cleaning up Frontpage code

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Jésus Bleu, Jan 16, 2010.

  1. Jésus Bleu

    Jésus Bleu Guest

    hello,

    I have inherited a design job whose previous designer used Frontpage. I use
    Dreamweaver CS3.

    I noted on inspecting the pages that there was a lot of code which I did not
    understand, and the files seemed larger than usual in size (ie, for an
    average web-page, almost 200k.

    I applied DW's "clean up Word" tool, and the pages were reduced
    significantly in size, ie, 40k compared to 200k. Dreamweaver reported things
    like removing 160 "[if...]" statements, 90 margin defines, and on and on.
    Being not familar with Frontpage's coding system, I am not sure how
    necessary this code is. The server we have moved to is Linux-based and does
    not offer FP extensions.

    This code seems excessively redundant to me, and the "cleaned up pages"
    render decently, although will need some tweaking to float the images
    properly in the text. The odd thing is that there's still some characters
    that show up as squares in IE and diamonds with question marks in Firefox.

    Upon inspecting the code in Dreamweaver, there is nothing visible in those
    spaces except, simply, "spaces" ... ie, when you press the spacebar. I'm
    not sure why IE & FF show a display error.

    If anyone could comment, it would be appreciated.

    here are the URL's:

    old FP-coded page: http://ishdafish.ca/index_files/Ish_Bio.htm
    page "cleanup" by DW: http://ishdafish.ca/index_files/Ish_Bio_CLEAN.htm

    thanks for any comments on the "empty space" errors, or on more graceful
    conversion of FP to DW-compatible script.

    JB
    Jésus Bleu, Jan 16, 2010
    #1
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  2. Jésus Bleu

    dorayme Guest

    In article <hitb2g$10k$-september.org>,
    "Jésus Bleu" <> wrote:

    > hello,
    >
    > I have inherited a design job whose previous designer used Frontpage. I use
    > Dreamweaver CS3.
    >
    > I noted on inspecting the pages that there was a lot of code which I did not
    > understand, and the files seemed larger than usual in size (ie, for an
    > average web-page, almost 200k.
    >
    > I applied DW's "clean up Word" tool, and the pages were reduced
    > significantly in size, ie, 40k compared to 200k. Dreamweaver reported things
    > like removing 160 "[if...]" statements, 90 margin defines, and on and on.
    > Being not familar with Frontpage's coding system, I am not sure how
    > necessary this code is. The server we have moved to is Linux-based and does
    > not offer FP extensions.
    >
    > This code seems excessively redundant to me, and the "cleaned up pages"
    > render decently, although will need some tweaking to float the images
    > properly in the text. The odd thing is that there's still some characters
    > that show up as squares in IE and diamonds with question marks in Firefox.
    >
    > Upon inspecting the code in Dreamweaver, there is nothing visible in those
    > spaces except, simply, "spaces" ... ie, when you press the spacebar. I'm
    > not sure why IE & FF show a display error.
    >
    > If anyone could comment, it would be appreciated.
    >
    > here are the URL's:
    >
    > old FP-coded page: http://ishdafish.ca/index_files/Ish_Bio.htm
    > page "cleanup" by DW: http://ishdafish.ca/index_files/Ish_Bio_CLEAN.htm
    >
    > thanks for any comments on the "empty space" errors, or on more graceful
    > conversion of FP to DW-compatible script.
    >


    You can't have pictures blocking out text as in the clean conversion
    version. See with Firefox.

    There is so much wrong, from lack of doctype to character encoding
    problems that is hard to know where to begin regarding that particular
    URL.

    I hate to tell you, either start from nearly scratch in DW or better a
    plain text editor. And move over all the needed bits (pics, text etc)
    from what you see in the web page as it presents in a browser (copy
    paste stuff and drag images off...)

    --
    dorayme
    dorayme, Jan 16, 2010
    #2
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  3. Jésus Bleu

    rf Guest

    J?sus Bleu wrote:
    > hello,
    >
    > I have inherited a design job whose previous designer used Frontpage.


