Co-developers wanted: document markup language

T

Torsten Bronger

Hallöchen!

Some LaTeX users in Aachen thought about a general-use markup
language this spring. I wrote some code and a rough project
description, however, we could need some help.

If you are interested, visit the provisional project page at
http://latex-bronger.sourceforge.net/gummi/

Tschö,
Torsten.

Crosspost & Followup-To: comp.lang.python
 
A

Aahz

The provisional project page already points to
http://docutils.sourceforge.net/rst.html which is sufficient I
think.

My point is that docutils already exists; given the combined competition
from LaTeX and docutils and OpenOffice, you should probably explain what
differentiates your project and why people should support your project
instead of (or in addition to) others.
 
T

Torsten Bronger

Hallöchen!
Torsten Bronger said:
Aahz said:
Some LaTeX users in Aachen thought about a general-use markup
language this spring. I wrote some code and a rough project
description, however, we could need some help.

[...]

My point is that docutils already exists; given the combined
competition from LaTeX and docutils and OpenOffice, you should
probably explain what differentiates your project and why people
should support your project instead of (or in addition to) others.

reStructuredText, AsciiDoc, and some others focus on source code
documentation, or on software documentation. In contrast to that,
our markup should be suitable for PhD theses, papers and the like.
Thus, it has weaker means for code snippets, RFC citation etc, but
rich syntax for bibliographic entries, index entries, math, and
floating figures. Additionally, input methods simplify using
characters like δ, ⇒, or â€.

The differences to LaTeX are explained comprehensively on the
webpage, and actually LaTeX is the real competitor rather than
reStructuredText. OOo isn't a plain text format, and has no strong
semantic markup.

Tschö,
Torsten.
 
P

Paul Rubin

Torsten Bronger said:
The differences to LaTeX are explained comprehensively on the
webpage, and actually LaTeX is the real competitor rather than
reStructuredText.

TeX/LateX have been around forever and are well established standards,
as awful as they are. Why do we want ANOTHER markup language? We
need fewer, not more.
 
E

Evan Klitzke

Hallöchen!

Some LaTeX users in Aachen thought about a general-use markup
language this spring. I wrote some code and a rough project
description, however, we could need some help.

If you are interested, visit the provisional project page at
http://latex-bronger.sourceforge.net/gummi/

Tschö,
Torsten.

I briefly looked over the specification, and it looks like you're
targeting a LaTeX backend. Are you planning on outputting to LaTeX and
using that to generate e.g. PDF versions of documents, or do you plan
to have a real PDF/Postscript backend?
 
T

Torsten Bronger

Hallöchen!

Paul said:
TeX/LateX have been around forever and are well established
standards, as awful as they are. Why do we want ANOTHER markup
language?

Well, because they are awful. ;-) I don't see that there is a
bunch of already existing projects, in fact, I don't see anyone
challenging LaTeX at all. However, competition is a good thing, and
I think there are enough aspects about LaTeX that can be done better
so that this project is worth being done.

Tschö,
Torsten.
 
T

Torsten Bronger

Hallöchen!

Evan said:
I briefly looked over the specification, and it looks like you're
targeting a LaTeX backend. Are you planning on outputting to LaTeX
and using that to generate e.g. PDF versions of documents, or do
you plan to have a real PDF/Postscript backend?

Yes, I plan to use LaTeX as a mere backend slave for getting PDFs.
I will *try* to keep the LaTeX readable but mostly for debugging
purposes. I don't think that a native PDF backend is helpful on the
short run because LaTeX just works well for this (I don't like
LaTeX's usability but I do like TeX's typesetting abilities).

There is another way to get PDFs which I certainly want to give a
try sometime, namely XSL:FO.

However, I don't know how feasible direct PDF output is. I'm
somewhat scared by line breaking algorithms, hyphenation and all
this, though.

Tschö,
Torsten.
 
O

olive

Well, because they are awful. ;-) I don't see that there is a
bunch of already existing projects, in fact, I don't see anyone
challenging LaTeX at all. However, competition is a good thing, and
I think there are enough aspects about LaTeX that can be done better
so that this project is worth being done.

What about ODF ? (http://www.odfalliance.org/)
Isn't it a good competitor ?

