at least for me, as well
    as programming. Writing a book paid relatively poorly; writing articles
    actually paid extremely well per hour, but I couldn't get enough hours for
    it to be a viable career.

    In my case, the tools were pretty awful, and I hated them. Actually, it's
    more complicated. I've got credit for one book done with FrameMaker, which I
    disliked but it was livable. I also did one in Word, which was unbelievably
    hateful and frustrating. I did one in DocBook, which was quite pleasant to
    use (but the publisher got cold feet). And I've done books for work both
    in DocBook and FrameMaker. Of them:

    * Tools like DocBook, coupled with the ability to write your own tools,
    are quite pleasant.
    * FrameMaker is full of stupidity and poor design choices, but is basically
    a tool designed for writing.
    * Word is an abomination, and any attempt to make it scale to the task of
    creating books is doomed to tragic failure.

    If I were writing another book, I would probably register Scrivener (an OS X
    app that is designed EXCLUSIVELY for the task of creating and managing text),
    use that to do the writing, then do formatting as a completely separate pass.
    It has been consistently rewarding to me to separate those tasks.

    -s
    --
    Copyright 2010, all wrongs reversed. Peter Seebach /
    http://www.seebs.net/log/ <-- lawsuits, religion, and funny pictures
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Game_(Scientology) <-- get educated!
    Seebs, Feb 26, 2010
    #3
  4. BruceS

    Ben Pfaff Guest

    BruceS <> writes:

    > If you've written a technical book, how was the experience for
    > you? How well did it sell, and how has that affected your
    > experience of writing? Would you do it again?


    I contributed a chapter to _C Unleashed_. It took more time than
    it was worth: I only made about $1000 (before taxes) and spent, I
    imagine, hundreds of hours on it. The reviewing was very poor
    also (although I hear that other contributors had better
    editors).

    In the future, I am more likely to release my writings for free
    on the Internet than to write them for a publisher, at least if
    the publisher gets all the rights. I hear a lot more about GNU
    libavl (which is sort of an online book of mine) than I ever do
    about C Unleashed.
    --
    char a[]="\n .CJacehknorstu";int putchar(int);int main(void){unsigned long b[]
    ={0x67dffdff,0x9aa9aa6a,0xa77ffda9,0x7da6aa6a,0xa67f6aaa,0xaa9aa9f6,0x11f6},*p
    =b,i=24;for(;p+=!*p;*p/=4)switch(0[p]&3)case 0:{return 0;for(p--;i--;i--)case+
    2:{i++;if(i)break;else default:continue;if(0)case 1:putchar(a[i&15]);break;}}}
    Ben Pfaff, Feb 26, 2010
    #4
  5. BruceS

    BruceS Guest

    On Feb 26, 9:59 am, Richard Heathfield <> wrote:
    > BruceS wrote:
    > > I've seen a number of critiques by some posters of books written by
    > > others (contributors or not), and this has probably been done to
    > > death.  I'm interested in the other side of it.  I've helped edit a
    > > technical book, and that was enough to make the *writing* of one look
    > > downright painful.  People have told me I should write a book, but so
    > > far I've always veered away.  If you've written a technical book, how
    > > was the experience for you?  How well did it sell, and how has that
    > > affected your experience of writing?  Would you do it again?  Is it
    > > something (like teaching) that you really only do for the joy of it,
    > > or does it pay decently?  How did you choose the specific subject area
    > > you wrote about?

    >
    > > That's a lot of questions, so I'll quit there.

    >
    > How was the experience? Interesting, even fascinating. Frustrating.
    > Tedious. All of those.
    >
    > How well did it sell? Compared to J K Rowling, not terribly well.
    > Compared to other technical books of its type, apparently it did okay.
    >
    > Would I do it again? Maybe. Last time I was asked, however, I said no.
    >
    > Does it pay decently? No, not really (although I don't suppose Knuth is
    > too upset by the size of his royalty cheques). But it can have indirect
    > benefits. For at least two of my contracts, I got the interview on the
    > strength of the client's curiosity about what an author looks like in
    > "real life".


    That's funny. I've been planning to put a picture of myself on my
    LinkedIn page, but maybe I'd be better off leaving it empty, to stir
    curiosity. "Hmm, I wonder what a CAD guy looks like. Probably pretty
    weird. We should contract with him."