    Oh dear.

    > I use Dreamweaver CS3.


    Equally bad.
    rf, Jan 16, 2010
    #3
  4. Jésus Bleu

    richard Guest

    On Sat, 16 Jan 2010 13:29:49 -0800, JÛìs Bleu wrote:

    > hello,
    >
    > I have inherited a design job whose previous designer used Frontpage. I use
    > Dreamweaver CS3.
    >
    > I noted on inspecting the pages that there was a lot of code which I did not
    > understand, and the files seemed larger than usual in size (ie, for an
    > average web-page, almost 200k.
    >
    > I applied DW's "clean up Word" tool, and the pages were reduced
    > significantly in size, ie, 40k compared to 200k. Dreamweaver reported things
    > like removing 160 "[if...]" statements, 90 margin defines, and on and on.
    > Being not familar with Frontpage's coding system, I am not sure how
    > necessary this code is. The server we have moved to is Linux-based and does
    > not offer FP extensions.
    >
    > This code seems excessively redundant to me, and the "cleaned up pages"
    > render decently, although will need some tweaking to float the images
    > properly in the text. The odd thing is that there's still some characters
    > that show up as squares in IE and diamonds with question marks in Firefox.
    >
    > Upon inspecting the code in Dreamweaver, there is nothing visible in those
    > spaces except, simply, "spaces" ... ie, when you press the spacebar. I'm
    > not sure why IE & FF show a display error.
    >
    > If anyone could comment, it would be appreciated.
    >
    > here are the URL's:
    >
    > old FP-coded page: http://ishdafish.ca/index_files/Ish_Bio.htm
    > page "cleanup" by DW: http://ishdafish.ca/index_files/Ish_Bio_CLEAN.htm
    >
    > thanks for any comments on the "empty space" errors, or on more graceful
    > conversion of FP to DW-compatible script.
    >
    > JB


    Why use bloatware?
    I'd just ditch all the unneccessary xml stuff and do it in standard html.
    I have no clues what the dozens of "formulas" are for.
    richard, Jan 16, 2010
    #4
  5. JÛìs Bleu wrote:

    > old FP-coded page: http://ishdafish.ca/index_files/Ish_Bio.htm
    > page "cleanup" by DW: http://ishdafish.ca/index_files/Ish_Bio_CLEAN.htm


    Dreamweaver has failed you. I agree with dorayme .. push the current FP
    work aside and start from scratch.

    > thanks for any comments on the "empty space" errors, or on more
    > graceful conversion of FP to DW-compatible script.


    That'll be some sort of character encoding error or omission but I do
    not wish to wade through that hodge-podge of coding to solve it. :-/

    --
    -bts
    -Four wheels carry the body; two wheels move the soul
    Beauregard T. Shagnasty, Jan 16, 2010
    #5
  6. richard wrote:

    > I have no clues what the dozens of "formulas" are for.


    Use a Microsoft product to make a web page...

    --
    -bts
    -Four wheels carry the body; two wheels move the soul
    Beauregard T. Shagnasty, Jan 16, 2010
    #6
  7. Jésus Bleu

    Jésus Bleu Guest

    > Other browsers may display nothing for an error character, so you don't
    > notice, because nothing doesn't look that different from a space. Or
    > maybe when they find they've been lied to and it's not UTF-8 they try
    > guessing other encodings in ascending order of cluelessness-- i.e.
    > any encoding whose name starts with "Windows-" first.
    >
    > So, either convert the page to UTF-8 or configure the server to send the
    > correct header, whichever is easier.


    thanks to all for confirming my deeply-held beliefs that Microsoft's
    modus operandi has been pathologically crippled from Day 1, and
    that they are incapable of creating anything except useless "bloatware".

    And, especially, thanks to Ben C, for an extremely clear, intelligent,
    and well presented response. Newsgroups need many more like you.

