Community (A Modest Proposal)

[David Robinow]

That is the most sensible thing you have said yet. Please do so, it will
be a great thing for the Python community.

Eagerly awaiting the transfer of this thread to comp.lang.rython

 

[Mark Lawrence]

On 6/13/10 8:42 AM, rantingrick wrote:

[big snip]

Stephen, you've tried as have others with this troll, but you're wasting
your time. As I said a day or two back by paraphrasing Tommy Docherty,
Ranting Rick is to Python what King Herod was to baby sitting.

I guess the best thing to do is let the poor little child go home to
mummy, grab his comfort blanket and teddy, have a lovely glass of warm
milk and some biscuits, and then let mummy tuck him up safely in bed.

Do I hate him (I assume him), or despise him or whatever. No. I feel
very sorry for him. As he is incapable of communicating effectively I
seriously do wonder if he suffers from some form of autism, Asperger
Syndrome maybe?

Seriously.

Mark Lawrence.

 

[Stephen Hansen]

On 6/13/10 8:42 AM, rantingrick wrote:

[big snip]

Stephen, you've tried as have others with this troll, but you're wasting
your time.

Realistically, I know. However, http://xkcd.com/386/ currently has a
grip on my spine.

Do I hate him (I assume him), or despise him or whatever. No. I feel
very sorry for him.

I feel very little one way or the other. Largely emotionally neutral on
the whole thing.

As he is incapable of communicating effectively I
seriously do wonder if he suffers from some form of autism, Asperger
Syndrome maybe?

No offense, but I don't find such speculations or discussion of mental
illness to be appropriate.

I take issue with his communication style, that's all.

--

Stephen Hansen
... Also: Ixokai
... Mail: me+list/python (AT) ixokai (DOT) io
... Blog: http://meh.ixokai.io/


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[Alf P. Steinbach]

* Steven D'Aprano, on 13.06.2010 19:57:

That is the most sensible thing you have said yet. Please do so, it will
be a great thing for the Python community.

Not nice to quote out of context, there was an "if" and a "then" earlier in
Rick's sentence.

I don't think he'll do it, or if he does, I don't think it will fly.

There are two reasons why I think it won't fly if attempted. One is the
technical aspect: it's just too much, and maintaining compatibility with
libraries is in direct conflict with the goal of improvement. The other is
social: I don't think it would be possible to establish a sufficiently large
supportive community for something in direct competition with CPython.

What I think will happen regarding the future of Python is the same as currently
is happening with C++. The language evolved or rather perhaps "devolved" into
higher complexity than its users, and even the compiler vendors, felt
comfortable with. And then a number of similar but simpler languages (e.g.
Objective C and Walter Bright's D, not to mentioned "C++ as a better C" and
various formalizations of that subset idea) started to fill some of the niche
that C++ earlier had all of; this is still an ongoing process.

Comparing C++ and Python evolution may seem far fetched, but e.g. the C++
standardization working groups adopted the idea of PEPs from Python. In C++
they're called "proposals" or "papers" but it's much the same thing. Python has
Guido, C++ has Bjarne. In both cases the original language was designed
single-handedly by the god. And in both cases it's now essentially
design-by-committee.


Cheers,

- Alf

 

[Anthony Papillion]

Why was the reaction so negative? Well i will admit some fault in the

fact that i trashed Ruby pretty bad. I felt everything i said was true
IMO then as is now (mostly). People should have a right to opinions.
However since i was such an "unknown" and you could say a "newbie",
was this reaction warranted? I think not, and it speaks volumes to the
negative attitudes within this community.

While I'm not new to software development in other languages, I'm
completely new to Python and the Python community. I've only been
here about a week and have asked some pretty elementary questions
during that time only to be greeted respectfully and offered help.
From reading the posts on this group, it seems like the Python
community is much like any other programming (or even just volunteer
community): they're helpful if you show you're willing to do the work
yourself and if you show you've at least tried to solve the problem
yourself to a degree (even if you've failed). Volunteer communities
have little patience for the 'do it for me' mindset as *everyone* is
busy with jobs, life, and their own pet projects.

Overall, I couldn't disagree with you more. I find most communities
(and the c.l.p community in particular) *very* accessible and very
helpful. On the other hand, I *could* see how your post could scare
off newbies from jumping in for fear of being 'attacked' as you say
you were. IMHO, your posts serves no purpose but to hurt the community
and scare away newbies.

Anthony Papillion

 

[John Bokma]

Here's the thing. Python has one of the nicest communities of most
software projects (except maybe ubuntu), try Perl or C. Unless you
completely know what you're talking about, have spent atleast 1/2 an
hour researching your problem, those guys will refrain from helping.

