building a web site with html

R

Richard

Hi,

I want to build a web site containing pictures, Flash animations,
Flash games and later on a little store. Can I do all that with html and
Flash or do I need some commercial software such as Dreamweaver?

Thanks,

Richard
 
T

The Doormouse

Richard said:
I want to build a web site containing pictures, Flash
animations,
Flash games and later on a little store. Can I do all that with html
and Flash or do I need some commercial software such as Dreamweaver?

The commercial software makes building a page easier. A pro can sit down
with Notepad - except for the Flash content.

Flash is commercial software, and entire websites can be built with it.
It might make building a store easier, but - BUT - you may want to look
at service providers who can run the "store" part of your site.

Generally, building an all-Flash site is a bad idea, because you really
learn nothing about web pages that way and you have to rely 100% on the
tool. The product is called "Flash" for a reason! Many all-Flash sites
have severe useability issues on different browser settings - "but it
looks great at 1280x760!" - LOL. The cry of the Flash weenie.

The Doormouse
 
S

SpaceGirl

The said:
The commercial software makes building a page easier. A pro can sit down
with Notepad - except for the Flash content.

Flash is commercial software, and entire websites can be built with it.
It might make building a store easier, but - BUT - you may want to look
at service providers who can run the "store" part of your site.

Generally, building an all-Flash site is a bad idea, because you really
learn nothing about web pages that way and you have to rely 100% on the
tool. The product is called "Flash" for a reason! Many all-Flash sites
have severe useability issues on different browser settings - "but it
looks great at 1280x760!" - LOL. The cry of the Flash weenie.

The Doormouse

Far less issues than HTML tho... at least you know your Flash will be
exactly the same in all browsers, all platforms - unlike HTML.

--


x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

# lead designer @ http://www.dhnewmedia.com #
# remove NO SPAM to email, or use form on website #
 
R

Richard

The Doormouse said:
The commercial software makes building a page easier. A pro can sit down
with Notepad - except for the Flash content.

Flash is commercial software, and entire websites can be built with it.
It might make building a store easier, but - BUT - you may want to look
at service providers who can run the "store" part of your site.

Generally, building an all-Flash site is a bad idea, because you really
learn nothing about web pages that way and you have to rely 100% on the
tool. The product is called "Flash" for a reason! Many all-Flash sites
have severe useability issues on different browser settings - "but it
looks great at 1280x760!" - LOL. The cry of the Flash weenie.

The Doormouse

Hi,

I don't want to use Flash to build my web site. I want only to use
Flash to build animations and Flash games. I want to know if it is possible
to build the rest of the web site in HTML or do I need commercial software
such as Dreamweaver, especially for the web store part.

Thanks,

Renoir
 
R

Richard

SpaceGirl said:
Far less issues than HTML tho... at least you know your Flash will be
exactly the same in all browsers, all platforms - unlike HTML.

--


x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

# lead designer @ http://www.dhnewmedia.com #
# remove NO SPAM to email, or use form on website #

Does the problem that you write also exist with commercial software
such as Dreamweaver?

Thanks,

Richard
 
D

Deryck

Richard said:
I want to know if it is possible to build the rest of the web site
in HTML or do I need commercial software such as Dreamweaver, especially
for the web store part.
You will need some Javascript or server side stuff such as PHP for the
webstore part.
The rest of the site can be written in just HTML if you wish.
You can use Dreamweaver to write the HTML if you wish, or you can use other
HTML editors or just a text editor.
Dreamweaver will not help you write the Javascript/PHP part (a text editor
will do for that).

Hope thats clearer,


Deryck
 
J

Joel Shepherd

Far less issues than HTML tho... at least you know your Flash will be
exactly the same...

That's kind of like slagging on cars because they don't (normally
<cough>) fly like airplanes. They're not *supposed* to, so it's not a
helpful comparison. Similarly, HTML has never claimed to render exactly
the same in different situations. Its inability to do so is often
considered a strength.
in all browsers, all platforms

.... "Where Flash is supported." At least with HTML, if you have a
browser it's likely to be supported, albeit crappily in certain cases.
 