    JB
    Jésus Bleu, Jan 17, 2010
    #7
  8. Jésus Bleu

    Andy Dingley Guest

    On 16 Jan, 21:29, "J sus Bleu" <> wrote:

    > I have inherited a design job whose previous designer used Frontpage.  I use
    > Dreamweaver CS3.


    It's not that they used FP, it's that they used FP to generate a poor
    quality structure.

    Throw this away, start again. Scrape the _content_ of the page (Lynx,
    wget, clipboard copy from within a browser, regexes over the source)
    and paste that into a whole new structure, with whole new CSS.

    What FP generates is based on M$oft's impressions of how the web ought
    to work, not how it actually works. In particular, the idea of HTML as
    a sort of round-trippable Office document, rather than a universal
    publishing format to multiple devices. You can't fix that easily, it's
    quicker to skin it again.
    Andy Dingley, Jan 17, 2010
    #8
  9. Jésus Bleu

    richard Guest

    On Sun, 17 Jan 2010 06:43:59 -0800 (PST), Andy Dingley wrote:

    > On 16 Jan, 21:29, "J sus Bleu" <> wrote:
    >
    >> I have inherited a design job whose previous designer used Frontpage.  I use
    >> Dreamweaver CS3.

    >
    > It's not that they used FP, it's that they used FP to generate a poor
    > quality structure.
    >
    > Throw this away, start again. Scrape the _content_ of the page (Lynx,
    > wget, clipboard copy from within a browser, regexes over the source)
    > and paste that into a whole new structure, with whole new CSS.
    >
    > What FP generates is based on M$oft's impressions of how the web ought
    > to work, not how it actually works. In particular, the idea of HTML as
    > a sort of round-trippable Office document, rather than a universal
    > publishing format to multiple devices. You can't fix that easily, it's
    > quicker to skin it again.


    Not to mention that MS refuses to accept perfectly good CSS and insist that
    the rest of the world uses their own creations instead.
    richard, Jan 17, 2010
    #9
  10. On Sun, 17 Jan 2010 03:50:59 -0600, Ben C <> wrote:

    >On 2010-01-16, Jésus Bleu <> wrote:
    >>
    >> hello,
    >>
    >> I have inherited a design job whose previous designer used Frontpage. I use
    >> Dreamweaver CS3.
    >>

    >[...]
    >> Upon inspecting the code in Dreamweaver, there is nothing visible in those
    >> spaces except, simply, "spaces" ... ie, when you press the spacebar. I'm
    >> not sure why IE & FF show a display error.

    >
    >Those are non-breaking space characters, which ought to look like
    >spaces but not break lines.
    >

    Better to use &nbsp; for non-breaking space character.
    More info -> http://www.htmlbasictutor.ca/non-breaking-space.htm
    Raymond Schmit, Jan 17, 2010
    #10
  11. Jésus Bleu

    GTalbot Guest

    On 16 jan, 16:29, "J sus Bleu" <> wrote:
    > hello,
    >
    > I have inherited a design job whose previous designer used Frontpage.  I use
    > Dreamweaver CS3.
    >
    > I noted on inspecting the pages that there was a lot of code which I did not
    > understand, and the files seemed larger than usual in size (ie, for an
    > average web-page, almost 200k.
    >
    > I applied DW's "clean up Word" tool, and the pages were reduced
    > significantly in size, ie, 40k compared to 200k. Dreamweaver reported things
    > like removing 160 "[if...]" statements, 90 margin defines, and on and on.
    > Being not familar with Frontpage's coding system, I am not sure how
    > necessary this code is.  The server we have moved to is Linux-based and does
    > not offer FP extensions.
    >
    > This code seems excessively redundant to me, and the "cleaned up pages"
    > render decently, although will need some tweaking to float the images
    > properly in the text.  The odd thing is that there's still some characters
    > that show up as squares in IE and diamonds with question marks in Firefox..
    >
    > Upon inspecting the code in Dreamweaver, there is nothing visible in those
    > spaces except, simply, "spaces" ... ie, when you press the spacebar.  I'm
    > not sure why IE & FF show a display error.
    >
    > If anyone could comment, it would be appreciated.
    >
    > here are the URL's:
    >
    > old FP-coded page:http://ishdafish.ca/index_files/Ish_Bio.htm
    > page "cleanup" by DW:http://ishdafish.ca/index_files/Ish_Bio_CLEAN.htm
    >
    > thanks for any comments on the "empty space" errors, or on more graceful
    > conversion of FP to DW-compatible script.
    >
    > JB




    I believe you first need to clarify the character set. iso-8859-1 I
    suggest to use a real and excellent advanced text editor and clean up
    the page.