    > How did I choose the subject area? Sams had a proposal for a book on C
    > for intermediate/advanced programmers, but the proposing author changed
    > his mind and dropped out after reading the ToC reviews. Now Sams had a
    > proposal and a budget but no author, so they asked me if I would be
    > prepared to step in. I suggested taking on Lawrence Kirby as
    > co-lead-author, and it turned out they were already talking to him too,
    > so they grabbed that idea and ran with it. So the subject area was sort
    > of chosen for us, really - but the detailed TOC is more or less my own
    > creation, although there are a few things I wanted there which got left
    > out, a very few things I didn't want that got added, and a couple of
    > things that everybody simply forgot about until it was too late.
    >
    > My underlying rationale, however, was that - with almost no exceptions -
    > I wanted the book to be about C, not about C-on-Windows or C-on-Linux or
    > C-on-Mac or C-on-mainframe. We did pop a sockets chapter in there
    > somewhere when nobody was looking, though.


    That sounds a lot like software projects. The client has an idea of
    what he wants, you get to decide a lot of how to write that, you put
    in some extra pieces that you think make sense, and occasional pieces
    get forgotten.

    > If I had the chance to write CU again, I'd do it very, very differently.


    The one to throw away? I'd say that about a lot of the software I've
    written, too.
    BruceS, Feb 26, 2010
    #5
  6. BruceS

    BruceS Guest

    Re: books by clc contributors (OT)

    On Feb 26, 10:01 am, Eric Sosman <> wrote:
    > On 2/26/2010 11:20 AM, BruceS wrote:
    >
    > > I've seen a number of critiques by some posters of books written by
    > > others (contributors or not), and this has probably been done to
    > > death.  I'm interested in the other side of it.  I've helped edit a
    > > technical book, and that was enough to make the *writing* of one look
    > > downright painful.  People have told me I should write a book, but so
    > > far I've always veered away.  If you've written a technical book, how
    > > was the experience for you?  How well did it sell, and how has that
    > > affected your experience of writing?  Would you do it again?  Is it
    > > something (like teaching) that you really only do for the joy of it,
    > > or does it pay decently?  How did you choose the specific subject area
    > > you wrote about?

    >
    > > That's a lot of questions, so I'll quit there.

    >
    >      Your questions might get better answers in newsgroups with
    > "writer" or "writing" or "author" somewhere in the title, but I
    > don't frequent them and can't say which are worth while and which
    > aren't.


    Ah, yes, the thread really is OT here. I apologize, and will try to
    avoid that in future. Thanks for pointing it out.

    >      FWIW I was a co-author of a technical book in the IBM Redbook
    > series.  The experience of sitting in an IBM facility under the
    > lash of an IBM-provided project leader was not "reflective," but
    > certainly kept extracting the daily quota of pages from the team.
    > Lots of information (and way too many screen shots, IMHO), not as
    > much "flow" as I'd have liked, but we got the book done.  It "sold"
    > (for free download) pretty well in its first few years.


    It seems that the volume of downloads would be rewarding, even without
    income. It's great to have your work appreciated.
    BruceS, Feb 26, 2010
    #6
  7. BruceS

    BruceS Guest

    Re: books by clc contributors (OT)

    On Feb 26, 10:14 am, Seebs <> wrote:
    > On 2010-02-26, BruceS <> wrote:
    >
    > > I've seen a number of critiques by some posters of books written by
    > > others (contributors or not), and this has probably been done to
    > > death.  I'm interested in the other side of it.  I've helped edit a
    > > technical book, and that was enough to make the *writing* of one look
    > > downright painful.  People have told me I should write a book, but so
    > > far I've always veered away.  If you've written a technical book, how
    > > was the experience for you?  How well did it sell, and how has that
    > > affected your experience of writing?  Would you do it again?  Is it
    > > something (like teaching) that you really only do for the joy of it,
    > > or does it pay decently?  How did you choose the specific subject area
    > > you wrote about?

