Confused

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Jim Scott, Apr 6, 2005.

  1. Jim Scott

    Jim Scott Guest

    As a total novice at creating a website I started with MS Publisher. When I
    got my new pc, it came with Frontpage 2003 and I created a site which
    eventually rendered in all the main browsers.
    I asked a question here and was harangued by some of you for using FP
    because of its wonky markup etc. I was advised not to use Javascript, or
    frames and got into no end of trouble for using forms as links.

    Being easily led/advised I rebuilt the whole site without using any of the
    above. It looks no better or worse to me and as far as I can tell runs no
    faster and takes up no significantly smaller webspace.

    Now I want to modify the site to display my various photo galleries by
    having a scrollable pane of thumbnails on the left/top/bottom of the screen
    with the enlarged picture in the remaining part of the screen. I know I
    could do this in an hour with FP using frames.

    Q.1 Was I hasty to abandon FP since I had it anyhow?
    Q.2 Why no Javascript?
    Q.3 Why no frames?
    Q.4 Is there a way of achieving my goal without frames?
    --
    Jim on Tyneside UK
    Remove X to email me.
    http://freespace.virgin.net/mr.jimscott/
     
    Jim Scott, Apr 6, 2005
    #1
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  2. Jim Scott wrote:

    > Now I want to modify the site to display my various photo galleries by
    > having a scrollable pane of thumbnails on the left/top/bottom of the
    > screen with the enlarged picture in the remaining part of the screen. I
    > know I could do this in an hour with FP using frames.
    >
    > Q.1 Was I hasty to abandon FP since I had it anyhow?


    No.

    > Q.2 Why no Javascript?


    There is nothing wrong with using JavaScript, its depending on JavaScript
    that is a problem. Many visitors have it turned off including GoogleBot
    (considered by many to be the most important visitor).

    > Q.3 Why no frames?


    http://www.allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?Problems_with_using_frames

    > Q.4 Is there a way of achieving my goal without frames?


    http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visufx.html#propdef-overflow

    --
    David Dorward <http://blog.dorward.me.uk/> <http://dorward.me.uk/>
    Home is where the ~/.bashrc is
     
    David Dorward, Apr 6, 2005
    #2
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  3. Jim Scott

    Nico Schuyt Guest

    Jim Scott wrote:
    > Now I want to modify the site to display my various photo galleries by
    > having a scrollable pane of thumbnails on the left/top/bottom of the
    > screen with the enlarged picture in the remaining part of the screen.
    > I know I could do this in an hour with FP using frames.


    > Q.1 Was I hasty to abandon FP since I had it anyhow?


    Yes. Nothing wrong with FP when used properly

    > Q.2 Why no Javascript?


    Like David said, no problem as long as primary functions like navigations
    are not involved.

    > Q.3 Why no frames?


    Problems like:
    orphaned pages (pages without menu)
    difficult to bookmark
    Impossible to refer to a certain page

    > Q.4 Is there a way of achieving my goal without frames?


    I tried to do it with divs and property overflow: auto. The result was not
    so good because thumbnails were jumping around when clicked. It can be
    solved by using JS to reposition the thumbnails. Quite complex and there
    were all kinds of bugs with the poorly supported overflow property.
    Better (if you know some php): http://www.porjes.com/butterflies/
    Disadvantage: complex and only a limited number of thumbnails.
    I think a frame for a photo gallery is acceptable

    --
    Nico
    http://www.nicoschuyt.nl
     
    Nico Schuyt, Apr 6, 2005
    #3
  4. Nico Schuyt wrote:

    >> Q.1 Was I hasty to abandon FP since I had it anyhow?


    > Yes. Nothing wrong with FP when used properly


    To use it properly you need to know how the underlying technologies work.
    Its almost certainly best to learn them separately from the foibles of
    Frontpage.

    >> Q.2 Why no Javascript?


    > Like David said, no problem as long as primary functions like navigations
    > are not involved.


    JavaScript can be used for primary functions, it just needs to fall back to
    something sensible.

    >> Q.3 Why no frames?


    > difficult to bookmark
    > Impossible to refer to a certain page


    > I think a frame for a photo gallery is acceptable


    Oh I like that image! I'll bookmark it. Then I'll send a link to my friend.
    Ooops.

    --
    David Dorward <http://blog.dorward.me.uk/> <http://dorward.me.uk/>
    Home is where the ~/.bashrc is
     
    David Dorward, Apr 6, 2005
    #4
  5. Jim Scott

    Jim Scott Guest

    On Wed, 6 Apr 2005 20:42:38 +0200, Nico Schuyt wrote:

    > Jim Scott wrote:
    >> Now I want to modify the site to display my various photo galleries by
    >> having a scrollable pane of thumbnails on the left/top/bottom of the
    >> screen with the enlarged picture in the remaining part of the screen.
    >> I know I could do this in an hour with FP using frames.

    >
    >> Q.1 Was I hasty to abandon FP since I had it anyhow?