    First, remove what's on line 1002:

    <span style='font-size:10.0pt;
    font-family:"Comic Sans MS";language:EN-CA'>�</span>

    You need to remove all of the bad � characters manually.

    Set the character encoding to iso-8859-1; choose HTML 4.01 strict DTD.
    I recommend PSPad and a lot of reading.

    PSPad 4.5.4 is excellent.

    Using HTML Tidy would be perfect in your case.

    First thing to remember: FrontPage is very bad and CS3 Dreamweaver is
    bad. Best tool is to learn and not to trust 400$ softwares, especially
    if you are a beginner. Software development web authoring tools like
    DreamWeaver do not compensate absence of knowledge, lack of
    experience.

    {
    The error was: utf8 "\xA0" does not map to Unicode
    }

    HTML validator: http://validator.w3.org/

    good luck, Gérard
    GTalbot, Jan 18, 2010
    #11
  12. Jésus Bleu

    Andy Dingley Guest

    On 18 Jan, 08:14, Ben C <> wrote:

    > You don't have to do it manually. You can just convert the whole file to
    > UTF-8 using, e.g. iconv -f windows-1252 -t utf-8.


    You can't (unless you still have access to the old source). The
    documents displayed here are neither ISO-8859-* or UTF-8, they're
    content that was one or the other once, was presented and processed as
    the other (probably ISO-8859-* to UTF-8), but have since been
    "snapshotted" in a way that converts the unmappable octet sequences
    into "unmappable character" warning characters. Information has now
    been lost, and it's impossible to get it back (except by guessing that
    many of them were apostrophes). To fix this, you have to go back to an
    untrashed version.

    As an editor that's particularly good at handling trashed encodings,
    I'd recommend jEdit.
    Andy Dingley, Jan 18, 2010
    #12
  13. Raymond Schmit wrote:

    >> Those are non-breaking space characters, which ought to look like
    >> spaces but not break lines.
    >>

    > Better to use &nbsp; for non-breaking space character.


    There is nothing wrong with using the no-break space as a character, as long
    as it is the document's declared encoding.

    --
    Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
    Jukka K. Korpela, Jan 18, 2010
    #13
  14. On Mon, 18 Jan 2010 21:19:59 +0200, "Jukka K. Korpela"
    <> wrote:

    >Raymond Schmit wrote:
    >
    >>> Those are non-breaking space characters, which ought to look like
    >>> spaces but not break lines.
    >>>

    >> Better to use &nbsp; for non-breaking space character.

    >
    >There is nothing wrong with using the no-break space as a character, as long
    >as it is the document's declared encoding.


    Correct, however using &nbsp; for non-breaking space character works
    always ok - evenwhile the document's declared encoding. is wrong or
    inexistant.
    Raymond Schmit, Jan 18, 2010
    #14
  15. Jésus Bleu

    Andy Dingley Guest

    On 18 Jan, 19:19, "Jukka K. Korpela" <> wrote:

    > There is nothing wrong with using the no-break space as a character, as long
    > as it is the document's declared encoding.


    It's dificult for humans to edit it though, unless you know of an
    editor that shows vanilla spaces and non-breaking spaces in some
    distinctive manner..

    Conversely, it's hard for fluent Russian or Czech speakers to edit a
    web page (UTF-8, so encoding isn't a problem) when the non-ASCII
    characters have been represented as numeric character entities, rather
    than bare characters.
    Andy Dingley, Jan 19, 2010
    #15
  16. Andy Dingley wrote:

    > On 18 Jan, 19:19, "Jukka K. Korpela" <> wrote:
    >
    >> There is nothing wrong with using the no-break space as a character,
    >> as long as it is the document's declared encoding.

