Comparioson of purpose for PyGUI and AnyGUI ???

Discussion in 'Python' started by Ron Stephens, Sep 16, 2004.

  1. Ron Stephens

    Ron Stephens Guest

    Can anyone give me a brief comparison of the purposes of these two
    projects (AnyGUI and pyGUI)? In other words, how are the motivations
    and goals for each project different?

    Ron Stephens
     
    Ron Stephens, Sep 16, 2004
    #1
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  2. And wax ?
     
    =?iso-8859-1?Q?Michel_Claveau_-_abstraction_m=E9ta, Sep 16, 2004
    #2
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  3. Francesco Bochicchio <> wrote:
    ...
    > layer). The real challenge is to make the devlopers of the various
    > extensions agree on the 'best' GUI API.


    Even though a while ago I participated in the design of AnyGUI's API, I
    believe Greg has the makings of a better API in PyGUI. And if you can
    get one designer of a "competing" API to say that, there may be some
    hope for a wider consensus;-).

    A meta-consensus should be on the point that we need a Benevolent
    Dictator, rather than pure design-by-committee, for this API -- Magnus
    roughly played that BD role for AnyGUI, and Greg would be the natural
    candidate for BD of a GUI based on PyGUI. The DB API has a committee
    approach, but, while that may make it easier to reach consensus, it does
    have its downsides. A BD can ensure progress at a more sensible pace
    and architectural integrity. The fact that applications using the DB
    API are a mess to make portable, because of the DB API's "politically
    abstruse compromise" to allow DB modules to adopt very different
    parameter substitution syntaxes, is an example of what I have in mind...


    Alex
     
    Alex Martelli, Sep 18, 2004
    #3
  4. In article <1gkb1xb.13ayfy1rayeymN%>, Alex Martelli wrote:
    >Francesco Bochicchio <> wrote:
    > ...
    >> layer). The real challenge is to make the devlopers of the various
    >> extensions agree on the 'best' GUI API.

    >
    >Even though a while ago I participated in the design of AnyGUI's API, I
    >believe Greg has the makings of a better API in PyGUI. And if you can
    >get one designer of a "competing" API to say that, there may be some
    >hope for a wider consensus;-).


    :)

    I haven't examined Greg's API in detail lately, but the original
    Anygui API was inspired by it. I do think Greg seems to have a knack
    for simple and pragmatic solutions, while I may have a weakness for
    'clever' and 'cute' (c.f. Anygui ;)

    There have been comments about elsewhere in this thread about a
    fundamental issue in Anygui: The need to support many toolkits. This
    was the raison d'être for Anygui in the first place -- it was supposed
    to be a pure-Python module that would run (almost) anywhere,
    regardless of which GUI toolkit the user/admin happened to have
    installed.

    Anygui succeeded as a proof of concept, but the burden of sustained
    support and development for many toolkits did make it very impractical
    to keep things going. At the moment the project is effectively on ice.

    If Greg can make a reasonably full-featured system (which isn't too
    hard to install/compile and has a native look on the major platforms)
    I think that would be a major step toward a 'standard' GUI package for
    Python. If not, there are existing packages (e.g. wx) that work very
    well -- perhaps there really isn't a need for anything more standard
    than that?

    --
    Magnus Lie Hetland Fallen flower I see / Returning to its branch
    http://hetland.org Ah! a butterfly. [Arakida Moritake]
     
    Magnus Lie Hetland, Sep 18, 2004
    #4
  5. On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 12:26:29 +0000 (UTC), Magnus Lie Hetland
    <> wrote:
    > Anygui succeeded as a proof of concept, but the burden of sustained
    > support and development for many toolkits did make it very impractical
    > to keep things going. At the moment the project is effectively on ice.


    It's a shame. I've looked at it a few days ago, and I was actually
    wondering if the development had stopped -- the newest news on the
    site are quite old, in fact.

    > If Greg can make a reasonably full-featured system (which isn't too
    > hard to install/compile and has a native look on the major platforms)
    > I think that would be a major step toward a 'standard' GUI package for
    > Python. If not, there are existing packages (e.g. wx) that work very
    > well -- perhaps there really isn't a need for anything more standard
    > than that?