Olive
 
W

Wildemar Wildenburger

Torsten said:
Hallöchen!
Yes, you're German. Have you ever noticed that (we) Germans are
virtually the only ones that feel the need to rub our nationality into
everyones faces? ;)

Paul Rubin writes

Well, because they are awful. ;-) I don't see that there is a
bunch of already existing projects, in fact, I don't see anyone
challenging LaTeX at all. However, competition is a good thing, and
I think there are enough aspects about LaTeX that can be done better
so that this project is worth being done.
Well there is ConTeXt <URL:http://wiki.contextgarden.net/>. I've never
actually used it, but from reading the docs I deem it a very attractive
alternative to LaTeX.

/W
 
T

Torsten Bronger

Hallöchen!
[...]
Well, because they are awful. ;-) I don't see that there is a
bunch of already existing projects, in fact, I don't see anyone
challenging LaTeX at all. However, competition is a good thing,
and I think there are enough aspects about LaTeX that can be done
better so that this project is worth being done.

What about ODF ? (http://www.odfalliance.org/) Isn't it a good
competitor ?

I'd be a nice further backend but I doubt that people want to enter
XML.

Tschö,
Torsten.
 
T

Torsten Bronger

Hallöchen!

Wildemar said:
[...]
Well, because they are awful. ;-) I don't see that there is a
bunch of already existing projects, in fact, I don't see anyone
challenging LaTeX at all. However, competition is a good thing,
and I think there are enough aspects about LaTeX that can be done
better so that this project is worth being done.

Well there is ConTeXt <URL:http://wiki.contextgarden.net/>. I've
never actually used it, but from reading the docs I deem it a very
attractive alternative to LaTeX.

That's right, I failed to mention ConTeXt, which really is a
competitor to LaTeX. I even took one good idea from context, namely
the availability of syntax elements in different human languages.

However, ConTeXt documents are as much cluttered as LaTeX. ConTeXt
is a huge system with the aim of fine control on the PDF layout.
Therefore, it is even harder to convert it to HTML than it is for
LaTeX. Besides, I never managed to comprehend its documentation.

It has its good aspects, too, but these are the reasons why I don't
think that it would be a good starting point for improving the
situation with plain text document markup languages.

Tschö,
Torsten.
 
O

olive

Hallöchen!


I'd be a nice further backend but I doubt that people want to enter
XML.

Why not if the schema is designed toward data entry.

You could then use XSLT to convert to ODF for publishing.

What you need is good structured text editor which hides as much as
possible the underlying XML (or other) format.

Olive.
 
W

Wildemar Wildenburger

olive said:
What you need is good structured text editor which hides as much as
possible the underlying XML (or other) format.
What you do there is pose extra requirements on the user ("Use a text
editor with some far-out functions"). That will prevent your (well,
Torsten's ;)) standard from spreading easily. Plain text (read: less
intrusive) markup is a way better approach there, IMHO, because it can
be done in any old editor.

/W
 
O

olive

What you do there is pose extra requirements on the user ("Use a text
editor with some far-out functions"). That will prevent your (well,
Torsten's ;)) standard from spreading easily. Plain text (read: less
intrusive) markup is a way better approach there, IMHO, because it can
be done in any old editor.

We are talking about two different things: data entry and document
publishing.

for me ODF is good for document publishing only.

I agree that Plain Text Markup is usually better than XML even with a
good XML editor and a simple schema.

But few people are used to Plain Text Markup (excepted in some
scientific area maybe) and it is error prone.

This is why some user-friendly PTM or XML based editors are needed.

Good user-friendly editor will help in spreading standard.
OpenOffice is a good example for ODF but this has never happened to
XML or any other markup language.

Olive
 
A

Aahz

reStructuredText, AsciiDoc, and some others focus on source code
documentation, or on software documentation. In contrast to that,
our markup should be suitable for PhD theses, papers and the like.
Thus, it has weaker means for code snippets, RFC citation etc, but
rich syntax for bibliographic entries, index entries, math, and
floating figures.

Enh. reST is intended to be a general-purpose system. It's certainly
extensible, and I've added code for index entries myself. There has
been some recent activity on improving bibliographic support, and I
believe some people are working on integrating MathML.
Additionally, input methods simplify using characters like δ, ⇒, or
â€.