N

Neal

Hi,

I want to build a web site containing pictures, Flash animations,
Flash games and later on a little store. Can I do all that with html and
Flash or do I need some commercial software such as Dreamweaver?

The basic web page - I never use authoring software, aside from Crimson
Editor which color-highlights code for me. So sure, anything you want to
do in HTML and CSS, you can type it in by hand. It might take a while, but
if you're new to it, I recommend taking a while. Too many new authors rely
on the program to do the thinking, and that's a very wrong approach -
similar to allowing Microsoft Word decide the layout of your letter on its
own, or allowing Paint Shop Pro to choose the way to save an image despite
your application for the image.

The Flash, of course, needs to be created with software. It can be
included into the HTML page rather simply, though it's a bit quirky in
some browsers and a little backfitting is needed to make it work. I think
it's Spartanicus who has a page on including Flash into a webpage, not
sure if I remember correctly.

The store - this will require probably PHP. That's a little beyond me, but
unless you're going big time, you could use PayPal and simplify things.
Or, go full out and find/write a script which takes orders, credit
information, etc. I'd go the "find" route, and look for something which is
positively secure.

So, to answer the last question, you don't NEED Dreamweaver. In fact,
unless you can do a whole page by hand, I don't recommend it. You'll lean
too heavily on it to do the work.
 
N

Neal

... "Where Flash is supported." At least with HTML, if you have a
browser it's likely to be supported, albeit crappily in certain cases.

Although in this case, the content is Flash games and animations. There is
an argument that unless you can use Flash, this site would not be useful
anyway.

Here's an example: http://www.homestarrunner.com/ . This is a site that's
html-page-based but nearly all content is Flash. It works superbly, if not
perfectly, in all Flash-enabled browsers I've tried, and it doesn't matter
whether it does or not in a no-Flash environment. Plus it's one of the
more creative sites on the WWW IMO.

In cases where the Flash is not the whole of the content, it can be argued
that it should be optional and the page should still work, so you can find
things on one no-Flash computer for use on another Flash-enabled browser,
for instance.
 
S

Steve Pugh

I don't want to use Flash to build my web site. I want only to use
Flash to build animations and Flash games. I want to know if it is possible
to build the rest of the web site in HTML or do I need commercial software
such as Dreamweaver, especially for the web store part.

Dreamweaver is just a tool to help you generate HTML. The quality of
the HTML is generates is directly proportional to the level of
knowledge of the user - people who have a good knowledge of HTML can
produce good HTML with DW, people who don't, don't.

To make a 'web store' you'll need some sort of server side language -
Perl, PHP, ASP, Cold Fusion, JSP, etc., etc. - and probably a database
as well - MySQL, SQL Server, Oracle, etc., etc. Whilst DW is designed
to help you create pages that integrate with the commonest languages
and databases it can't do the work for you. So if you don't have the
skills your self you'll either need to purchase an off the shelf
e-commerce package or hire someone who knows what they're doing.

Steve
 
T

The Doormouse

Richard said:
I don't want to use Flash to build my web site. I want only to use
Flash to build animations and Flash games. I want to know if it is
possible to build the rest of the web site in HTML or do I need
commercial software such as Dreamweaver, especially for the web store
part.

Yes, build the rest of the site in HTML.

Yes, you could use commercial software.
Yes, you could use commercial software for the web store part.

There are other options for your web store - Miva being one. Google the
rest.

The Doormouse
 
S

SpaceGirl

Richard said:
Does the problem that you write also exist with commercial software
such as Dreamweaver?

Thanks,

Richard

Yes - unless you know HTML already, you'll become undone pretty quickly.

The problem is that the most commonly used web browser (Internet
Explorer) does not render the standards properly, meaning even the most
perfect page may NOT display correctly on it. These differences even
appear between different versions of IE, and whether you are using IE on
a PC or Mac... and there are HUGE differences between IE and other
browsers (which are rapidly becoming more popular so cannont be ignored).