Not entirely true, but I do agree, as a long time Perl programmer, that
the Usenet Perl community has an above average share of asshats. I have
made several attempts to fix that, recent and in the past, but it's just
a small clique of regulars that consider themselves above a lot.

Compared to that I do consider this group (I read this via Usenet) a lot
more friendly.

On the other hand, I do agree that if one wants to learn a programming
language but considers looking in the obvious places (FAQ, perldoc,
etc.) already too much work that programming isn't for that person. And
that answering such questions will soon result in a vast stream of
questions by the same person, a lot of which could've been answered by a
few hours of self-study.


Anyway, thanks everybody here for keeping this place readable ;-)

Finally, regarding the readable thing: I prefer if people don't top
post, or at least don't quote the entire message at the bottom if they
consider their reply stand alone enough to warrant a top post.

 

[Steven D'Aprano]

* Steven D'Aprano, on 13.06.2010 19:57:

Not nice to quote out of context, there was an "if" and a "then" earlier
in Rick's sentence.

And regardless of the qualifications he gave, RantingRick starting his
own fork will be a wonderful thing for oh so many reasons.

I don't think he'll do it, or if he does, I don't think it will fly.

Please don't discourage him.

What the Python community needs more than anything else right now is for
RantingRick to create a community of all those who share his vision for
the future without all the negative energy from those who disagree with
him. I encourage him to start immediately.

I don't think it would be possible to establish a
sufficiently large supportive community for something in direct
competition with CPython.

The CPython developers (particularly Guido) are explicitly encouraging
alternate implementations. I can't find the exact quote, but as I
understand it, Guido's vision is to keep CPython as the reference
implementation while encouraging people to use whatever implementation
meets their specific needs, rather than trying to make CPython all things
for all people.

For example, the moratorium on new features to the language was
explicitly to give Jython, IronPython and other implementations time to
catch up to CPython 3.1.

If RantingRick believes that CPython is not going in the direction that
the community wants, he should create his own implementation. If he
builds something the community wants, they will come.

If an alternative implementation is too much for him, even a repackaged
distribution like Komodo or similar would be a great thing. Let him
repackage CPython with whatever GUI toolkit he thinks the community wants.

 

[rantingrick]

Perhaps you are listening selectively. I have said more than once on
this list that I use IDLE, I like using it, it works for me, AND I would
like it improved. When a student proposed that as part of a Google
Summer of Code project, I (and others) encouraged him to go ahead, which
he did. Any concrete effort you make to improve IDLE would be
appreciated by me. There are issues on the tracker already.

Terry Jan Reedy

Sorry Terry -- with all the noise here the very few "quality" signals
just seem to be lost on my "auditory cortex".

We are at once lucky to have a built in editor and at the same time
cursed by the very static development cycles of this module. IDLE is a
mess and i think the only way to fix this mess is strip it stark
naked, expose it's ugly to the world, and slowly add the layers back
to it in a more intelligent way all the while creating a more elegant
IDLE in the process.

Some peeves:
The tabs in the shell and four spaces in the editor is just complete
nonsense! The fact that the shell does not insert a "... "
continuation is a real nuance! The constant "zombie" processes
requiring explicit kills via task manager are quite annoying (albeit
not topping my list of concerns at this time). Not to mention the fact
that a file dialog, replace dialog, or find dialog can lose focus and
drop to the bottom of the window stack faster than Obama's approval
ratings after BP takes a leak!

One feature i would like to create is an ability to redo the last
command. Pressing an F* key should return you to the last block for
editing. Why have a traceback clutter up the output when you made a
simple little mistake? I hate to have a shell just cluttered with
exceptions. Also the ability to clear the buffer and maybe also remove
*all* exceptions might be an added bonus for our "tidy" minded
friends.

But digging a bit deeper... not only is the UI awful, but the code
itself is just awful. That may be the reason why i start to fix it,
get frustrated, and then shortly after quit. IDLE has not been
properly maintained since Guido left us the house keys. Too many frat
parties and booze fests have left IDLE in a state of disrepair.

Although I think IDLE is *so* very important to... of course i am not
speaking to the emacs guys or "that other editor" crowd. *you* people
would not be caught dead using IDLE... *to* the new users of Python
(and like in Terry and my exception) some tried and true Pythonistas!

Hopefully i'll get the motivation for that re-write real soon. So far
i have only corrected a few small but very annoying facets of the UI
in between my other various up-and-coming projects. However it would
be nice to get all the "IDLE-heads" together and do a complete
rewrite. The nice thing about a group is the motivation factor.