    >
    > Yes. Nothing wrong with FP when used properly


    Can you define what I should NOT attempt to do with FP?(I know not to use
    WordArt. That's what got me to this point :eek:?)
    --
    Jim on Tyneside UK
    Remove X to email me.
    http://freespace.virgin.net/mr.jimscott/
     
    Jim Scott, Apr 6, 2005
    #5
  6. Jim Scott

    Nico Schuyt Guest

    David Dorward wrote:
    > Nico Schuyt wrote:


    >>> Q.2 Why no Javascript?


    >> Like David said, no problem as long as primary functions like
    >> navigations are not involved.


    > JavaScript can be used for primary functions, it just needs to fall
    > back to something sensible.


    That's what I meant to say. Thanks for correcting me :)

    >>> Q.3 Why no frames?

    >
    >> difficult to bookmark
    >> Impossible to refer to a certain page


    >> I think a frame for a photo gallery is acceptable


    > Oh I like that image! I'll bookmark it. Then I'll send a link to my
    > friend. Ooops.


    Hehehe, every decision in life is based on balancing positive and negative
    arguments :) I think the frame solution has more positive than negative
    properties.
    Not ideal, but no better solution found so far.

    --
    Nico
    http://www.nicoschuyt.nl
     
    Nico Schuyt, Apr 6, 2005
    #6
  7. Jim Scott

    Nico Schuyt Guest

    Jim Scott wrote:
    > Nico Schuyt wrote:
    >> Jim Scott wrote:


    >>> Q.1 Was I hasty to abandon FP since I had it anyhow?


    >> Yes. Nothing wrong with FP when used properly


    > Can you define what I should NOT attempt to do with FP?


    No HTML markup in WYSIWYG. Create a stylesheet and link that to the page. In
    FP: select the text and apply the style (the drop down box starting with
    'normal' left on top).
    Use FP for things like
    prototyping (a quick and dirty basis for a new site)
    spell checking,
    conversion of text to list and vice versa,
    creating a table out of plain text
    adding pictures and resize to get a first impression (resize later in
    picture editor)
    adding links
    creating frames :0
    Not ideal as editor, but I didn't find a better one.

    --
    Nico
    http://www.nicoschuyt.nl
     
    Nico Schuyt, Apr 6, 2005
    #7
  8. Jim Scott

    Jim Scott Guest

    On Wed, 6 Apr 2005 22:05:31 +0200, Nico Schuyt wrote:

    > Jim Scott wrote:
    >> Nico Schuyt wrote:
    >>> Jim Scott wrote:

    >
    >>>> Q.1 Was I hasty to abandon FP since I had it anyhow?

    >
    >>> Yes. Nothing wrong with FP when used properly

    >
    >> Can you define what I should NOT attempt to do with FP?

    >
    > No HTML markup in WYSIWYG. Create a stylesheet and link that to the page. In
    > FP: select the text and apply the style (the drop down box starting with
    > 'normal' left on top).
    > Use FP for things like
    > prototyping (a quick and dirty basis for a new site)
    > spell checking,
    > conversion of text to list and vice versa,
    > creating a table out of plain text
    > adding pictures and resize to get a first impression (resize later in
    > picture editor)
    > adding links
    > creating frames :0
    > Not ideal as editor, but I didn't find a better one.


    Thanks Nico.
    I can do all that, except frames, with Nvu (sister of Firefox) and it's all
    valid. I think I'll stay with that.
    I can set up frames with Notepad. What I could get FP to do automatically
    that I cannot figure out manually, is to click on a thumbnail in one frame
    and get the linked html to open in the other. Can you help?
    --
    Jim on Tyneside UK
    Remove X to email me.
    http://freespace.virgin.net/mr.jimscott/
     
    Jim Scott, Apr 6, 2005
    #8
  9. Jim Scott

    Toby Inkster Guest

    Toby Inkster, Apr 6, 2005
    #9
  10. > Nico Schuyt wrote:

    > > I think a frame for a photo gallery is acceptable


    And if I have 1024*768 display, images are 800*600 and I can't see them
    fully because of frame... is it nice? Images in galleries take lots of
    space. Thus is even more important to allow people to use their browser
    window fully.

    Yet to see a framed image gallery that makes any sence.

    --
    Lauri Raittila <http://www.iki.fi/lr> <http://www.iki.fi/zwak/fonts>
    Utrecht, NL.
    Support me, buy Opera:
    https://secure.bmtmicro.com/opera/buy-opera.html?AID=882173
     
    Lauri Raittila, Apr 7, 2005
    #10
  11. Jim Scott

    Andy Dingley Guest

    On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 16:17:49 GMT, Jim Scott <>
    wrote:

    >Q.4 Is there a way of achieving my goal without frames?


    Download and install one of the many free image gallery setups. No
    coding necessary.
     