Tools like DreamWeaver only *assist* you in web page building. If you
rely on the program to do all the work you end up with a mess. Web
design is like any other design process - it involves several different
skills and a solid idea of what you want to achieve before you begin.
DreamWeaver would overwelm you in functionality if you are not sure what
you are doing / what you want, and writing pages in Notepad is a totally
dry un-creative process.

We use DW exclusively here, and swear by it but my partner and I know
HTML inside out - but I'd not suggest for a second it's a beginners tool.

A tool like Flash pretty much does away with all these issues are the
rendering is 100% the same on any platform that supports Flash.

--


x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

# lead designer @ http://www.dhnewmedia.com #
# remove NO SPAM to email, or use form on website #
 
T

The Doormouse

Neal said:
Too many new authors rely
on the program to do the thinking

That's true, and also many people design in front of their keyboard. :)

The Doormouse
 
K

kchayka

SpaceGirl said:
at least you know your Flash will be
exactly the same in all browsers, all platforms - unlike HTML.

Too bad your Flash won't be usable for as many visitors as HTML, though.
Flash puts all the control in the hands of the designer, and gives
virtually none to the user.

At least HTML is inherently flexible so the visitor can change the text
size to meet their needs. Have you ever tried to use the zoom feature of
Flash? It sucks - majorly. I'm still waiting to find a Flash site that
is even remotely usable for me. I don't have high expectations I'll ever
come across one.
 
T

The Doormouse

SpaceGirl said:
A tool like Flash pretty much does away with all these issues are the
rendering is 100% the same on any platform that supports Flash.

Every time I see a Flash website with tiny, unreadable text, I know that
there is a designer relying on this to be true.

It's even worse when I visit a site and have to scroll all over the place
to enjoy the content - again, mainly due to Flash.

Plus, Flash is a common but proprietary format. It's up to version 6(?)
now. Do you want to use a format that may need reauthoring in a
commercial package? In plain words, you could be forced to buy the latest
version of the Flash software at some point to re-engineer your content.

Will Flash index properly on a search engine? Maybe. Newer search engines
will index your site. Eventually. I think.

Flash can "bulk up" a website without returning much for the investment.
The same can be said of any graphic format, really, but 100k+ Flash sites
are ubiquitous.

:)

It's not all sunshine.

The Doormouse
 
W

WebcastMaker

Too bad your Flash won't be usable for as many visitors as HTML, though.
Flash puts all the control in the hands of the designer, and gives
virtually none to the user.

Man, you all have to learn about flash.
At least HTML is inherently flexible so the visitor can change the text
size to meet their needs. Have you ever tried to use the zoom feature of
Flash? It sucks - majorly. I'm still waiting to find a Flash site that
is even remotely usable for me. I don't have high expectations I'll ever
come across one.

I agree, _you_ will never find one.
 
W

WebcastMaker

I don't want to use Flash to build my web site. I want only to use
Flash to build animations and Flash games. I want to know if it is possible
to build the rest of the web site in HTML or do I need commercial software
such as Dreamweaver, especially for the web store part.

Someone put up the list of FREE html editors for this man
 
A

Andy Dingley

I want to build a web site containing pictures, Flash animations,
Flash games and later on a little store. Can I do all that with html and
Flash or do I need some commercial software such as Dreamweaver?

There are two sorts of software used in website building; "tools" and
"servers" (for very loose definitions). "Tools" are things that
_you_ use on your development machine, and you use them once whilst
building the site. "Servers" are things that you run at the hosting
company's site, many of which they supply for you. You need to operate
these for the life of the site.

Tools you really need start with the basics like a text editor and a
graphic editor. These are all I use - TextPad is a good editor and
dirt cheap, with a free trial first. Photoshop is the dominant image
editor, but PaintshopPro is rather cheaper. I suggest Photoshop,
simply because it's so widespread.

