Career Decision

Discussion in 'Java' started by Shenked, Mar 20, 2005.

  1. Shenked

    Shenked Guest

    I am interested in beginning a career in this field. Does anyone have
    some helpful hints or suggestions for a junior programmer?
    Shenked, Mar 20, 2005
    #1
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  2. Shenked

    Wiseguy Guest

    "Shenked" <> scribbled on the stall wall:
    > I am interested in beginning a career in this field. Does anyone have
    > some helpful hints or suggestions for a junior programmer?


    Dont...Unless you live in India and will work for $0.50US/hr.
    The market is flooded, the quality of code is at an all time low, and
    noone is interested in quality anymore, just cost...


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    Wiseguy, Mar 20, 2005
    #2
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  3. Shenked

    Lisa Guest

    "Shenked" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > I am interested in beginning a career in this field. Does anyone have
    > some helpful hints or suggestions for a junior programmer?



    Ah.... "THIS" so you are a dynamic sort of guy..., not static I mean.
    Lisa, Mar 20, 2005
    #3
  4. Shenked

    Oscar kind Guest

    Shenked <> wrote:
    > I am interested in beginning a career in this field. Does anyone have
    > some helpful hints or suggestions for a junior programmer?


    That depends on your location. I happen to know a little bit about the job
    market for this field in The Netherlands: for starting junior programmers
    it's reasonably tough (although it's better than a year ago). So the
    following notes are probably biased to that market.

    First, nobody wants just any programmer. They want a programmer that
    understands their customers. This means that besides programming skills,
    you'll need knowledge of stock markets, government procedures, or whatever
    knowledge they use.

    Second, make sure what you do is needed where you are (or want to be).
    You've probably heard about the outsourcing hype in the USA, and I thik
    it's spreading. So find something that is difficult to do across
    language/culture barriers: customization. Combined with rapid development,
    this is a powerfull tool.

    And if you're starting, it's still tough: many employers ask for a minimum
    of three years of job experience in IT. Combine that with the often
    difficult deadlines, and ask yourself this question: is this a hobby you'd
    do daily? If not: don't bother getting paid for it, as it'll drain you. If
    it is: dedication is rewarded, inaction is not.


    --
    Oscar Kind http://home.hccnet.nl/okind/
    Software Developer for contact information, see website

    PGP Key fingerprint: 91F3 6C72 F465 5E98 C246 61D9 2C32 8E24 097B B4E2
    Oscar kind, Mar 20, 2005
    #4
  5. Shenked

    David Segall Guest

    "Shenked" <> wrote:

    >I am interested in beginning a career in this field. Does anyone have
    >some helpful hints or suggestions for a junior programmer?

    Ever since I started programming 40 years ago my advice when asked
    this question has been the same. Get a recognised qualification in a
    field that interests you. Then add a one year post-graduate
    programming qualification. There is not really enough content in
    Information Technology or Computer Science courses to justify spending
    three years on them. Furthermore, you will not have the respect of
    your Accounting, Engineering, Librarian, Scientific or Legal
    colleagues unless your qualifications match theirs.

    But wait, there's more! If computers learn to write all the programs
    that are needed you can still sell yourself as a practitioner in your
    chosen field.

    Of course, you might be as lucky as I have been and make a good living
    from programming without any qualifications at all. Unless you already
    have written some successful programs I would not risk this.
    David Segall, Mar 20, 2005
    #5
  6. Shenked

    Wiseguy Guest

    David Segall <> scribbled on the stall wall:
    > "Shenked" <> wrote:
    >
    >>I am interested in beginning a career in this field. Does anyone have
    >>some helpful hints or suggestions for a junior programmer?

    > Ever since I started programming 40 years ago my advice when asked
    > this question has been the same. Get a recognised qualification in a
    > field that interests you. Then add a one year post-graduate
    > programming qualification. There is not really enough content in
    > Information Technology or Computer Science courses to justify spending
    > three years on them.


    there is if it is a real math/engineering based comp sci program...the
    problem is too many tech schools that think you teach a kid java or c++
    and they are ready to write code. the majority of coders these days seem
    to know nothing about advanced structures, proof of concept, or system
    integration issues...because they were taught that all that is important is
    knowing how to program in some languages and how to set up a relational db.


    > Furthermore, you will not have the respect of
    > your Accounting, Engineering, Librarian, Scientific or Legal
    > colleagues unless your qualifications match theirs.


    Unfortunately far too true. I know more about geo-physics/cartography/remote-
    sensing than most of my peers but I don't have a degree in that so I'm not
    taken seriously except by a key few who know me.


    > But wait, there's more! If computers learn to write all the programs
    > that are needed you can still sell yourself as a practitioner in your
    > chosen field.


    Assuming that your chosen field isn't bastardized into a minimum wage
    profession.

    > Of course, you might be as lucky as I have been and make a good living
    > from programming without any qualifications at all. Unless you already
    > have written some successful programs I would not risk this.


    Good advise...better advise is NOT to get into comp sci at all...


