C running strong

Discussion in 'C Programming' started by jacob navia, Dec 4, 2006.

  1. jacob navia

    jacob navia Guest

    Programming languages come and go. Still is amazing that in this survey
    from
    http://www.devsource.com/article2/0,1895,2016936,00.asp
    the C language comes second, right after Java.

    Java
    # What it is: An object-oriented programming language developed by James
    Gosling and colleagues at Sun Microsystems in the early 1990s.
    # Job availabilities: 14,408

    C
    # What it is: A standardized, general-purpose programming language, it's
    one of the most pervasive languages and the basis for several others
    (such as C++).
    # Job availabilities: 6,164, including all derivatives

    C#
    # What it is: A general-purpose, compiled, object-oriented programming
    language developed by Microsoft as part of its .NET initiative, it
    evolved from C and C++
    # Job availabilities: 5,111

    Perl
    # What it is: Perl is an open-source, cross-platform, server-side
    interpretive programming language used extensively to process text
    through CGI programs.
    # Job availabilities: 4,810

    JavaScript
    # What it is: Not to be confused with Java, JavaScript is a an
    object-oriented, scripting programming language that runs in the Web
    browser on the client side. It's smaller than Java, with a simplified
    set of commands, easier to code and doesn't have to be compiled.
    # Job availabilities: 4,406

    VB.Net (Visual Basic .Net)
    # What it is: An object-oriented language implemented on Microsoft's
    ..Net framework.
    # Job availabilities: 2,090

    PHP
    # What it is: An open-source, interpretive, server-side, cross-platform,
    HTML scripting language, especially well-suited for Web development as
    it can be embedded into HTML pages.
    # Job availabilities: 1,152*

    AJAX (Asynchronous JavaScript and XML)
    # What it is: Though technically not a programming language, AJAX uses
    XHTML or HTML, JavaScript and XML to create interactive Web applications.
    # Job availabilities : 1,106

    Ruby and Ruby on Rails
    # What they are: Ruby is a dynamic, object-oriented, open-source
    programming language; Ruby on Rails is an open-source Web application
    framework written in Ruby that closely follows the MVC
    (Model-View-Controller) architecture.
    # Job availabilities : 210 and 54, respectively

    Python
    # What it is: An interpreted, dynamically object-oriented, open-source
    programming language that utilizes automatic memory management.
    # Job availabilities: 811

    * All numbers on job availability were pulled from nationwide queries on
    Dice.com, a job site for technology professionals.
    jacob navia, Dec 4, 2006
    #1
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  2. jacob navia wrote:
    > Programming languages come and go. Still is amazing that in this survey
    > from
    > http://www.devsource.com/article2/0,1895,2016936,00.asp
    > the C language comes second, right after Java.
    >
    > <Quoting a large part of an article follows>


    I hope this isn't copyright violation. If it is could
    the server owners get into trouble ?

    > * All numbers on job availability were pulled from nationwide queries on
    > Dice.com, a job site for technology professionals.


    I'm glad to see that C does well but I don't know what
    Dice.com is or how representative of the market it is
    so the numbers that come from it are of limited value
    to me.
    Spiros Bousbouras, Dec 4, 2006
    #2
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  3. jacob navia

    Simon Biber Guest

    jacob navia wrote:
    > Programming languages come and go. Still is amazing that in this survey
    > from
    > http://www.devsource.com/article2/0,1895,2016936,00.asp
    > the C language comes second, right after Java.
    >
    > Java
    > # What it is: An object-oriented programming language developed by James
    > Gosling and colleagues at Sun Microsystems in the early 1990s.
    > # Job availabilities: 14,408
    >
    > C
    > # What it is: A standardized, general-purpose programming language, it's
    > one of the most pervasive languages and the basis for several others
    > (such as C++).
    > # Job availabilities: 6,164, including all derivatives

    [snip]

    Note the caveat "including all derivatives". I don't see C++ elsewhere
    on the list. I bet C++ and C are lumped into this one entry. That's why
    it's so high on the list.

    And it's still beaten out by Java, which has more than double the number
    of job availabilities. :(

    --
    Simon.
    Simon Biber, Dec 5, 2006
    #3
  4. >>>>> "SB" == Simon Biber <> writes:

    SB> And it's still beaten out by Java, which has more than double
    SB> the number of job availabilities. :(

    That's because of the way Java is commonly used: while a
    knowledgedable Java programmer is easily as productive as a
    knowledgeable C programmer, Java also lends itself to having dozens of
    code monkeys working on a problem in a way that C does not. Beyond
    that, universities and trade schools are turning out thousands of
    people who think they know Java, and know it well enough to get past a
    cursory technical interview.