    >
    > It's dificult for humans to edit it though,


    Yeah, I guess so. I've heard so many odd things about those humans.

    > unless you know of an
    > editor that shows vanilla spaces and non-breaking spaces in some
    > distinctive manner..


    Are there other types of editors?? Do you mean those "humans" include
    entities that do not edit in Emacs?

    Seriously, point taken, but normally you need not know, when editing,
    whether a space is a normal space or a no-break space. You just enter the
    latter as needed.

    > Conversely, it's hard for fluent Russian or Czech speakers to edit a
    > web page (UTF-8, so encoding isn't a problem) when the non-ASCII
    > characters have been represented as numeric character entities, rather
    > than bare characters.


    Well, yes, and &nbsp; isn't that nice either. Normally when you edit text,
    you would like to see the text in a natural way, instead of entity
    references.

    --
    Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
    Jukka K. Korpela, Jan 19, 2010
    #16
  17. Jésus Bleu

    John Clayton Guest

    "Beauregard T. Shagnasty" <> wrote in message
    news:hithv8$72f$-september.org...

    > -bts
    > -Four wheels carry the body; two wheels move the soul



    Apologies for sharing this with the list,
    But I wanted to say how much I liked the sig.file
    One day I might claim/ quote it as my own.
    If some clown on 4 wheels don't clump me first.
    Thank you.
    John
    John Clayton, Jan 29, 2010
    #17
  18. Jésus Bleu

    dorayme Guest

    In article <LWG8n.100784$2>,
    "John Clayton" <> wrote:

    > "Beauregard T. Shagnasty" <> wrote in message
    > news:hithv8$72f$-september.org...
    >
    > > -bts
    > > -Four wheels carry the body; two wheels move the soul

    >
    >
    > Apologies for sharing this with the list,
    > But I wanted to say how much I liked the sig.file
    > One day I might claim/ quote it as my own.
    > If some clown on 4 wheels don't clump me first.


    I assume you ride a real motor bike, not just a push bike. The
    latter does not do much for the soul up an Australian slope.

    (Heard first and then saw a bloke on a push bike with a petrol
    motor louder than a lawn mower without a muffler the other day,
    no helmet and doing over 60kmh in my local criss-crossing narrow
    streets. He was coming back and forth and seemed to be just
    testing it! Too fast for me to flag him down to ask about the
    power, I liked it!)

    --
    dorayme
    dorayme, Jan 29, 2010
    #18
  19. John Clayton wrote:

    > "Beauregard T. Shagnasty" wrote:
    >> -bts
    >> -Four wheels carry the body; two wheels move the soul

    >
    > Apologies for sharing this with the list,
    > But I wanted to say how much I liked the sig.file
    > One day I might claim/ quote it as my own.
    > If some clown on 4 wheels don't clump me first.
    > Thank you.
    > John


    Feel free to quote. I have an unlimited number of copies. <g>
    Heh, when I see a 4-wheeler getting too close, I just twist and outrun
    the bugger.

    --
    -bts
    -When you turn your motorcycle on, does it return the favor?
    Beauregard T. Shagnasty, Jan 29, 2010
    #19
  20. John Clayton wrote:
    > "Beauregard T. Shagnasty"<> wrote in message
    > news:hithv8$72f$-september.org...
    >
    >> -bts
    >> -Four wheels carry the body; two wheels move the soul

    >
    >
    > Apologies for sharing this with the list,
    > But I wanted to say how much I liked the sig.file
    > One day I might claim/ quote it as my own.
    > If some clown on 4 wheels don't clump me first.
    >


    I guess I lost too many friends. I rather carry my body in one piece
    with four wheels then release my soul from it with two.

    --
    Take care,

    Jonathan
    -------------------
    LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
    http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com
    Jonathan N. Little, Jan 30, 2010
    #20
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