"Everyone" says to just use a Unicode editor. Long-term, I think that's
what's going to happen -- you're starting your project too late for this
to make much sense.
The differences to LaTeX are explained comprehensively on the
webpage, and actually LaTeX is the real competitor rather than
reStructuredText. OOo isn't a plain text format, and has no strong
semantic markup.

Then you're really caught between a rock and a hard place. LaTeX is
extremely well-entrenched; at the same time reST is gaining features.
You would probably make much better progress on your goals by simply
working on the reST project -- I doubt you can improve on reST as a
markup language, and the more you try to cram in, the more you're going
to look like LaTeX, anyway.

OTOH, this is Open Source, and nobody's going to stop you. ;-) I just
think you're also not going to get much traction.
 
J

J. Robertson

olive said:
But few people are used to Plain Text Markup (excepted in some
scientific area maybe) and it is error prone.

It looks very much like Gummi's authors and target audience actually are
part of the few people you are talking about: i.e. console-happy folks
that are perfectly fine with how the math system goes in LaTeX, say, but
are annoyed by the clutter besides that. I can't imagine they would
want to go anywhere near an equation editor, for example.

Looks like a worthwhile project to me :)
 
T

Torsten Bronger

Hallöchen!
Torsten Bronger said:
[...]

reStructuredText, AsciiDoc, and some others focus on source code
documentation, or on software documentation. In contrast to
that, our markup should be suitable for PhD theses, papers and
the like. Thus, it has weaker means for code snippets, RFC
citation etc, but rich syntax for bibliographic entries, index
entries, math, and floating figures.

Enh. reST is intended to be a general-purpose system. It's
certainly extensible, and I've added code for index entries
myself.

I like reST very much, and it is used for all documentation in the
"Gummi" source files. I could probably use it as a starting point
for the features that I want but the same is true for AsciiDoc or
MediaWiki. I doubt, however, that the resulting syntax is what I
want (see below).
There has been some recent activity on improving bibliographic
support, and I believe some people are working on integrating
MathML.

But I hope only for the backend side?
"Everyone" says to just use a Unicode editor. Long-term, I think
that's what's going to happen -- you're starting your project too
late for this to make much sense.

Well, your newsreader failed to specify UTF-8, and my newsreader
failed to do a proper auto-detect. So, Unicode has not arrived yet.
;-)

Seriously: Most people can't enter those characters. In LaTeX, you
can use many Unicode characters directy for years, however, only few
documents make use of this. To most people, it's probably simpler
to write \alpha than to find and use the Unicode-insertion tool of
their editor.
[...]

Then you're really caught between a rock and a hard place. LaTeX
is extremely well-entrenched;

But only in a small group (compared to Word for example).

The main motivation of our group was to see that many people stay
away from LaTeX because it is too complicated. The basic assertion
of our project is that this complexity is not necessary while still
maintaining important features of LaTeX (plain text file format,
semantic markup). It is a tradeoff, though: You give up a lot of
flexibility. However, I think that this particular type of
flexibility (namely, local layout tweaking) is of minor
importance.

Probably one important thing that didn't get through yet is that we
try to get people to semantic markup who don't come from engineering
or science. These are heavily under-represented in the LaTeX
community. "Gummi" (or however we'll call it) is not supposed to be
another Geek language. On the contrary, our goal is that even a
typical linguistics student loves to write their seminar paper with
"Gummi".

Reading only forums and newsgroups, one may think that this is
impossible but in real life, I've seen more people using LaTeX
exactly once and never again than people who keep using it. If I
look at typical modern LaTeX preambles, I know what went wrong, so I
see a lot of potential.

However, then a very defensively constructed syntax is crucial, and
everything must just work -- without having to use a tool chain or
declaring things before you can use them.

Tschö,
Torsten.
 
J

Jeremy Sanders

Torsten said:
Some LaTeX users in Aachen thought about a general-use markup
language this spring. I wrote some code and a rough project
description, however, we could need some help.

If you are interested, visit the provisional project page at
http://latex-bronger.sourceforge.net/gummi/

Sounds a good idea - LaTeX has so many historical hangovers. How many people
on earth can actually write a LaTeX style file?

I'm not sure about writing LaTeX output, however, due to the crude nasty
ways it handles fonts and so on. How are you going to get enough controls
for users over what they always complain about: fonts, page breaking, and
positioning of figures? Maybe it's an okay first step however.

Jeremy
 

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