Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

[richard]

So I wrote PyPI back a couple of years ago. It was just a simple cgi script
and some distutils code. I needed to call it *something* and "Python
Package Index" seemed like a fairly obvious name. Unfortunately, it's also
quite a mouthful. A friend suggested "PyPI" as a good shorter name. He also
indicated that it should be pronounced "Pippy" but that never really caught
on (just a little too cutesy for most people, I suppose).

Fast-forward to PyCon 2005. PyPI sprinters in the same room as PyPy
sprinters. I think you may see where this is heading. Every now and then
someone would say "Pie Pie" too loudly in the room, and *all* heads (well,
except the Chandler folk and Brett Cannon). Something needed to be done. A
new name was needed.

For the 6 months or so following PyCon 2005 I called for new name
suggestions. Some of those are in my weblog. Some are in c.l.p archives.
There was *zero* consensus, or anything even closely resembling consensus.
So I did what people always do in this situation, I asked Barry Warsaw to
name. it. And he did, "Cheese Shop". I liked the name, so it was done. When
the new pydotorg machines went live last year, so too did the name
cheeseshop.python.org

Rejoice! No more confusing conversations with PyPy developers!


Richard

 

[Sybren Stuvel]

richard enlightened us with:

Rejoice! No more confusing conversations with PyPy developers!

Thanks for sharing that. I always wondered where the name came from

Sybren

 

[A.M. Kuchling]

So I did what people always do in this situation, I asked Barry Warsaw to
name. it. And he did, "Cheese Shop". I liked the name, so it was done. When
the new pydotorg machines went live last year, so too did the name
cheeseshop.python.org

Given the endless whiny complaints about the name, though, I think we
should just give up and go back to PyPI (pronounced 'Pippy').

--amk

 

[Mike C. Fletcher]

Given the endless whiny complaints about the name, though, I think we
should just give up and go back to PyPI (pronounced 'Pippy').

I realise it's an incredibly boring name, but what about pronouncing it
as "the package index" or "the Python Package Index". Spelling it
"PyPI" if one insists on a very short name in some written context is
fine, but try not to use it when talking to a new user. That is, link
to the page as "The Package Index" from www.python.org, refer to it as
"you can find that in the package index", or "The Python Package Index
has modules for X, Y, and Z" in a non-Python context. Use pippy if
you're talking with someone deeply embedded in Python culture (maybe),
but don't expect people to know what you're talking about. Use "the
Cheese Shop" similarly.

Luckily, www.python.org already does this, so no change is really
required, it's only the server-name that says "cheeseshop", everything
else says "Package Index" (that I could find)...

Which boils down to "don't call it the cheese shop or pippy when you're
talking to new users", maybe don't even call it that when you're talking
to *anyone* who's not deeply pythonified, but feel free to think of it
as the cheese shop or pippy. The familiar names, cute as they may be,
don't really help users much. That is, make it an in-joke if you like,
but assume that users will refer to it via the obvious, simple
description of what it is and target documentation and communication
appropriately. When/if the user "gets" that the Package Index is the
Cheese Shop they can feel great having pierced that bubble, but don't
force them to pierce it to get the software they need.

Just my two cents,
Mike

--
________________________________________________
Mike C. Fletcher
Designer, VR Plumber, Coder
http://www.vrplumber.com
http://blog.vrplumber.com

 

[Tim Churches]

Given the endless whiny complaints about the name,

I was just hoping that honour would be bestowed upon me for suggesting a
brilliant alternative name, but I sense it is not to be...oh well
(whistles tune to himself).

though, I think we
should just give up and go back to PyPI (pronounced 'Pippy').

Perusable Index of Packages for PYthon -> PIPPY (or PipPy if CamelCase
is preferred, or pippy...).

PyPi is doomed to be mispronounced pie-pie.

Anyway, thanks to Richard Jones for all his work on PyPI/Cheese Shop,
whining about the name notwithstanding.