    So there are twice as many Java job openings being advertised; but
    that is because the companies are hoping that one out of two
    programmers they hire is actually competent.

    I also wouldn't put too much trust in dice.com's numbers; in the area
    I live in, I'd say that fewer than half of the *advertised* jobs make
    it to dice.com. Comparing that to the number of *actual* jobs is left
    as an exercise for the reader.

    Charlton


    --
    Charlton Wilbur
    Charlton Wilbur, Dec 5, 2006
    #4
  5. "jacob navia" <> wrote in message
    news:4574a447$0$25949$...
    > Programming languages come and go. Still is amazing that in this survey
    > from
    > http://www.devsource.com/article2/0,1895,2016936,00.asp
    > the C language comes second, right after Java.


    What's that saying, "Unix: the operating system of the future, as it has
    been since 1972". The same statement may go for 'C'.

    Gosh, I don't see any market for Pascal programmers! ... All that time
    wasted in computer science classes.
    David T. Ashley, Dec 6, 2006
    #5
  6. David T. Ashley wrote:

    > Gosh, I don't see any market for Pascal programmers! ... All that time
    > wasted in computer science classes.


    I know of quite a few commercial projects that were developed in Delphi,
    so I imagine there is some. Maybe more than Haskell, Smalltalk, Icon,
    ML, and Prolog put together, speaking of time wasted in CS classes.
    james of tucson, Dec 6, 2006
    #6
  7. David T. Ashley said:

    > "jacob navia" <> wrote in message
    > news:4574a447$0$25949$...
    >> Programming languages come and go. Still is amazing that in this survey
    >> from
    >> http://www.devsource.com/article2/0,1895,2016936,00.asp
    >> the C language comes second, right after Java.

    >
    > What's that saying, "Unix: the operating system of the future, as it has
    > been since 1972". The same statement may go for 'C'.
    >
    > Gosh, I don't see any market for Pascal programmers! ... All that time
    > wasted in computer science classes.


    Gosh, I don't see any market for people who can make salt and water out of
    half a pint of hydrochloric acid and half a pint of sodium hydroxide. All
    that time wasted in chemistry classes.

    The tools you use for learning may not be the same as the tools you use for
    earning a living, but that doesn't mean the time spent learning was wasted.

    Pascal is a superb teaching language. That it is not widely used in industry
    does not change this fact.

    --
    Richard Heathfield
    "Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29/7/1999
    http://www.cpax.org.uk
    email: rjh at the above domain, - www.
    Richard Heathfield, Dec 6, 2006
    #7
  8. Richard Heathfield <> writes:

    > David T. Ashley said:
    >
    >> "jacob navia" <> wrote in message
    >> news:4574a447$0$25949$...
    >>> Programming languages come and go. Still is amazing that in this survey
    >>> from
    >>> http://www.devsource.com/article2/0,1895,2016936,00.asp
    >>> the C language comes second, right after Java.

    >>
    >> What's that saying, "Unix: the operating system of the future, as it has
    >> been since 1972". The same statement may go for 'C'.
    >>
    >> Gosh, I don't see any market for Pascal programmers! ... All that time
    >> wasted in computer science classes.

    >
    > Gosh, I don't see any market for people who can make salt and water out of
    > half a pint of hydrochloric acid and half a pint of sodium hydroxide. All
    > that time wasted in chemistry classes.
    >
    > The tools you use for learning may not be the same as the tools you use for
    > earning a living, but that doesn't mean the time spent learning was wasted.
    >
    > Pascal is a superb teaching language. That it is not widely used in industry
    > does not change this fact.


    Since so many regulars are posting OT about Pascal these days, I beg
    leave to join in...

    I have used Pascal to teach programming and it is not up to the task.
    Lots of little details that could have been finessed in a teaching
    language were not (the IO system comes to mind) but the two biggest
    problems are:

    (1) No module system so you can't provide a package to learn with.
    Even a quasi module system like #include "graphics.h" allows students
    to start writing interesting program from day one.

    (2) The only abstraction you can teach is procedures, and even these
    are seriously crippled.

    It was an interesting design at the time but I cannot see how it can
    be described as good for teaching now and "superb" seems, to me, an
    extraordinary description of it.

