building a web site with html

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Richard, Oct 2, 2004.

  1. Richard

    Richard Guest

    Hi,

    I want to build a web site containing pictures, Flash animations,
    Flash games and later on a little store. Can I do all that with html and
    Flash or do I need some commercial software such as Dreamweaver?

    Thanks,

    Richard
     
    Richard, Oct 2, 2004
    #1
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  2. "Richard" <> wrote:

    > I want to build a web site containing pictures, Flash
    > animations,
    > Flash games and later on a little store. Can I do all that with html
    > and Flash or do I need some commercial software such as Dreamweaver?


    The commercial software makes building a page easier. A pro can sit down
    with Notepad - except for the Flash content.

    Flash is commercial software, and entire websites can be built with it.
    It might make building a store easier, but - BUT - you may want to look
    at service providers who can run the "store" part of your site.

    Generally, building an all-Flash site is a bad idea, because you really
    learn nothing about web pages that way and you have to rely 100% on the
    tool. The product is called "Flash" for a reason! Many all-Flash sites
    have severe useability issues on different browser settings - "but it
    looks great at 1280x760!" - LOL. The cry of the Flash weenie.

    The Doormouse

    --
    The Doormouse cannot be reached by e-mail without her permission.
     
    The Doormouse, Oct 2, 2004
    #2
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  3. Richard

    SpaceGirl Guest

    The Doormouse wrote:

    > "Richard" <> wrote:
    >
    >
    >> I want to build a web site containing pictures, Flash
    >> animations,
    >>Flash games and later on a little store. Can I do all that with html
    >>and Flash or do I need some commercial software such as Dreamweaver?

    >
    >
    > The commercial software makes building a page easier. A pro can sit down
    > with Notepad - except for the Flash content.
    >
    > Flash is commercial software, and entire websites can be built with it.
    > It might make building a store easier, but - BUT - you may want to look
    > at service providers who can run the "store" part of your site.
    >
    > Generally, building an all-Flash site is a bad idea, because you really
    > learn nothing about web pages that way and you have to rely 100% on the
    > tool. The product is called "Flash" for a reason! Many all-Flash sites
    > have severe useability issues on different browser settings - "but it
    > looks great at 1280x760!" - LOL. The cry of the Flash weenie.
    >
    > The Doormouse
    >


    Far less issues than HTML tho... at least you know your Flash will be
    exactly the same in all browsers, all platforms - unlike HTML.

    --


    x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

    # lead designer @ http://www.dhnewmedia.com #
    # remove NO SPAM to email, or use form on website #
     
    SpaceGirl, Oct 2, 2004
    #3
  4. Richard

    Richard Guest

    "The Doormouse" <> wrote in message
    news:Xns957665F892106doormouseattnet@68.12.19.6...
    > "Richard" <> wrote:
    >
    >> I want to build a web site containing pictures, Flash
    >> animations,
    >> Flash games and later on a little store. Can I do all that with html
    >> and Flash or do I need some commercial software such as Dreamweaver?

    >
    > The commercial software makes building a page easier. A pro can sit down
    > with Notepad - except for the Flash content.
    >
    > Flash is commercial software, and entire websites can be built with it.
    > It might make building a store easier, but - BUT - you may want to look
    > at service providers who can run the "store" part of your site.
    >
    > Generally, building an all-Flash site is a bad idea, because you really
    > learn nothing about web pages that way and you have to rely 100% on the
    > tool. The product is called "Flash" for a reason! Many all-Flash sites
    > have severe useability issues on different browser settings - "but it
    > looks great at 1280x760!" - LOL. The cry of the Flash weenie.
    >
    > The Doormouse
    >
    > --
    > The Doormouse cannot be reached by e-mail without her permission.


    Hi,

    I don't want to use Flash to build my web site. I want only to use
    Flash to build animations and Flash games. I want to know if it is possible
    to build the rest of the web site in HTML or do I need commercial software
    such as Dreamweaver, especially for the web store part.