If you want to use Flash, then you also need to either buy some
Flash-creating tools, or even better is to employ the services of a
good Flash coder. More than anything else in website design, Flash
coding is an artistic skill that requires good graphic design skills
more than any web-savvy. After all, these things are basically
animated cartoons - maybe you're the next Tim Burton, but I know I'm
not.

Don't over-use Flash. Don't rely on it, dont make "the web site"
depend on it. Offer Flash games, use it for amusing animations, even
make yourself a cartoon-themed site that's simply pointless without
Flash (look at Weebl and Bob), but Flash is its own reward and not a
way of building "the web".


As a way of avoiding the need to learn HTML, then most beginners start
out with Dreamweaver, FrontPage, or some similar tool. These things
are all widely despised hereabouts, and even more so over in
c.i.w.a.h. HTML is not hard, and good HTML design requires you to
understand HTML code. So what are these drag-and-drool tools really
offering you ? Some of them (mainly FrontPage) are just very, very
bad at their job too.

So learn to code HTML by hand. It's far better, and nearly always
quicker too.


As for the server software, then for pictures, HTML and Flash, then
you don't need anything beyond the basic server package offered by
your hosting company. This will be Linux and Apache. Look very long
and hard at anything that isn't (BSD is maybe acceptable). Don't
even think about Windows hosting unless your boss is threatening to
drown either a) kittens, b) puppies or c) you if you don't.

If you get into "stores", then you still don't need to go near PHP,
MySQL or the rest. It is just not a sensible commercial position to
ask "Should I be using Dreamweaver ?" and "How do I build a store ?"
in the same question.

Stores are _hard_. Stores must be _reliable_. Stores handle people's
_money_, and some of that might one day be _my_ money! So I really
don;t want you even thinking about building your own store --- you
don't have anything like the experience needed to do a good job of
this. Sorry, but you don't. Maybe you're brilliant, but if you're
asking questions at this level, you're just nowhere near the position
you need to be at to build a store from scratch.

So what do you do ? You buy in a store. Talk to local and reliable
ecommerce suppliers - small firms of under half-a-dozen people who
have a good track record of building sites for local firms. It isn't
1999 any more - such people are now around in any city and they have
experience that it's worth paying your own good money for. Find them
by asking local firms who've used them, and by looking at the sites
they've produced. These days it's not even expensive to do this -
their experience means they'll do it far faster than you ever could
for your first site.

Then this firm won't write a store for you either. They'll buy in the
code from outside, install it for you and run that. There are any
number of well established ecomm platforms to suit any size of site
and pocket. At the very lowest end, just host the thing on a package
deal from Yahoo (Tim forbid that you'd actually choose Yahoo, but you
get the idea)

No-one should be writing web stores form scratch. It's 2004, we've
already got loads of the things. Doing it well is _hard_ and it
doesn't get much easier. There's a whole range of wheels out there,
don't go re-inventing them, even if you are skilled enough to do it.
 
L

Luigi Donatello Asero

Andy Dingley said:
As a way of avoiding the need to learn HTML, then most beginners start
out with Dreamweaver, FrontPage, or some similar tool. These things
are all widely despised hereabouts, and even more so over in
c.i.w.a.h. HTML is not hard, and good HTML design requires you to
understand HTML code. So what are these drag-and-drool tools really
offering you ? Some of them (mainly FrontPage) are just very, very
bad at their job too.

So learn to code HTML by hand. It's far better, and nearly always
quicker too.

I share your opinion.
 
A

Andy Dingley

Man, you all have to learn about flash.

So, educate me.

How practical is it to build a Flash-heavy site, and give my users
easy control of font sizes, such as I get very easily with HTML, CSS
and using em sizing. This isn't happening. Is that because it can;t
be done, or because it isn't being done, but should be ?
 

Ask a Question

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

You'll need to choose a username for the site, which only take a couple of moments. After that, you can post your question and our members will help you out.

Ask a Question

Members online

Forum statistics

Threads
473,768
Messages
2,569,574
Members
45,050
Latest member
AngelS122

Latest Threads

Top