 

[geremy condra]

 Hopefully i'll get the motivation for that re-write real soon. So far
i have only corrected a few small but very annoying facets of the UI
in between my other various up-and-coming projects. However it would
be nice to get all the "IDLE-heads" together and do a complete
rewrite. The nice thing about a group is the motivation factor.

And now we come to the crux of the matter- you cheerlead and do
nothing because you need to have people patting you on the back
to know you're going the right direction.

Hint: everybody who has ever started anything really different and
new and worth doing has looked over their shoulder and thought
"maybe I should be back there with those guys", and a lot of
great things have never happened because of it. But either way
you'll eventually have to learn to live without the pats on the back.

Geremy Condra

 

[Dennis Lee Bieber]

Stephen, you've tried as have others with this troll, but you're wasting
your time. As I said a day or two back by paraphrasing Tommy Docherty,
Ranting Rick is to Python what King Herod was to baby sitting.

I guess the best thing to do is let the poor little child go home to
mummy, grab his comfort blanket and teddy, have a lovely glass of warm
milk and some biscuits, and then let mummy tuck him up safely in bed.

Coming in from left field (if I understand sports metaphors)...

What I find somewhat humorous about this whole thread is that, about
three months ago (just checked the saved outgoing log -- Feb 13 -- any
server honoring x-noarchive will have wiped it by now), I had the
audacity to suggest that someone using the name "rantingrick" might have
been a sort of "sockpuppet"... And I was given a light slap on the wrist
for it...

 

[rantingrick]

And now we come to the crux of the matter- you cheerlead and do
nothing because you need to have people patting you on the back
to know you're going the right direction.

....yes and if i ever need a swift kick in the grapes well then i know
who to call.

 

[rantingrick]

1. I agree.
2. This does not much affect me since I do not directly enter compound
statement with more than, say, 2 lines in the body, even with the
command window interpreter. I much prefer a full screen editor.

But i think you'll agree that fixing this is important even if not to
you, right?

There was a thread about this a few months ago. As I reported then,
there is only a problem (for me, at least) when one severs the
connection to the background process with control-C. Since I almost
never need to do that except when testing ;-), this is not a problem.

I get this problem when doing heavy Tkinter development. Since IDLE is
written in Tkinter you can create some "zombie" processes very easily.
It may be more of a tk.mainloop issue than anything but that is what i
am referring to. I did go over a few months of bug reports last night
just to get an idea of what people are wanting fixed.

I have not noticed this.

Open a few IDLE windows (at least three) Then goto File->SaveAs and
let the dialog appear. Then refocus the window stack to another IDLE
window. The SaveAs dialog will drop to the bottom of the stack. This
should not be allowed, the SaveAs needs to be a transient of the
window that called it. And to further the problems, you can even open
*another* SaveAs window and not ever be aware that one is hiding back
there!!! Only one file dialog should be allowed open at any one time!
This is a major design flaw, however luckily an easy fix!

When I tried to read the IDLE code with an eye to helping with patches,
I got lost in the setup code before I even got to the tk gui code. So I
can easily imagine that it might be better organized to be more easily
read and maintained. Perhaps I will try again some time.

Wait a minute Terry, this is where we keep going astray!. We need to
work *together* to solve this problem. Don't go out on your own into a
bewildering ocean of poorly written code (sorry Guido)! Maybe i am
pretty good with Tkinter, design models, motivation, and you're better
with RPC, subprocess, parsers, whatever! No one person can bring about
the better IDLE, we need to tackle this as a team with a clear focus
on the end game. We can see the current status quo is getting nowhere
fast.

Now I don't want to apply too much pressure on you Terry, however you
"Terry Reedy" may be the *only* hope for a complete IDLE re-write. Why
you ask? Because only *you* have the reputation that will bring in the
heavy artillery. No one can pick apart your good reputation. If you
lead, they will follow!

As for myself I can re-write all the GUI code and lead the re-design
of the code base. I have the vision, the motivation, and the skills.
However i need others to pick up the pieces that i cannot. United we
are destined to win, divided we are doomed to fail!

If we form a group, get the input from everyone, create a better code
base, and hash out a plan. Then we can fix this damn thing once and
for all! IDLE cannot be fixed with a patch here or a patch there. It
is antiquated code that must be re-written for usability's sake AND
for readability's sake... although we can salvage quite a bit!

We need to find the people with diverse skill sets and focus those
diverse skills in a very direct and intelligent manner, meanwhile
simultaneousness covering each others weaknesses (thigh to neck!).
Like the impenetrable Spartan phalanx for example...