    Thanks,

    Renoir
     
    Richard, Oct 2, 2004
    #4
  5. Richard

    Richard Guest

    "SpaceGirl" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > The Doormouse wrote:
    >
    >> "Richard" <> wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>> I want to build a web site containing pictures, Flash
    >>> animations, Flash games and later on a little store. Can I do all
    >>> that with html
    >>>and Flash or do I need some commercial software such as Dreamweaver?

    >>
    >>
    >> The commercial software makes building a page easier. A pro can sit down
    >> with Notepad - except for the Flash content.
    >>
    >> Flash is commercial software, and entire websites can be built with it.
    >> It might make building a store easier, but - BUT - you may want to look
    >> at service providers who can run the "store" part of your site.
    >> Generally, building an all-Flash site is a bad idea, because you really
    >> learn nothing about web pages that way and you have to rely 100% on the
    >> tool. The product is called "Flash" for a reason! Many all-Flash sites
    >> have severe useability issues on different browser settings - "but it
    >> looks great at 1280x760!" - LOL. The cry of the Flash weenie.
    >>
    >> The Doormouse
    >>

    >
    > Far less issues than HTML tho... at least you know your Flash will be
    > exactly the same in all browsers, all platforms - unlike HTML.
    >
    > --
    >
    >
    > x theSpaceGirl (miranda)
    >
    > # lead designer @ http://www.dhnewmedia.com #
    > # remove NO SPAM to email, or use form on website #


    Does the problem that you write also exist with commercial software
    such as Dreamweaver?

    Thanks,

    Richard
     
    Richard, Oct 2, 2004
    #5
  6. Richard

    Deryck Guest

    "Richard" <> wrote in message
    news:B6C7d.35621$...
    >
    > I want to know if it is possible to build the rest of the web site
    > in HTML or do I need commercial software such as Dreamweaver, especially
    > for the web store part.
    >

    You will need some Javascript or server side stuff such as PHP for the
    webstore part.
    The rest of the site can be written in just HTML if you wish.
    You can use Dreamweaver to write the HTML if you wish, or you can use other
    HTML editors or just a text editor.
    Dreamweaver will not help you write the Javascript/PHP part (a text editor
    will do for that).

    Hope thats clearer,


    Deryck
     
    Deryck, Oct 2, 2004
    #6
  7. In article <>,
    SpaceGirl <> wrote:
    >
    > Far less issues than HTML tho... at least you know your Flash will be
    > exactly the same...


    That's kind of like slagging on cars because they don't (normally
    <cough>) fly like airplanes. They're not *supposed* to, so it's not a
    helpful comparison. Similarly, HTML has never claimed to render exactly
    the same in different situations. Its inability to do so is often
    considered a strength.

    > in all browsers, all platforms


    .... "Where Flash is supported." At least with HTML, if you have a
    browser it's likely to be supported, albeit crappily in certain cases.

    --
    Joel.
     
    Joel Shepherd, Oct 2, 2004
    #7
  8. Richard

    Neal Guest

    On Sat, 2 Oct 2004 12:27:19 -0400, Richard <> wrote:

    > Hi,
    >
    > I want to build a web site containing pictures, Flash animations,
    > Flash games and later on a little store. Can I do all that with html and
    > Flash or do I need some commercial software such as Dreamweaver?


    The basic web page - I never use authoring software, aside from Crimson
    Editor which color-highlights code for me. So sure, anything you want to
    do in HTML and CSS, you can type it in by hand. It might take a while, but
    if you're new to it, I recommend taking a while. Too many new authors rely
    on the program to do the thinking, and that's a very wrong approach -
    similar to allowing Microsoft Word decide the layout of your letter on its
    own, or allowing Paint Shop Pro to choose the way to save an image despite
    your application for the image.