    I'm hedging my bets on a related (but different) approach. I'm writing
    business apps, and the style of interaction that I'm using doesn't
    require a high degree of customization. It's a subset of the full GUI
    approach, using simple data-entry forms and very little "live"
    features. I want to be able to provide both native and browser based
    frontends. The two versions do not need to work exactly the same way;
    for example, some features may only be available on the native
    front-end, but the API must degrade nicely in the case of unsupported
    features.

    How is it going to work? My idea is to have some kind of form
    description API, with hooks for validation and live data lookups. The
    engine will take care of the rendering either any of the frontends.
    I'm doing some experiments with wxPython and DHTML, and the results
    are promising. In a way, it's AnyGUI revisited with a web twist :)

    The biggest problem with this kind of approach is not handling the
    visual differences between different toolkits. There are workable
    solutions for automatic layout, or to port common widgets between the
    wxWidgets and the browser-based versions. The biggest issue is how to
    handle architectural differences between a browser based app -- where
    there is a clear separation betwen the server and client code -- and
    the wxWidgets version, where no such separation is assumed. My
    intention is to make the wxWidgets version mimic the browser-one in
    this respect. For simple apps this is not as big an issue as one might
    think, but for more complex ones, it may have a cost in terms of
    flexibility and interactivity.

    For now, I'm still experimenting. But it's being interesting to
    explore both the similarities and the differences between the two
    models, and what types of tricks can be used to bring the two
    together.

    --
    Carlos Ribeiro
    Consultoria em Projetos
    blog: http://rascunhosrotos.blogspot.com
    blog: http://pythonnotes.blogspot.com
    mail:
    mail:
     
    Carlos Ribeiro, Sep 18, 2004
    #5
  6. Magnus Lie Hetland <> wrote:
    ...
    > I haven't examined Greg's API in detail lately, but the original
    > Anygui API was inspired by it. I do think Greg seems to have a knack
    > for simple and pragmatic solutions, while I may have a weakness for
    > 'clever' and 'cute' (c.f. Anygui ;)


    Yeah, I share that weakness, in terms of character, even though in my
    case it's usually kept under control by a lifetime of experience (but
    with Anygui we were "just having fun", so...:).

    > Anygui succeeded as a proof of concept, but the burden of sustained
    > support and development for many toolkits did make it very impractical
    > to keep things going. At the moment the project is effectively on ice.


    Very good summary!


    > If Greg can make a reasonably full-featured system (which isn't too
    > hard to install/compile and has a native look on the major platforms)


    I get the impression Greg isn't particularly interested in writing and
    maintaining a Windows back-end (and I find hard to fault him for that: I
    earn a living mostly developing for Linux, and whenever I possibly can I
    use a Mac -- indeed, I deliberately walked away from years of expertise
    programming for Win [[see http://www.aleax.it/TutWin32/index.htm]]
    because I just couldn't stand it any more...!-). But surely _some_body
    must be willing, able and motivated to work on that...? Or does
    everybody in the world loathe Windows programming so much they will only
    do it for financial gain?-)

    > I think that would be a major step toward a 'standard' GUI package for
    > Python. If not, there are existing packages (e.g. wx) that work very
    > well -- perhaps there really isn't a need for anything more standard
    > than that?


    I think there _is_ a need for something as elegant as Greg's API to take
    over, as the emerging de-facto standard, from wxWidgets' more
    complicated approach (which wxPython mostly resembles). To be honest, I
    am not adamant enough about it to buy a Windows computer and development
    environment (when all of my computers today are Linux or Mac ones) AND
    devote time and energy to Windows programming. But I do think it will
    be a pity if everybody else, particularly people who _do_ like Windows,
    similarly eschews involvement in PyGUI!-)


    Alex
     
    Alex Martelli, Sep 18, 2004
    #6
  7. Ron Stephens

    John Lenton Guest

    On Sat, Sep 18, 2004 at 10:13:53AM -0300, Carlos Ribeiro wrote:
    >
    > I'm hedging my bets on a related (but different) approach. I'm writing
    > business apps, and the style of interaction that I'm using doesn't
    > require a high degree of customization. It's a subset of the full GUI
    > approach, using simple data-entry forms and very little "live"
    > features. I want to be able to provide both native and browser based
    > frontends. The two versions do not need to work exactly the same way;
    > for example, some features may only be available on the native
    > front-end, but the API must degrade nicely in the case of unsupported
    > features.


    what you describe is Cimarrón. Although there hasn't been an official
    release, it is in use in a (very small) number of production
    systems. Unfortunately I/we haven't had time to actually go for the
    web side of the thing, but the idea is that it will (eventually) have
    it.