Tim C

 

[Peter Decker]

I realise it's an incredibly boring name, but what about pronouncing it
as "the package index" or "the Python Package Index". Spelling it
"PyPI" if one insists on a very short name in some written context is
fine, but try not to use it when talking to a new user. That is, link
to the page as "The Package Index" from www.python.org, refer to it as
"you can find that in the package index", or "The Python Package Index
has modules for X, Y, and Z" in a non-Python context. Use pippy if
you're talking with someone deeply embedded in Python culture (maybe),
but don't expect people to know what you're talking about. Use "the
Cheese Shop" similarly.

I think that calling it simple 'Python Package Index' is a great idea.
If you want a shortened version, call it by its initials: PPI. No need
for cutesy 'pippy' pronunciations or odd 'PyPI' capitalizations. Just
PPI.

 

[Fredrik Lundh]

Given the endless whiny complaints about the name, though, I think we
should just give up and go back to PyPI (pronounced 'Pippy').

just change the link on the main site to read "packages", change the self-
references on the cheeseshop.python.org page to "Packages" or "Package
Index", move the quote down to the bottom of the page, and and leave
the rest as is.

</F>

 

[Fredrik Lundh]

just change the link on the main site to read "packages"

and while you're at it, change "python-dev" to "developers" and
"psf" to "foundation" (or use a title on that link).

</F>

 

[Tim Parkin]

and while you're at it, change "python-dev" to "developers" and
"psf" to "foundation" (or use a title on that link).

</F>

For most people 'developers' would mean people developing *with* python,
not developing python.

Also 'Foundation' could be confused with 'beginners' or 'basic'.

Tim Parkin

 

[Fredrik Lundh]

For most people 'developers' would mean people developing *with* python,
not developing python.

the page it leads has headings that say "Python Developers Guide" and
"Links for Developers", and contains links about "Development Process",
"Developer FAQ", etc.

I'm convinced that people visiting python.org can distinguish between
"using python to develop stuff" and "developing python", but that's me.

Also 'Foundation' could be confused with 'beginners' or 'basic'.

while "PSF" is completely incomprehensible for someone who doesn't
already know what it is... why even keep it on the front page ?

(give it its own section on the community page instead. the link is
already there; all it needs is a heading and a short blurb).

</F>

 

[Tim Parkin]

Tim Parkin wrote:




the page it leads has headings that say "Python Developers Guide" and
"Links for Developers", and contains links about "Development Process",
"Developer FAQ", etc.

I think telling people they are in the wrong place isn't quite as good
as helping them get to the right place.

I'm convinced that people visiting python.org can distinguish between
"using python to develop stuff" and "developing python", but that's me.

Simple user questions (i.e. asking people what they think a 'developers'
link would lead to on a programming site) suggests that the majority of
people think differently to you.

while "PSF" is completely incomprehensible for someone who doesn't
already know what it is... why even keep it on the front page ?

Usability says that people choose the first appropriate link to click
on. They will only click on psf if they already know what it is. If it
was called *foundation* and they were a beginner then they may well
click on 'foundation'. If they wanted to know about the support and
community behind python, that material should be obviously placed under
'community' and the information should also be under 'about'.

Navigation usability isn't about trying to make every link mean
something to every user, it's about making sure that for each use case,
a clear path to the information is available. The difference is subtle
but important.

Calling the link *foundation* goes halfway to solving the problem in the
wrong place.

(give it its own section on the community page instead. the link is
already there; all it needs is a heading and a short blurb).

It was in the community section but most people wanted it back on the
top level.

Tim Parkin

 

[Fredrik Lundh]

Simple user questions (i.e. asking people what they think a 'developers'
link would lead to on a programming site) suggests that the majority of
people think differently to you.

so where's this mythical user group that you're using for the site testing ?

</F>

 

[Tim Parkin]

Tim Parkin wrote:




so where's this mythical user group that you're using for the site testing ?

</F>

freinds and colleagues both online and off.. Some of whom are python
programmers, most not. Without a budget for 'comprehensive testing' then
the next best thing is asking people, at least you'll generally get rid
of the big bloopers.. it's typically referred to as guerilla testing and
whilst not scientific, it's better than nothing at all.

Tim Parkin

 

[Peter Decker]

freinds and colleagues both online and off.. Some of whom are python
programmers, most not. Without a budget for 'comprehensive testing' then
the next best thing is asking people, at least you'll generally get rid
of the big bloopers.. it's typically referred to as guerilla testing and
whilst not scientific, it's better than nothing at all.