    The Flash, of course, needs to be created with software. It can be
    included into the HTML page rather simply, though it's a bit quirky in
    some browsers and a little backfitting is needed to make it work. I think
    it's Spartanicus who has a page on including Flash into a webpage, not
    sure if I remember correctly.

    The store - this will require probably PHP. That's a little beyond me, but
    unless you're going big time, you could use PayPal and simplify things.
    Or, go full out and find/write a script which takes orders, credit
    information, etc. I'd go the "find" route, and look for something which is
    positively secure.

    So, to answer the last question, you don't NEED Dreamweaver. In fact,
    unless you can do a whole page by hand, I don't recommend it. You'll lean
    too heavily on it to do the work.
     
    Neal, Oct 2, 2004
    #8
  9. Richard

    Neal Guest

    On Sat, 02 Oct 2004 18:42:32 GMT, Joel Shepherd <>
    wrote:

    > In article <>,
    > SpaceGirl <> wrote:
    >
    >> (Flash websites work consistently) in all browsers, all platforms

    >
    > ... "Where Flash is supported." At least with HTML, if you have a
    > browser it's likely to be supported, albeit crappily in certain cases.


    Although in this case, the content is Flash games and animations. There is
    an argument that unless you can use Flash, this site would not be useful
    anyway.

    Here's an example: http://www.homestarrunner.com/ . This is a site that's
    html-page-based but nearly all content is Flash. It works superbly, if not
    perfectly, in all Flash-enabled browsers I've tried, and it doesn't matter
    whether it does or not in a no-Flash environment. Plus it's one of the
    more creative sites on the WWW IMO.

    In cases where the Flash is not the whole of the content, it can be argued
    that it should be optional and the page should still work, so you can find
    things on one no-Flash computer for use on another Flash-enabled browser,
    for instance.
     
    Neal, Oct 2, 2004
    #9
  10. Richard

    Steve Pugh Guest

    On Sat, 2 Oct 2004 14:06:15 -0400, "Richard" <>
    wrote:
    >
    > I don't want to use Flash to build my web site. I want only to use
    >Flash to build animations and Flash games. I want to know if it is possible
    >to build the rest of the web site in HTML or do I need commercial software
    >such as Dreamweaver, especially for the web store part.


    Dreamweaver is just a tool to help you generate HTML. The quality of
    the HTML is generates is directly proportional to the level of
    knowledge of the user - people who have a good knowledge of HTML can
    produce good HTML with DW, people who don't, don't.

    To make a 'web store' you'll need some sort of server side language -
    Perl, PHP, ASP, Cold Fusion, JSP, etc., etc. - and probably a database
    as well - MySQL, SQL Server, Oracle, etc., etc. Whilst DW is designed
    to help you create pages that integrate with the commonest languages
    and databases it can't do the work for you. So if you don't have the
    skills your self you'll either need to purchase an off the shelf
    e-commerce package or hire someone who knows what they're doing.

    Steve
     
    Steve Pugh, Oct 2, 2004
    #10
  11. "Richard" <> wrote:

    > I don't want to use Flash to build my web site. I want only to use
    > Flash to build animations and Flash games. I want to know if it is
    > possible to build the rest of the web site in HTML or do I need
    > commercial software such as Dreamweaver, especially for the web store
    > part.


    Yes, build the rest of the site in HTML.

    Yes, you could use commercial software.
    Yes, you could use commercial software for the web store part.

    There are other options for your web store - Miva being one. Google the
    rest.

    The Doormouse

    --
    The Doormouse cannot be reached by e-mail without her permission.
     