    > How is it going to work? My idea is to have some kind of form
    > description API, with hooks for validation and live data lookups. The
    > engine will take care of the rendering either any of the frontends.
    > I'm doing some experiments with wxPython and DHTML, and the results
    > are promising. In a way, it's AnyGUI revisited with a web twist :)


    we chose gtk2 instead of wx because gtk2 feels much more pythonic (to
    us, at least). I'd be interested in knowing what you thought of for
    the server side of the dhtml; we had thought about using twisted,
    because its event-driven approach fits in very nicely with gui
    programming.

    Bah, dunno if there's any useful content for you in this mail...
    Maybe an URL will help:

    http://savannah.nongnu.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs/papo/cimarron/

    Hmm, we haven't commited the last changes. I've got to tell styxman
    off...

    --
    John Lenton () -- Random fortune:
    El pescar con caña, requiere paciencia y maña.

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    John Lenton, Sep 21, 2004
    #7
  8. On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 20:18:39 -0300, John Lenton <> wrote:
    > we chose gtk2 instead of wx because gtk2 feels much more pythonic (to
    > us, at least). I'd be interested in knowing what you thought of for
    > the server side of the dhtml; we had thought about using twisted,
    > because its event-driven approach fits in very nicely with gui
    > programming.


    I've checked several web application environments. Just to mention a
    few: Twisted, Quixote, Webware, Zope, and CherryPy. Zope is in a class
    of it's own, as it's Twisted (for different reasons). For my
    particular needs, I've chosen the simplest of all -- CherryPy. The
    reason was the inclusion of a usable internal HTTP server option. It
    eases testing, and makes possible to deploy applications almost
    anywhere -- for example, any reasonably powered Windows workstation
    can be a server with a surprisingly good performance. The reasoning
    goes this way: for each business application where performance is a
    problem, once can count a dozen of others that will have a handful of
    simultaneous users, and in this scenario the hassle of running
    Apache+Zope/Webware is just not worth it. Quixote was a close second:
    it has a clean design, it's light, but the internal server is not as
    convenient as CherryPy's one. Twisted is just too much for me: it's a
    jack of all trades and a master of none, or at least that was the
    impression that a reading of the documentation and other readers
    experience suggested me.

    p.s. CherryPy2 is still alpha, but the design rocks, in my opinion.
    It's as light and pythonic as it can be.

    p.s. Thanks for the pointer to Cimarron. I'll check it tonight.

    --
    Carlos Ribeiro
    Consultoria em Projetos
    blog: http://rascunhosrotos.blogspot.com
    blog: http://pythonnotes.blogspot.com
    mail:
    mail:
     
    Carlos Ribeiro, Sep 21, 2004
    #8
  9. Ron Stephens

    Chris Barker Guest

    Chris Barker, Sep 21, 2004
    #9
  10. On 20 Sep 2004 23:21:03 -0700, Chris Barker <> wrote:
    > Carlos Ribeiro <> wrote in message
    >
    > > in this scenario the hassle of running
    > > Apache+Zope/Webware is just not worth it.

    >
    > For what it's worth, there is a built-in server for Webware as well:


    I've tried it too. It's heavier and less responsive than CherryPy's
    one (at least in my machine, which is memory-and-GHz-impaired), and
    less convenient. CherryPy is automatic in this regard.


