Bundling a JRE - is a minimal install possible?

Discussion in 'Java' started by Steve Sobol, Aug 17, 2005.

  1. Steve Sobol

    Steve Sobol Guest

    The Java2 1.5 Runtime on my Windows laptop is close to 60 megs in size.

    I'd like to distribute the 1.5 J2RE with my app, but I won't need most of
    the extra baggage that gets installed when the RE is installed.

    Is there any way (from a legal/licensing standpoint as well as a technical
    standpoint) to strip the RE down? The impression I got from reading the
    licensing agreement is "no," which is a stupid move on the part of Sun, but
    maybe I'm wrong.

    --
    Steve Sobol, Professional Geek 888-480-4638 PGP: 0xE3AE35ED
    Company website: http://JustThe.net/
    Personal blog, resume, portfolio: http://SteveSobol.com/
    E: Snail: 22674 Motnocab Road, Apple Valley, CA 92307
     
    Steve Sobol, Aug 17, 2005
    #1
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  2. Steve Sobol

    Roedy Green Guest

    On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 21:04:03 -0700, Steve Sobol <>
    wrote or quoted :

    >Is there any way (from a legal/licensing standpoint as well as a technical
    >standpoint) to strip the RE down? The impression I got from reading the
    >licensing agreement is "no," which is a stupid move on the part of Sun, but
    >maybe I'm wrong.


    Apparently not. Sun's view is they don't want half baked JREs floating
    around screwing up other applications. They won't even let the Jet
    people distribute a natively compiled JRE.

    I can see five ways around the problem:

    1. flooding the Universe with CDs containing the JRE.

    2. Getting MS and other OS makers to bundle the JRE and keep it up to
    date automatically with auto updates.

    3. invent an efficient way to update the JRE without having to send
    every byte all over. what you really want to send is the delta of the
    obfuscated source, or something logically equivalent.
    This of the program as a parse tree. Send the changes to the tree, not
    the changes to the class files considered as a text file.
    see http://mindprod.com/projects/deltacreator.html
    http://mindprod.com/projects/bulkfiledistributor.html

    4. Sun get aggressive about keeping its JREs up to date. They
    automatically update themselves in the dead of night unless
    bludgeoned.

    5. A standard installer that sniffs around for a JRE. If it can't find
    one it downloads one from Sun and installs it. This way you need not
    bundle a JRE with your program, unless you are distributing on CD.
    It is nuts for every app to independently solve this general problem
    or try to get novice users to handle it manually. The last time I
    looked, even the professional installer InstallAnywhere was not bright
    enough to do that. You had to decide to either include or exclude the
    JRE. If you included it, it got installed even if there was a more
    recent one already installed.
     
    Roedy Green, Aug 17, 2005
    #2
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  3. Steve Sobol

    Steve Sobol Guest


    > Apparently not. Sun's view is they don't want half baked JREs floating
    > around screwing up other applications. They won't even let the Jet
    > people distribute a natively compiled JRE.


    Well, if they're going to be morons about it, I can get a good price on
    Visual Studio .NET. The app I want to do is a Windows-only app.

    > 5. A standard installer that sniffs around for a JRE. If it can't find
    > one it downloads one from Sun and installs it.


    58 megs is way too much to download, IMHO.

    Perhaps I should bundle one of the other JVMs?

    I mean, seriously... 58MB *on top of the download for my app* is sheer idiocy.

    Sun tends to have their heads up their asses about certain things. This is
    definitely one of them.


    --
    Steve Sobol, Professional Geek 888-480-4638 PGP: 0xE3AE35ED
    Company website: http://JustThe.net/
    Personal blog, resume, portfolio: http://SteveSobol.com/
    E: Snail: 22674 Motnocab Road, Apple Valley, CA 92307
     
    Steve Sobol, Aug 17, 2005
    #3
  4. Steve Sobol

    Steve Sobol Guest

    Roedy Green wrote:

    > Apparently not. Sun's view is they don't want half baked JREs floating
    > around screwing up other applications. They won't even let the Jet
    > people distribute a natively compiled JRE.


    Hm. Maybe I'm overstating the problem. The 1.5 JVM *is* only 15MB when
    downloaded off Sun's web site.

    OK, never mind.

    --
    Steve Sobol, Professional Geek 888-480-4638 PGP: 0xE3AE35ED
    Company website: http://JustThe.net/
    Personal blog, resume, portfolio: http://SteveSobol.com/
    E: Snail: 22674 Motnocab Road, Apple Valley, CA 92307
     
    Steve Sobol, Aug 17, 2005
    #4
  5. Steve Sobol

    Guest

    I agree
     
    , Aug 17, 2005
    #5
  6. Roedy Green wrote:
    >
    > 4. Sun get aggressive about keeping its JREs up to date. They
    > automatically update themselves in the dead of night unless
    > bludgeoned.


    Apparently the Windows on-line installation does update itself with
    deltas. Doubt it does it at the dead night though.

    And also apparently, the Windows on-line install download downloads less
    than eight megs, unless you need extras, such as non-American support.

    Tom Hawtin
    --
    Unemployed English Java programmer
    http://jroller.com/page/tackline/
     
    Thomas Hawtin, Aug 17, 2005
    #6
  7. Steve Sobol

    Guest

    Roedy Green wrote:
    > On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 21:04:03 -0700, Steve Sobol <>
    > wrote or quoted :
    >
    > >Is there any way (from a legal/licensing standpoint as well as a technical
    > >standpoint) to strip the RE down? The impression I got from reading the
    > >licensing agreement is "no," which is a stupid move on the part of Sun, but
    > >maybe I'm wrong.

    >
    > Apparently not. Sun's view is they don't want half baked JREs floating
    > around screwing up other applications. They won't even let the Jet
    > people distribute a natively compiled JRE.


    This is not perfectly correct. AFAIK, the next version of Excelsior JET
    will include a fully licensed, natively compiled JRE and your natively
    compiled Swing apps will no longer need a Sun JRE so run.

    Subsetting that precompiled JRE will not be possible, though. What I
    think Excelsior could do is provide you with an option to distribute
    the Java API classes that you think are not required or seldom required
    by your app in pack200 format, and unpack them on demand.

    LDV
     
    , Aug 17, 2005
    #7
  8. Steve Sobol wrote:
    > Is there any way (from a legal/licensing standpoint as well as a
    > technical standpoint) to strip the RE down? The impression I got from
    > reading the licensing agreement is "no," which is a stupid move on the
    > part of Sun, but maybe I'm wrong.


    The file jre/README contains a list of the files which Sun requires in a
    re-distribution, and also a (small) list of files which you are allowed
    to omit.

    /Thomas


    --
    The comp.lang.java.gui FAQ:
    ftp://ftp.cs.uu.nl/pub/NEWS.ANSWERS/computer-lang/java/gui/faq
    http://www.uni-giessen.de/faq/archiv/computer-lang.java.gui.faq/
     
    Thomas Weidenfeller, Aug 17, 2005
    #8
  9. Steve Sobol

    Roedy Green Guest

    On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 22:46:41 -0700, Steve Sobol <>
    wrote or quoted :

    >
    >Hm. Maybe I'm overstating the problem. The 1.5 JVM *is* only 15MB when
    >downloaded off Sun's web site.


    I think Sun hopes Java will come to be considered like the OS. It may
    be fat, but at least it is shared by all apps and you only need to get
    it once.
     
    Roedy Green, Aug 18, 2005
    #9
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