    The Doormouse, Oct 2, 2004
    #11
  12. Richard

    SpaceGirl Guest

    Richard wrote:

    > "SpaceGirl" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >
    >>The Doormouse wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>"Richard" <> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>> I want to build a web site containing pictures, Flash
    >>>> animations, Flash games and later on a little store. Can I do all
    >>>>that with html
    >>>>and Flash or do I need some commercial software such as Dreamweaver?
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>The commercial software makes building a page easier. A pro can sit down
    >>>with Notepad - except for the Flash content.
    >>>
    >>>Flash is commercial software, and entire websites can be built with it.
    >>>It might make building a store easier, but - BUT - you may want to look
    >>>at service providers who can run the "store" part of your site.
    >>>Generally, building an all-Flash site is a bad idea, because you really
    >>>learn nothing about web pages that way and you have to rely 100% on the
    >>>tool. The product is called "Flash" for a reason! Many all-Flash sites
    >>>have severe useability issues on different browser settings - "but it
    >>>looks great at 1280x760!" - LOL. The cry of the Flash weenie.
    >>>
    >>>The Doormouse
    >>>

    >>
    >>Far less issues than HTML tho... at least you know your Flash will be
    >>exactly the same in all browsers, all platforms - unlike HTML.
    >>
    >>--
    >>
    >>
    >>x theSpaceGirl (miranda)
    >>
    >># lead designer @ http://www.dhnewmedia.com #
    >># remove NO SPAM to email, or use form on website #

    >
    >
    > Does the problem that you write also exist with commercial software
    > such as Dreamweaver?
    >
    > Thanks,
    >
    > Richard
    >
    >


    Yes - unless you know HTML already, you'll become undone pretty quickly.

    The problem is that the most commonly used web browser (Internet
    Explorer) does not render the standards properly, meaning even the most
    perfect page may NOT display correctly on it. These differences even
    appear between different versions of IE, and whether you are using IE on
    a PC or Mac... and there are HUGE differences between IE and other
    browsers (which are rapidly becoming more popular so cannont be ignored).

    Tools like DreamWeaver only *assist* you in web page building. If you
    rely on the program to do all the work you end up with a mess. Web
    design is like any other design process - it involves several different
    skills and a solid idea of what you want to achieve before you begin.
    DreamWeaver would overwelm you in functionality if you are not sure what
    you are doing / what you want, and writing pages in Notepad is a totally
    dry un-creative process.

    We use DW exclusively here, and swear by it but my partner and I know
    HTML inside out - but I'd not suggest for a second it's a beginners tool.

    A tool like Flash pretty much does away with all these issues are the
    rendering is 100% the same on any platform that supports Flash.

    --


    x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

    # lead designer @ http://www.dhnewmedia.com #
    # remove NO SPAM to email, or use form on website #
     
    SpaceGirl, Oct 2, 2004
    #12
  13. Neal <> wrote:

    > Too many new authors rely
    > on the program to do the thinking


    That's true, and also many people design in front of their keyboard. :)

    The Doormouse

    --
    The Doormouse cannot be reached by e-mail without her permission.
     
    The Doormouse, Oct 2, 2004
    #13
  14. Richard

    kchayka Guest

    SpaceGirl wrote:
    >
    > at least you know your Flash will be
    > exactly the same in all browsers, all platforms - unlike HTML.


    Too bad your Flash won't be usable for as many visitors as HTML, though.
    Flash puts all the control in the hands of the designer, and gives
    virtually none to the user.

    At least HTML is inherently flexible so the visitor can change the text
    size to meet their needs. Have you ever tried to use the zoom feature of
    Flash? It sucks - majorly. I'm still waiting to find a Flash site that
    is even remotely usable for me. I don't have high expectations I'll ever
    come across one.

    --
    Reply email address is a bottomless spam bucket.
    Please reply to the group so everyone can share.
     
    kchayka, Oct 2, 2004
    #14
  15. SpaceGirl <> wrote:

    > A tool like Flash pretty much does away with all these issues are the
    > rendering is 100% the same on any platform that supports Flash.


    Every time I see a Flash website with tiny, unreadable text, I know that
    there is a designer relying on this to be true.