    --
    Carlos Ribeiro
    Consultoria em Projetos
    blog: http://rascunhosrotos.blogspot.com
    blog: http://pythonnotes.blogspot.com
    mail:
    mail:
     
    Carlos Ribeiro, Sep 21, 2004
    #10
  11. Alex Martelli wrote:

    > [...] Or does everybody in the world loathe Windows
    > programming so much they will only do it for financial gain?-)


    Or -- financial loss? :p


    loading-RH9-tomorrow'ly y'rs,
    Richard Hanson

    --
    sick<PERI0D>old<P0INT>fart<PIE-DEC0-SYMB0L>newsguy<MARK>com
     
    Richard Hanson, Sep 22, 2004
    #11
  12. On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 20:17:26 -0700, Richard Hanson <>
    wrote:

    >loading-RH9-tomorrow'ly y'rs,
    >Richard Hanson


    OT but I can't resist.

    Pay attention to what you're doing and please be sure
    you're installing a very current very patched system.
    I installed RH9 on a server (to replace an old machine
    running RH6) and to my great surprise it lasted to the
    wind of the internet about 6 hours before being rooted
    by a romanian idiot.

    Is it only the brand name the part I don't like in
    windows ? I would say not.

    Andrea
     
    Andrea Griffini, Sep 22, 2004
    #12
  13. [OT] Linux distro recommendations for HP Omnibook 900B laptop? [was Re: Comparioson of purpose for PyGUI and AnyGUI ???]

    [I'm not aware of the local customs re CC'ing the poster being
    replied to when changing the subject line to start a new thread. I'd
    welcome advice if such is desired. So far, I've only replied
    in-group.]

    Andrea Griffini wrote:

    > On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 20:17:26 -0700, Richard Hanson <>
    > wrote:
    >
    > >loading-RH9-tomorrow'ly y'rs,

    >
    > OT but I can't resist.


    Glad you didn't resist!

    > Pay attention to what you're doing and please be sure
    > you're installing a very current very patched system.
    > I installed RH9 on a server (to replace an old machine
    > running RH6) and to my great surprise it lasted to the
    > wind of the internet about 6 hours before being rooted
    > by a romanian idiot.


    Thanks very much for the heads-up.

    As it happens, RH9 is the only relatively new distro I have CDs for.
    (I'm on dialup, so DL'ing other distros is a bit onerous.) But, thanks
    to your "JIT" warning, I shall immediately see about ordering a
    different distro on CD from some online outlet and will forestall the
    RH9 installation for the interim.

    Can you or anyone recommend a better distro for an HP Omnibook 900B
    laptop?

    I currently have only a CardBus Xircom combo modem and ethernet card
    (RBEM56G-100) for this machine -- do any distros support this card?
    Or, can a different combo card be recommended? Perhaps a
    recommendation for just a modem card?

    Thanks for any advice!

    (Email replies are welcome, if you wish. I apologize for the munged
    email address in my sig, but I think spam tastes like crap :) and am
    trying to avoid such. :-/ )

    BTW: I'm not running a server (that I know of... -- I *am* still using
    Windows... :) ). I'm looking for a decent Linux (or other Unix) for
    personal use -- usenet, email, webbrowsing, and offline
    personal-productivity stuff.

    > Is it only the brand name the part I don't like in
    > windows ? I would say not.


    I'm getting *so* tired of spending my limited time and energy on just
    *rebuilding* Windows machines. (I had to stick with Windows for some
    time due to a family reunion book project I was working on -- the apps
    I had available at the time were Windows-only, and the other
    contributors were also using Windows-only software. Thankfully, that
    seven-year project is now finally done -- so I can move on to a "real"
    OS. Hardware reliability remains a problem, though.)

    However, I also immensely dislike the ad-hoc and quite baroque Windows
    et al GUIs. I think that the HCI problem has not been adequately
    addressed on *any* of the popular platforms (to my knowledge). See my
    soon-to-be-posted thread titled "[OT] 'Pre-announcement' of
    Python-based 'computing appliance' project" for further info about my
    work-in-progress.

    Thanks again for the warning re RH9!


    off-to-CheapBytes'ly y'rs,
    Richard Hanson

    --
    sick<PERI0D>old<P0INT>fart<PIE-DEC0-SYMB0L>newsguy<MARK>com
     
    Richard Hanson, Sep 23, 2004
    #13
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