    >
    > Mine wasn't on C, but I've done a lot of writing about C.
    >
    > I really enjoy writing.  That said, it doesn't pay, at least for me, as well
    > as programming.  Writing a book paid relatively poorly; writing articles
    > actually paid extremely well per hour, but I couldn't get enough hours for
    > it to be a viable career.
    >
    > In my case, the tools were pretty awful, and I hated them.  Actually, it's
    > more complicated.  I've got credit for one book done with FrameMaker, which I
    > disliked but it was livable.  I also did one in Word, which was unbelievably
    > hateful and frustrating.  I did one in DocBook, which was quite pleasant to
    > use (but the publisher got cold feet).  And I've done books for work both
    > in DocBook and FrameMaker.  Of them:
    >
    > * Tools like DocBook, coupled with the ability to write your own tools,
    >   are quite pleasant.
    > * FrameMaker is full of stupidity and poor design choices, but is basically
    >   a tool designed for writing.
    > * Word is an abomination, and any attempt to make it scale to the task of
    >   creating books is doomed to tragic failure.
    >
    > If I were writing another book, I would probably register Scrivener (an OS X
    > app that is designed EXCLUSIVELY for the task of creating and managing text),
    > use that to do the writing, then do formatting as a completely separate pass.
    > It has been consistently rewarding to me to separate those tasks.


    I hadn't even considered the problems involved in the specific tools
    used. It sounds like that makes a huge difference.

    Thanks to all who responded. As this thread really is OT here, I'll
    try to make this my last post on it. Just don't count on me
    remembering this and not starting something else OT.
    BruceS, Feb 26, 2010
    #7
  8. BruceS

    Dann Corbit Guest

    In article <b1ebb434-e530-4d95-9ae2-1437a81d73a1
    @x22g2000yqx.googlegroups.com>, says...
    >
    > I've seen a number of critiques by some posters of books written by
    > others (contributors or not), and this has probably been done to
    > death. I'm interested in the other side of it. I've helped edit a
    > technical book, and that was enough to make the *writing* of one look
    > downright painful. People have told me I should write a book, but so
    > far I've always veered away. If you've written a technical book, how
    > was the experience for you? How well did it sell, and how has that
    > affected your experience of writing? Would you do it again? Is it
    > something (like teaching) that you really only do for the joy of it,
    > or does it pay decently? How did you choose the specific subject area
    > you wrote about?
    >
    > That's a lot of questions, so I'll quit there.


    It's great resume fluff.
    ;-)
    Dann Corbit, Feb 26, 2010
    #8
  9. BruceS

    James Harris Guest

    Re: books by clc contributors (OT)

    On 26 Feb, 21:01, BruceS <> wrote:
    > On Feb 26, 10:01 am, Eric Sosman <> wrote:

    ....
    > >      Your questions might get better answers in newsgroups with
    > > "writer" or "writing" or "author" somewhere in the title, but I
    > > don't frequent them and can't say which are worth while and which
    > > aren't.

    >
    > Ah, yes, the thread really is OT here.  I apologize, and will try to
    > avoid that in future.  Thanks for pointing it out.


    I don't think your question is off topic. Where else would you ask
    what books were written by comp.lang.c contributors? :)

    James
    James Harris, Feb 26, 2010
    #9
  10. BruceS

    Eric Sosman Guest

    Re: books by clc contributors (OT)

    On 2/26/2010 4:01 PM, BruceS wrote:
    > On Feb 26, 10:01 am, Eric Sosman<> wrote:
    >> [...]
    >> FWIW I was a co-author of a technical book in the IBM Redbook
    >> series. [...] It "sold"
    >> (for free download) pretty well in its first few years.

    >
    > It seems that the volume of downloads would be rewarding, even without
    > income. It's great to have your work appreciated.


    An added benefit: There's an annual conference/trade show for
    the IBM product that was the book's topic. People wear all kinds
    of buttons and badges and bedizenry at trade shows, and one of mine
    says "I Am A Redbook Author." When my former employer's sales folks
    would call me in to meet with a customer or prospect ("We've arranged
    for you to meet our guru!"), I'd sit there wearing my Redbook button
    and my conference badge with the "Speaker" label and try to look like
    a Pro From Dover. If I'd had a long, Gandalf-style beard, I'd have
    stroked it sagely (probably when completely at sea).

    I've never found another setting where "I'm an author!" was
    of the slightest use. A source of modest pride, though: Yes.

    --
    Eric Sosman
    lid
    Eric Sosman, Feb 26, 2010
    #10
  11. BruceS

    Seebs Guest

    Re: books by clc contributors (OT)

    On 2010-02-26, Eric Sosman <> wrote:
    > I've never found another setting where "I'm an author!" was
    > of the slightest use. A source of modest pride, though: Yes.


    It can occasionally be useful in the same way as any other credential; a way
    to short-cut through some of the tedious work of establishing that you're
    not an idiot so someone will listen to you. It's not completely reliable,
    though, as idiots can get published.