"""We will stop IDLE's rotting code by rebuilding the great IDLE
community! And from there, we will funnel this code into the filter we
call common sense. Now, in that focused corridor of thought, it's
numbers of atrocious code lines will count for nothing! And wave after
wave of IDLE abominations will *smash* against our Pythonic shields.
IDLE's losses will be *so* great, it's atrocious code base *so*
demoralized, it will have no choice but to abandon this static
development cycle and yield to the very will of Pythonia!"""

What say ye...?

 

[Steven D'Aprano]

It is certainly a boon to someone like me who now only programs in
Python and had no experience, let alone commitment to any of the current
alternative.

I know that lots of people swear by IDEs, and back in Ancient Days I used
to use the THINK Pascal IDE on a Macintosh so I'm not hostile to the
idea. But in those days you could only run one app at a time, so you
needed an IDE or you'd go insane. These days I have an xterm open with a
couple of tabs in one window, an editor open in the other, and it all
Just Works. The only nuisance is when I get a traceback, I have to
manually copy the line number from the terminal window and paste it into
the Go To Line dialog in my editor, instead of the editor magically
scrolling to the right line automatically. But other than that, I don't
see the advantage of an IDE. What am I missing?

 

[James Mills]

But other than that, I don't
see the advantage of an IDE. What am I missing?

You're not missing anything my dear watson

I myself use vim (as my editor) and 2-3 Terminals on virtual workspaces
(in my DE). I guess the beauty with vim is you just read the line no.
type it in and hit ^G

IDEs are over glorified IHMO and yes I've had my fair share of them
with things like Delphi, Visual Basic, Visual Studio, and others...

--James

 

[Andreas Waldenburger]

I myself use vim (as my editor) and 2-3 Terminals on virtual
workspaces (in my DE). I guess the beauty with vim is you just read
the line no. type it in and hit ^G

You mean just G (Shift+g), right? ^G (Ctrl+G) prints the file name and
cursor position.

Incidentally, :<linenumber><Return> does the same as <linenumber>G.

Sorry, that's seriously OT, but think about the havoc this could wreak
if some uninformed layperson read this and took it to heart.

/W

 

[Michael Torrie]

I know that lots of people swear by IDEs, and back in Ancient Days I used
to use the THINK Pascal IDE on a Macintosh so I'm not hostile to the
idea. But in those days you could only run one app at a time, so you
needed an IDE or you'd go insane. These days I have an xterm open with a
couple of tabs in one window, an editor open in the other, and it all
Just Works. The only nuisance is when I get a traceback, I have to
manually copy the line number from the terminal window and paste it into
the Go To Line dialog in my editor, instead of the editor magically
scrolling to the right line automatically. But other than that, I don't
see the advantage of an IDE. What am I missing?

In some languages, due to the size and complexity of the libraries, an
IDE is essential. Java is one of those languages. C++ development also
highly benefits. Any compiled language also benefits from the project
management and build management tools that an IDE provides. Project and
build management and code completion are the killer features of IDEs.
Vim has some code completion, but it's nowhere as easy to use or
complete as in Visual Studio.

With python I can usually get away with one interactive python session,
a vim editor, my Python in a nutshell book, and the python.org docs.
That's largely because python's standard libraries have help strings,
and python lets you navigate the live object space. Also it helps that
Python's libraries don't get hung up quite so much on patterns and
LongDescriptiveNames.

 

[Grant Edwards]

I know that lots of people swear by IDEs, and back in Ancient Days I
used to use the THINK Pascal IDE on a Macintosh so I'm not hostile to
the idea. But in those days you could only run one app at a time, so
you needed an IDE or you'd go insane. These days I have an xterm open
with a couple of tabs in one window, an editor open in the other, and
it all Just Works. The only nuisance is when I get a traceback, I
have to manually copy the line number from the terminal window and
paste it into the Go To Line dialog in my editor, instead of the
editor magically scrolling to the right line automatically. But other
than that, I don't see the advantage of an IDE. What am I missing?

You got me. I tend to type the line number rather than cut/paste, but
I too have tried IDEs and found them cumbersome. It's Emacs and a
couple xterms for me. I do recommend an editor with syntax
highlighting and indentation tools.

 

[geremy condra]

IDEs are seriously over-rated.
Vim FTW.
The only issue for beginners is they should know touch typing to fully
utilize Vim and the initial curve is a bit high as compared to normal
editors/IDEs.

Used to be vim-only. Then I got to know gedit's latex plugin better,
and started doing literate code. Pretty much all gedit now.

Still feels slightly dirty.

Geremy Condra