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    Wiseguy, Mar 20, 2005
    #6
  7. Shenked

    Bob Guest

    Wiseguy wrote:

    > Unfortunately far too true. I know more about geo-physics/cartography/remote-
    > sensing than most of my peers but I don't have a degree in that so I'm not
    > taken seriously except by a key few who know me.


    I don't think a degree implies much about knowledege at all. I think it
    implies more about how hard someone is willing to work, and I think
    employers know that.

    A first class degree says to me that someone is able to revise for
    weeks, has a short-term memory like a RAM bank, can go without sleep to
    meet project deadlines, will forego personal time and weekends, and will
    give their all to the end result. I don't think it necessarily means
    that they are inherently talented in the field of their degree, but when
    employers sniff someone that is prepared to work their ass off, they get
    excited.

    I have a lower-second class degree, which says to employers: works to
    his own time, does not like deadlines, will not forego personal time for
    commercial projects, and does not like being given orders. So after
    spending five years at university, I'm basically not wanted as far as
    graduate positions go, and haven't got the commercial experience to get
    into even jobs that describe themselves as "junior", whether or not I
    could master the role in the space of a month.

    So if you do know what you're talking about in those fields, tell your
    colleagues they can stick their degree where it's real dark. They'll be
    good at following orders.
    --
    Bob
    Bob, Mar 27, 2005
    #7
  8. In article <>,
    Bob <-sig.con> wrote:

    > Wiseguy wrote:
    >
    > > Unfortunately far too true. I know more about
    > > geo-physics/cartography/remote-
    > > sensing than most of my peers but I don't have a degree in that so I'm not
    > > taken seriously except by a key few who know me.

    >
    > I don't think a degree implies much about knowledege at all. I think it
    > implies more about how hard someone is willing to work, and I think
    > employers know that.


    I tend to ignore someone's degree, as a rule, unless it is germane to
    the job. We do biotech work, more than not, so some bio classes are a
    plus. Bio 101 is not going to let you talk to the research scientists
    as an equal in their field, but it means that you do know the basics.

    Having a degree can show some ability to get to a goal, and some ability
    to pass classes. How much of that depends on you, and and on the school.

    I try to get to that underlying information by asking about hard
    problems, projects that nearly failed, and projects that did fail. How
    you answer says a lot about how you see work, projects, coding, and
    other people. It is kinda fluffy, I admit, but it gives us something to
    discuss during the interview while we try to answer the real questions -
    will you fit in, will you contribute, and what do you bring that I do
    not already have.

    > A first class degree says to me that someone is able to revise for
    > weeks, has a short-term memory like a RAM bank, can go without sleep to
    > meet project deadlines, will forego personal time and weekends, and will
    > give their all to the end result. I don't think it necessarily means
    > that they are inherently talented in the field of their degree, but when
    > employers sniff someone that is prepared to work their ass off, they get
    > excited.


    Depends - I find most people with PhD degrees unhirable, because they
    tend to be prima donnas. On the other hand, two of the best designers I
    have ever met have their PhD, and they produce wonderful designs,
    wonderful code, and are willing to spend a day installing windows or
    swapping hard drives if that is what it takes to get the project done.
    They have skill, humility, and self confidence. This puts them head and
    shoulders above most other people I know.

    Of course, a third person I know who meets all of the above criteria
    dropped out of a Master's program on moral grounds. He felt that the
    school was wasting a donor's money.

    > I have a lower-second class degree, which says to employers: works to
    > his own time, does not like deadlines, will not forego personal time for
    > commercial projects, and does not like being given orders.


    I suspect it is you, not your degree, that is making this statement.
    You clearly feel strongly about it, and I bet it comes out.

    This is not a bad thing, just something to be very aware of, and to
    craft your pitch around. For example, if you come across as someone who
    can build a plan that does not involve a last minute crunch, you will
    make your clients or bosses happy. They are no fonder of deadlines and
    the associated risk than you are, but many feel it is unavoidable. Show
    them a way to avoid it, and you get points.

    On time and under budget is worth a bunch, primarily because it is hard.

    Scott
    Scott Ellsworth, Mar 29, 2005
    #8
  9. Scott Ellsworth <> scribbled the following:
    > Depends - I find most people with PhD degrees unhirable, because they
    > tend to be prima donnas. On the other hand, two of the best designers I
    > have ever met have their PhD, and they produce wonderful designs,
    > wonderful code, and are willing to spend a day installing windows or
    > swapping hard drives if that is what it takes to get the project done.
    > They have skill, humility, and self confidence. This puts them head and
    > shoulders above most other people I know.


    Our company has one PhD, and while he gets along with everyone just
    fine, it's clear that he has well over a decade of experience with
    older programming languages and much less in Java. The terminology he
    uses is so different from established Java terminology that it's
    difficult to understand what he means.

    --
    /-- Joona Palaste () ------------- Finland --------\
    \-------------------------------------------------------- rules! --------/
    "A bicycle cannot stand up by itself because it's two-tyred."
    - Sky Text
    Joona I Palaste, Apr 3, 2005
    #9
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