    -s
    --
    Copyright 2010, all wrongs reversed. Peter Seebach /
    http://www.seebs.net/log/ <-- lawsuits, religion, and funny pictures
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Game_(Scientology) <-- get educated!
    Seebs, Feb 26, 2010
    #11
  12. Re: books by clc contributors (OT)

    "BruceS" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Feb 26, 10:14 am, Seebs <> wrote:

    <snip>
    >>
    >> If I were writing another book, I would probably register Scrivener (an
    >> OS X
    >> app that is designed EXCLUSIVELY for the task of creating and managing
    >> text),
    >> use that to do the writing, then do formatting as a completely separate
    >> pass.
    >> It has been consistently rewarding to me to separate those tasks.

    >
    > I hadn't even considered the problems involved in the specific tools
    > used. It sounds like that makes a huge difference.
    >
    > Thanks to all who responded. As this thread really is OT here, I'll
    > try to make this my last post on it. Just don't count on me
    > remembering this and not starting something else OT.


    Yeah, it might get in the way of the latest spinoza1111 rant.

    Dennis
    Dennis \(Icarus\), Feb 28, 2010
    #12
  13. Ben Pfaff wrote:
    > BruceS <> writes:
    >
    >> If you've written a technical book, how was the experience for
    >> you? How well did it sell, and how has that affected your
    >> experience of writing? Would you do it again?


    I have the unequal experience of reading about clc in _Unleashed_ and
    finding the authors here. Lawrence Kirby and Jack Klein were hanging
    around back then. So Dann Corbit became the sort guy, because that was
    his chapter.

    Heathfield described clc as a "rough and tumble place." I was hooked.
    >
    > I contributed a chapter to _C Unleashed_. It took more time than
    > it was worth: I only made about $1000 (before taxes) and spent, I
    > imagine, hundreds of hours on it. The reviewing was very poor
    > also (although I hear that other contributors had better
    > editors).


    Your chapter is eminently readable. I think it's gotta be tough to find
    editors who know the jargon and want to work for the type of peanuts you
    were making.
    >
    > In the future, I am more likely to release my writings for free
    > on the Internet than to write them for a publisher, at least if
    > the publisher gets all the rights. I hear a lot more about GNU
    > libavl (which is sort of an online book of mine) than I ever do
    > about C Unleashed.


    I don't mean to compound your frustration here, but is this library from
    the avl that came on the source disc?

    What rights do you mean here? Isn't it somwewhat contrary to the gnu
    license to restrict distribution?
    --
    fred
    Phred Phungus, Feb 28, 2010
    #13
  14. BruceS

    Ben Pfaff Guest

    Phred Phungus <> writes:

    > Ben Pfaff wrote:
    >> In the future, I am more likely to release my writings for free
    >> on the Internet than to write them for a publisher, at least if
    >> the publisher gets all the rights. I hear a lot more about GNU
    >> libavl (which is sort of an online book of mine) than I ever do
    >> about C Unleashed.

    >
    > I don't mean to compound your frustration here, but is this library
    > from the avl that came on the source disc?


    No, it is at http://adtinfo.org.

    > What rights do you mean here? Isn't it somwewhat contrary to the gnu
    > license to restrict distribution?


    I mean, I signed over the copyright and other rights to the text
    of that chapter to the publisher.
    --
    char a[]="\n .CJacehknorstu";int putchar(int);int main(void){unsigned long b[]
    ={0x67dffdff,0x9aa9aa6a,0xa77ffda9,0x7da6aa6a,0xa67f6aaa,0xaa9aa9f6,0x11f6},*p
    =b,i=24;for(;p+=!*p;*p/=4)switch(0[p]&3)case 0:{return 0;for(p--;i--;i--)case+
    2:{i++;if(i)break;else default:continue;if(0)case 1:putchar(a[i&15]);break;}}}
    Ben Pfaff, Feb 28, 2010
    #14
  15. BruceS

    jacob navia Guest

    BruceS a écrit :
    > I've seen a number of critiques by some posters of books written by
    > others (contributors or not), and this has probably been done to
    > death. I'm interested in the other side of it. I've helped edit a
    > technical book, and that was enough to make the *writing* of one look
    > downright painful. People have told me I should write a book, but so
    > far I've always veered away. If you've written a technical book, how
    > was the experience for you?


    It is a lot of work


    How well did it sell, and how has that
    > affected your experience of writing?