    --
    Ben.
    Ben Bacarisse, Dec 6, 2006
    #8
  9. jacob navia

    CBFalconer Guest

    Ben Bacarisse wrote:
    > Richard Heathfield <> writes:
    >

    .... snip ...
    >>
    >> Pascal is a superb teaching language. That it is not widely used
    >> in industry does not change this fact.

    >
    > Since so many regulars are posting OT about Pascal these days, I
    > beg leave to join in...
    >
    > I have used Pascal to teach programming and it is not up to the
    > task. Lots of little details that could have been finessed in a
    > teaching language were not (the IO system comes to mind) but the
    > two biggest problems are:


    That's because you don't understand it. The file system is very
    flexible, and can handle almost anything if you write a suitable
    driver (in something other than Pascal). Don't forget that the
    file can be a "FILE OF <RECORD>", and that the f^ will be an
    instance of that record. Of course if you use crippled non-Pascal
    systems, such as Turbo, you never get to see or use these
    abilities.

    What Pascal lacks is the ability to express some of those drivers.
    This is a good thing, as it tends to keep the fumblisher fingeren
    out of der spitzensparken. We have both C and assembly to handle
    this.

    The other major criticism has been the lack of separate compilation
    in ISO7185. ISO10206 (Extended Pascal) handles this more than
    adequately and is downward compatible. ISO10206 has been available
    since 1986, 1984 for drafts.

    --
    Chuck F (cbfalconer at maineline dot net)
    Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems.
    <http://cbfalconer.home.att.net>
    CBFalconer, Dec 6, 2006
    #9
  10. >>>>> "BB" == Ben Bacarisse <> writes:

    BB> (1) No module system so you can't provide a package to learn
    BB> with. Even a quasi module system like #include "graphics.h"
    BB> allows students to start writing interesting program from day
    BB> one.

    One of the design goals of Pascal was that a Pascal file could be
    compiled on its own in one pass. Allowing packages breaks this. This
    is because Pascal is *also* useful in teaching compiler construction.

    Many of the commercially available Pascals for microcomputers (I
    remember in particular Turbo Pascal for MS-DOS and Think Pascal and
    MPW for Macintoshes) included an extension to work around this.

    Charlton


    --
    Charlton Wilbur
    Charlton Wilbur, Dec 6, 2006
    #10
  11. jacob navia

    santosh Guest

    [OT for c.l.c] Pascal (Was: C running strong)

    CBFalconer wrote:
    > Ben Bacarisse wrote:
    > > Richard Heathfield <> writes:
    > >

    > ... snip ...
    > >>
    > >> Pascal is a superb teaching language. That it is not widely used
    > >> in industry does not change this fact.

    > >
    > > Since so many regulars are posting OT about Pascal these days, I
    > > beg leave to join in...
    > >
    > > I have used Pascal to teach programming and it is not up to the
    > > task. Lots of little details that could have been finessed in a
    > > teaching language were not (the IO system comes to mind) but the
    > > two biggest problems are:

    >
    > That's because you don't understand it. The file system is very
    > flexible, and can handle almost anything if you write a suitable
    > driver (in something other than Pascal).


    Does Pascal require a file system or does it use the host system's?

    <snip>
    > Of course if you use crippled non-Pascal systems, such as Turbo,
    > you never get to see or use these abilities.

    <snip>
    > The other major criticism has been the lack of separate compilation
    > in ISO7185. ISO10206 (Extended Pascal) handles this more than
    > adequately and is downward compatible. ISO10206 has been available
    > since 1986, 1984 for drafts.


    Is there a fully conforming Pascal compiler for the ISO10206 standard?
    santosh, Dec 6, 2006
    #11
  12. james of tucson wrote:
    > David T. Ashley wrote:
    >
    > > Gosh, I don't see any market for Pascal programmers! ... All that time
    > > wasted in computer science classes.

    >
    > I know of quite a few commercial projects that were developed in Delphi,
    > so I imagine there is some.


    Isn't Dephi a separate language derived from Pascal ?
    Spiros Bousbouras, Dec 6, 2006
    #12
  13. CBFalconer <> writes:

    > Ben Bacarisse wrote:
    >> Richard Heathfield <> writes:
    >>

    > ... snip ...
    >>>
    >>> Pascal is a superb teaching language. That it is not widely used
    >>> in industry does not change this fact.