I consider myself a Python developer, and if I saw a 'Developers' link
on a Python site, it would seem obvious that it would be something
that might interest me. It would not occur to me that this referred to
people who are developing the language itself.

 

[Aahz]

the page it leads has headings that say "Python Developers Guide" and
"Links for Developers", and contains links about "Development Process",
"Developer FAQ", etc.

I'm convinced that people visiting python.org can distinguish between
"using python to develop stuff" and "developing python", but that's me.

Given the number of people who post off-topic to python-dev, I don't
agree with you.

 

[Fredrik Lundh]

I consider myself a Python developer, and if I saw a 'Developers' link
on a Python site, it would seem obvious that it would be something
that might interest me.

even when it appeared below News, Documentation, Download,
Community, and Links buttons on a site dedicated to the Python
programming language ?

who would you, intuitively, think that the other buttons were tar-
geted for ?

(and why wouldn't the development process behind Python be
of interest to you, btw? don't tell me that you've never dis-
covered a bug in Python or its documentation... ;-)

</F>

 

[Fredrik Lundh]

Given the number of people who post off-topic to python-dev, I don't
agree with you.

have you ever asked them where they found the mail address?

</F>

 

[Fredrik Lundh]

I think telling people they are in the wrong place isn't quite as good
as helping them get to the right place.

you read that backwards, by the way: the site uses "Development" and
"Developers" in lots of places to refer to "Development of Python". it very
seldom uses these words to refer to "Using Python to Develop Other Stuff".

I surely hope you're not optimizing the site only for people who don't in-
tend to leave the front page...

</F>

 

[Paul Boddie]

Re-adding the missing disambiguating text:

"It would not occur to me that this referred to people who are
developing the language itself."

even when it appeared below News, Documentation, Download,
Community, and Links buttons on a site dedicated to the Python
programming language ?

who would you, intuitively, think that the other buttons were tar-
geted for ?

Both people who develop with Python and people who develop Python
itself.

(and why wouldn't the development process behind Python be
of interest to you, btw? don't tell me that you've never dis-
covered a bug in Python or its documentation... ;-)

True. But take a look at these two examples for the confusion we're
seeing here:

http://www.postgresql.org/
http://www.trolltech.com/

The first site has a "Developers" link which tells you after you've
visited the linked page that they meant "developers of PostgreSQL" by
the term; the second site has a "Developer" link which provides
resources for people using the company's products to write solutions.

It's clear that people use the term "Python developer" similarly to
"Oracle developer", where you don't get many people in the wild
actually developing Oracle products themselves, and so the term has an
established meaning of someone developing with that technology. Thus,
many people, especially those accustomed to using more corporate
technologies like Oracle or Java would see "Developers" or "Developer"
links and think of stuff they can develop with, rather than finished
applications or solutions, for example; it certainly wouldn't occur to
them that the links would point to some internal Oracle portal strictly
for Oracle development staff, some Sun portal for Java development
staff, or tools for working on the Python implementation.

Paul

 

[Peter Decker]

even when it appeared below News, Documentation, Download,
Community, and Links buttons on a site dedicated to the Python
programming language ?

who would you, intuitively, think that the other buttons were tar-
geted for ?

I would expect 'Documentation' would lead to docs about *using*
Python, not about the nuts and bolts that go into enabling Python to
do its magic. Similarly, I would expect 'News' to be news that would
be relevant to the users of the language, 'Community' to be about the
community of people who use Python, etc.

The number of people who could potentially be Python developers is
immense compared to the number who will ever look at the source code
behind it, much less tinker with it.

(and why wouldn't the development process behind Python be
of interest to you, btw?

Probably because I have other work to do, and I use Python as the tool
to get that work done. If I were a baker, I would be preoccupied with
keeping my bakery in business; I wouldn't be spending much time
studying flour mills or wheat farming, even though those endeavors
make my bakery possible.

don't tell me that you've never dis-
covered a bug in Python or its documentation... ;-)

Can't say I've ever run into anything that hadn't already been
reported. But even if I did, my C skills are nowhere near good enough
to be able to delve into the source code and correct it. That doesn't
make me any less of a Python developer, though.