    This book has helped my compiler system to be a long time
    hit in the downloaded copies side: the book provides a lot of
    documentation about C, windows, and some other subjects. It has
    helped make lcc-win popular


    Would you do it again?

    Yes

    Is it
    > something (like teaching) that you really only do for the joy of it,
    > or does it pay decently?


    lcc-win has payed OK. The book is distributed at no charge, like
    the software

    How did you choose the specific subject area
    > you wrote about?
    >


    I wanted to document the user side of my software.
    I wrte another, explaining the technical side but it wasn't as populaer
    and I did not go on with it.

    You can download it with the software at

    http://www.q-software-solutions.de

    jacob
    jacob navia, Feb 28, 2010
    #15
  16. On Feb 26, 6:20 pm, BruceS <> wrote:
    >
    > If you've written a technical book, how was the experience for you?  
    >

    It's a lot of intensive effort. Interestingly, it seems to enhance
    productivity in other things. The times when I'm writing are also the
    times when I'm getting a lot done at work.
    >
    > How well did it sell, and how has that affected your experience of writing?  
    >

    I wrote "MiniBasic, how to write a script interpreter" and "Basic
    Algorithms". MiniBasic sells ten copies for every one of Basic
    Algorithms. However neither book sells spectacularly well. I get a
    trickle of sales and it's rare for a week to go by without someone
    buying a copy, on the other hand I've never yet managed to make a sale
    on every single day of a week.
    >
    > Would you do it again?  Is it
    > something (like teaching) that you really only do for the joy of it,
    > or does it pay decently?  How did you choose the specific subject area
    > you wrote about?
    >

    I offered Basic Algorithms to Wiley, who didn't reply, and to
    O'Reilley, who told me that they can't sell C books, and that the
    target audience wasn't closely enough defined. However they said they
    liked the style of the book and asked me if I would like to submit a
    proposal for another one, in a more modern language, and on a narrower
    topic. So far I haven't had any really good ideas, and I'm just
    starting a new job. Also, there's a work of fiction I'd like to write.
    [OT if anyone wants to preview a children's boarding school story,
    just contact me or reply here].
    Malcolm McLean, Mar 1, 2010
    #16
  17. BruceS

    Richard Bos Guest

    Re: books by clc contributors (OT)

    Eric Sosman <> wrote:

    > I've never found another setting where "I'm an author!" was
    > of the slightest use. A source of modest pride, though: Yes.


    'Tis pleasant, sure, to see one's name in print;
    A book's a book, although there's nothing in't.
    -- George Gordon, Lord Byron,
    English Bards and Scottish Reviewers

    Richard
    Richard Bos, Mar 1, 2010
    #17
  18. Re: books by clc contributors (OT)

    Richard Bos wrote:
    > Eric Sosman <> wrote:
    >
    >> I've never found another setting where "I'm an author!" was
    >> of the slightest use. A source of modest pride, though: Yes.

    >
    > 'Tis pleasant, sure, to see one's name in print;
    > A book's a book, although there's nothing in't.
    > -- George Gordon, Lord Byron,
    > English Bards and Scottish Reviewers
    >
    > Richard


    Nice. If I were saying this, I would make 'print' rhyme with "didn't,"
    as said by a black female waving her finger at you.

    "Oh no you didn't."

    The second d is not pronounced at all. This gives it two syllables,
    which is better for the meter.
    --
    fred
    Phred Phungus, Mar 1, 2010
    #18
  19. Ben Pfaff wrote:
    > Phred Phungus <> writes:
    >
    >> Ben Pfaff wrote:
    >>> In the future, I am more likely to release my writings for free
    >>> on the Internet than to write them for a publisher, at least if
    >>> the publisher gets all the rights. I hear a lot more about GNU
    >>> libavl (which is sort of an online book of mine) than I ever do
    >>> about C Unleashed.

    >> I don't mean to compound your frustration here, but is this library
    >> from the avl that came on the source disc?

    >
    > No, it is at http://adtinfo.org.


    Can you say a few words about glib? In particular, is GTK+ something
    relevant to ubuntu?
    >
    >> What rights do you mean here? Isn't it somwewhat contrary to the gnu
    >> license to restrict distribution?

    >
    > I mean, I signed over the copyright and other rights to the text
    > of that chapter to the publisher.


    So you can't use your own tree chapter. Get the same crew together for
    the same material, but derange the association between author and
    chapter. Publish it exerting your own rights.
    --
    fred
    Phred Phungus, Mar 3, 2010
    #19
    1. Advertising

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