    It's even worse when I visit a site and have to scroll all over the place
    to enjoy the content - again, mainly due to Flash.

    Plus, Flash is a common but proprietary format. It's up to version 6(?)
    now. Do you want to use a format that may need reauthoring in a
    commercial package? In plain words, you could be forced to buy the latest
    version of the Flash software at some point to re-engineer your content.

    Will Flash index properly on a search engine? Maybe. Newer search engines
    will index your site. Eventually. I think.

    Flash can "bulk up" a website without returning much for the investment.
    The same can be said of any graphic format, really, but 100k+ Flash sites
    are ubiquitous.

    :)

    It's not all sunshine.

    The Doormouse

    --
    The Doormouse cannot be reached by e-mail without her permission.
     
    The Doormouse, Oct 2, 2004
    #15
  16. Richard

    WebcastMaker Guest

    In article <>, says...
    > > at least you know your Flash will be
    > > exactly the same in all browsers, all platforms - unlike HTML.


    > Too bad your Flash won't be usable for as many visitors as HTML, though.
    > Flash puts all the control in the hands of the designer, and gives
    > virtually none to the user.


    Man, you all have to learn about flash.

    > At least HTML is inherently flexible so the visitor can change the text
    > size to meet their needs. Have you ever tried to use the zoom feature of
    > Flash? It sucks - majorly. I'm still waiting to find a Flash site that
    > is even remotely usable for me. I don't have high expectations I'll ever
    > come across one.


    I agree, _you_ will never find one.

    --
    WebcastMaker
    Webcasting for free
    http://www.webentations.com
    http://www.webcastmaker.com (CBT)
     
    WebcastMaker, Oct 2, 2004
    #16
  17. Richard

    WebcastMaker Guest

    In article <B6C7d.35621$>,
    says...
    > I don't want to use Flash to build my web site. I want only to use
    > Flash to build animations and Flash games. I want to know if it is possible
    > to build the rest of the web site in HTML or do I need commercial software
    > such as Dreamweaver, especially for the web store part.


    Someone put up the list of FREE html editors for this man
    --
    WebcastMaker
    Webcasting for free
    http://www.webentations.com
    http://www.webcastmaker.com (CBT)
     
    WebcastMaker, Oct 2, 2004
    #17
  18. Richard

    Andy Dingley Guest

    On Sat, 2 Oct 2004 12:27:19 -0400, "Richard" <>
    wrote:

    > I want to build a web site containing pictures, Flash animations,
    >Flash games and later on a little store. Can I do all that with html and
    >Flash or do I need some commercial software such as Dreamweaver?


    There are two sorts of software used in website building; "tools" and
    "servers" (for very loose definitions). "Tools" are things that
    _you_ use on your development machine, and you use them once whilst
    building the site. "Servers" are things that you run at the hosting
    company's site, many of which they supply for you. You need to operate
    these for the life of the site.

    Tools you really need start with the basics like a text editor and a
    graphic editor. These are all I use - TextPad is a good editor and
    dirt cheap, with a free trial first. Photoshop is the dominant image
    editor, but PaintshopPro is rather cheaper. I suggest Photoshop,
    simply because it's so widespread.

    If you want to use Flash, then you also need to either buy some
    Flash-creating tools, or even better is to employ the services of a
    good Flash coder. More than anything else in website design, Flash
    coding is an artistic skill that requires good graphic design skills
    more than any web-savvy. After all, these things are basically
    animated cartoons - maybe you're the next Tim Burton, but I know I'm
    not.

    Don't over-use Flash. Don't rely on it, dont make "the web site"
    depend on it. Offer Flash games, use it for amusing animations, even
    make yourself a cartoon-themed site that's simply pointless without
    Flash (look at Weebl and Bob), but Flash is its own reward and not a
    way of building "the web".