    >>
    >> Since so many regulars are posting OT about Pascal these days, I
    >> beg leave to join in...
    >>
    >> I have used Pascal to teach programming and it is not up to the
    >> task. Lots of little details that could have been finessed in a
    >> teaching language were not (the IO system comes to mind) but the
    >> two biggest problems are:

    >
    > That's because you don't understand it.


    If you say so.

    > The file system is very
    > flexible, and can handle almost anything if you write a suitable
    > driver (in something other than Pascal).


    What an extraordinary idea. I am not alone in this view of Pascal's
    IO system, and if you think it is simply my ignorance and/or the fact
    that I did not write a suitable driver, I won't try to persuade
    otherwise. Brian Kernighan has written an excellent critique of
    Pascal which explains, far better than I can, some of the "little
    details" I was referring to.

    > Don't forget that the
    > file can be a "FILE OF <RECORD>", and that the f^ will be an
    > instance of that record.


    How could I forget such a thing?

    > Of course if you use crippled non-Pascal
    > systems, such as Turbo, you never get to see or use these
    > abilities.


    That would be daft.

    <snip>
    > The other major criticism has been the lack of separate compilation
    > in ISO7185. ISO10206 (Extended Pascal) handles this more than
    > adequately and is downward compatible. ISO10206 has been available
    > since 1986, 1984 for drafts.


    There are lots of extensions that address this problem. I can see a
    huge OT thread growing if we start to get into what "Pascal" is, but I
    take it to mean ISO 7185. You are free to take it to mean Extended
    Pascal. I would have posted a different response if Extended Pascal
    had been claimed to be a superb teaching language.

    --
    Ben.
    Ben Bacarisse, Dec 6, 2006
    #13
  14. jacob navia

    CBFalconer Guest

    Spiros Bousbouras wrote:
    > james of tucson wrote:
    >> David T. Ashley wrote:
    >>
    >>> Gosh, I don't see any market for Pascal programmers! ... All
    >>> that time wasted in computer science classes.

    >>
    >> I know of quite a few commercial projects that were developed in
    >> Delphi, so I imagine there is some.

    >
    > Isn't Dephi a separate language derived from Pascal ?


    It certainly isn't Pascal. It omits far too much of the
    essentials. I don't know if the worst of those omissions can still
    be fixed with my txtfiles unit for Turbo. See:

    <http://cbfalconer.home.att.net/download/>

    --
    Chuck F (cbfalconer at maineline dot net)
    Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems.
    <http://cbfalconer.home.att.net>
    CBFalconer, Dec 7, 2006
    #14
  15. jacob navia

    CBFalconer Guest

    Re: [OT} C running strong

    Ben Bacarisse wrote:
    >

    .... snip ...
    >
    > What an extraordinary idea. I am not alone in this view of Pascal's
    > IO system, and if you think it is simply my ignorance and/or the fact
    > that I did not write a suitable driver, I won't try to persuade
    > otherwise. Brian Kernighan has written an excellent critique of
    > Pascal which explains, far better than I can, some of the "little
    > details" I was referring to.


    While BK is highly respected in general, his critique is from the
    point of view of someone trying to replace C, and he didn't really
    understand the language either. Better than most, though. IIRC he
    also wasn't aware of lazyio.

    For interactive use the only major criticism is the fact that read
    will abort on faulty input. This was fixed in Pascalp by providing
    a set of readx[int, etc] that returned an error indicator. Those
    can be built within ISO7185 without difficulty, but cannot be
    integrated into the pseudo variadic read function without diddling
    the compiler and making it non-compliant.

    --
    Chuck F (cbfalconer at maineline dot net)
    Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems.
    <http://cbfalconer.home.att.net>
    CBFalconer, Dec 7, 2006
    #15
  16. jacob navia

    Richard Bos Guest

    Ben Bacarisse <> wrote:

    > CBFalconer <> writes:
    >
    > > The other major criticism has been the lack of separate compilation
    > > in ISO7185. ISO10206 (Extended Pascal) handles this more than
    > > adequately and is downward compatible. ISO10206 has been available
    > > since 1986, 1984 for drafts.

    >
    > There are lots of extensions that address this problem. I can see a
    > huge OT thread growing if we start to get into what "Pascal" is, but I
    > take it to mean ISO 7185. You are free to take it to mean Extended
    > Pascal. I would have posted a different response if Extended Pascal
    > had been claimed to be a superb teaching language.


    So would I: I would have said that it has many of the same problems C
    has for teaching (and few of its advantages for actual use).

    Richard
    Richard Bos, Dec 7, 2006
    #16
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