    As a way of avoiding the need to learn HTML, then most beginners start
    out with Dreamweaver, FrontPage, or some similar tool. These things
    are all widely despised hereabouts, and even more so over in
    c.i.w.a.h. HTML is not hard, and good HTML design requires you to
    understand HTML code. So what are these drag-and-drool tools really
    offering you ? Some of them (mainly FrontPage) are just very, very
    bad at their job too.

    So learn to code HTML by hand. It's far better, and nearly always
    quicker too.


    As for the server software, then for pictures, HTML and Flash, then
    you don't need anything beyond the basic server package offered by
    your hosting company. This will be Linux and Apache. Look very long
    and hard at anything that isn't (BSD is maybe acceptable). Don't
    even think about Windows hosting unless your boss is threatening to
    drown either a) kittens, b) puppies or c) you if you don't.

    If you get into "stores", then you still don't need to go near PHP,
    MySQL or the rest. It is just not a sensible commercial position to
    ask "Should I be using Dreamweaver ?" and "How do I build a store ?"
    in the same question.

    Stores are _hard_. Stores must be _reliable_. Stores handle people's
    _money_, and some of that might one day be _my_ money! So I really
    don;t want you even thinking about building your own store --- you
    don't have anything like the experience needed to do a good job of
    this. Sorry, but you don't. Maybe you're brilliant, but if you're
    asking questions at this level, you're just nowhere near the position
    you need to be at to build a store from scratch.

    So what do you do ? You buy in a store. Talk to local and reliable
    ecommerce suppliers - small firms of under half-a-dozen people who
    have a good track record of building sites for local firms. It isn't
    1999 any more - such people are now around in any city and they have
    experience that it's worth paying your own good money for. Find them
    by asking local firms who've used them, and by looking at the sites
    they've produced. These days it's not even expensive to do this -
    their experience means they'll do it far faster than you ever could
    for your first site.

    Then this firm won't write a store for you either. They'll buy in the
    code from outside, install it for you and run that. There are any
    number of well established ecomm platforms to suit any size of site
    and pocket. At the very lowest end, just host the thing on a package
    deal from Yahoo (Tim forbid that you'd actually choose Yahoo, but you
    get the idea)

    No-one should be writing web stores form scratch. It's 2004, we've
    already got loads of the things. Doing it well is _hard_ and it
    doesn't get much easier. There's a whole range of wheels out there,
    don't go re-inventing them, even if you are skilled enough to do it.


    --
    Smert' spamionam
     
    Andy Dingley, Oct 2, 2004
    #18
  19. "Andy Dingley" <> skrev i meddelandet
    news:...
    > On Sat, 2 Oct 2004 12:27:19 -0400, "Richard" <>
    > wrote:
    > As a way of avoiding the need to learn HTML, then most beginners start
    > out with Dreamweaver, FrontPage, or some similar tool. These things
    > are all widely despised hereabouts, and even more so over in
    > c.i.w.a.h. HTML is not hard, and good HTML design requires you to
    > understand HTML code. So what are these drag-and-drool tools really
    > offering you ? Some of them (mainly FrontPage) are just very, very
    > bad at their job too.
    >
    > So learn to code HTML by hand. It's far better, and nearly always
    > quicker too.


    I share your opinion.


    --
    Luigi ( un italiano che vive in Svezia)
    http://www.italymap.dk/sv/italien-karta.html
    http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/sv/presentartiklar-art.v67.html
     
    Luigi Donatello Asero, Oct 2, 2004
    #19
  20. Richard

    Andy Dingley Guest

    On Sat, 2 Oct 2004 17:27:37 -0400, WebcastMaker <>
    wrote:

    >Man, you all have to learn about flash.


    So, educate me.

    How practical is it to build a Flash-heavy site, and give my users
    easy control of font sizes, such as I get very easily with HTML, CSS
    and using em sizing. This isn't happening. Is that because it can;t
    be done, or because it isn't being done, but should be ?
     
    Andy Dingley, Oct 3, 2004
    #20
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