    Andy Dingley, Apr 7, 2005
    #11
  12. Lauri Raittila wrote:
    >>>I think a frame for a photo gallery is acceptable

    > And if I have 1024*768 display, images are 800*600 and I can't see them
    > fully because of frame... is it nice? Images in galleries take lots of
    > space. Thus is even more important to allow people to use their browser
    > window fully.
    > Yet to see a framed image gallery that makes any sence.


    Sorry to interrupt another "but I can't see it" thread but, the thing I
    find the funniest in this group is that if I happen to run upon a site
    that does not look exactly right on my browser, I simply do what I need
    to to make it look right. Sometimes I increase the font size, sometimes
    I scroll a little, sometimes I change my browser size, sometimes I even
    open IE if I have to because of needed active X functionality.

    Sure I may not like the fact that I have to do something, but in the
    grand scheme of things, who gives a poop? It did not kill me. I am not
    so anal as to say "How dare they make me do something. I am leaving and
    never coming back." Do any of you really enjoy browsing or is
    complaining about it the part that makes it fun?

    (This is not to say I don't agree with what Lauri said, only that I
    don't put anywhere near the importance on it as others seem to on being
    slightly inconvenienced)

    Now back to our regularly scheduled program...

    Oh yea, 48 years old and I got my first earring (left is right right is
    wrong for a straight guy) in Myrtle Beach... Living the dream.....

    --
    -=tn=-
     
    Travis Newbury, Apr 7, 2005
    #12
  13. [OT] Re: Confused

    Travis Newbury wrote:

    > Oh yea, 48 years old and I got my first earring (left is right right is
    > wrong for a straight guy) in Myrtle Beach... Living the dream.....


    Right ear and straight male here. No problem. :)

    At 57, I doubt I'll ever get the other one pierced...

    --
    Blinky Linux Registered User 297263
    Who has implemented Usenet Solution #45933:
    Now killing all posts originating at Google Groups
    http://blinkynet.net/comp/ggfilters.html for rules
     
    Blinky the Shark, Apr 7, 2005
    #13
  14. Re: [OT] Re: Confused

    Blinky the Shark wrote:
    >>Oh yea, 48 years old and I got my first earring (left is right right is
    >>wrong for a straight guy) in Myrtle Beach... Living the dream.....

    > Right ear and straight male here. No problem. :)
    > At 57, I doubt I'll ever get the other one pierced...


    My 14 year old daughter and I were walking on the boardwalk and I asked
    her what she wanted to do. She said "Let's get a piercing" I thought
    for a second and said "ok" she was shocked, and back at the hotel room,
    immediately on AOL-IM telling her friends how "cool" her dad was. It
    was worth it.

    But I agree, the other ear will stay a virgin...


    --
    -=tn=-
     
    Travis Newbury, Apr 7, 2005
    #14
  15. Re: [OT] Re: Confused

    Travis Newbury wrote:

    > Blinky the Shark wrote:


    >>>Oh yea, 48 years old and I got my first earring (left is right right
    >>>is wrong for a straight guy) in Myrtle Beach... Living the
    >>>dream.....


    >> Right ear and straight male here. No problem. :) At 57, I doubt
    >> I'll ever get the other one pierced...


    > My 14 year old daughter and I were walking on the boardwalk and I
    > asked her what she wanted to do. She said "Let's get a piercing" I
    > thought for a second and said "ok" she was shocked, and back at the
    > hotel room, immediately on AOL-IM telling her friends how "cool" her
    > dad was. It was worth it.


    At pretty close to that age (13 or 14), my daughter asked when I was
    going to get the other one pierced. You've got an easy one. Keep her.
    :)

    --
    Blinky Linux Registered User 297263
    Who has implemented Usenet Solution #45933:
    Now killing all posts originating at Google Groups
    http://blinkynet.net/comp/ggfilters.html for rules
     
    Blinky the Shark, Apr 7, 2005
    #15
  16. Jim Scott

    kchayka Guest

    Travis Newbury wrote:
    >
    > Sorry to interrupt another "but I can't see it" thread but, the thing I
    > find the funniest in this group is that if I happen to run upon a site
    > that does not look exactly right on my browser, I simply do what I need
    > to to make it look right. Sometimes I increase the font size, sometimes
    > I scroll a little, sometimes I change my browser size,


    Hey, aren't you the one who was whining in another thread about flexible
    layouts because you always use full-size windows?

    --
    Reply email address is a bottomless spam bucket.
    Please reply to the group so everyone can share.
     
    kchayka, Apr 7, 2005
    #16
  17. Jim Scott

    Nico Schuyt Guest

    Lauri Raittila wrote:
    >> Nico Schuyt wrote:


    >>> I think a frame for a photo gallery is acceptable


    For pages like the threads in Google groups too.

    > And if I have 1024*768 display, images are 800*600 and I can't see
    > them fully because of frame... is it nice?


    No. But one shouldn't use such large pictures.

    > Images in galleries take
    > lots of space.


    Images take always and everywhere lots of space.

    > Thus is even more important to allow people to use
    > their browser window fully.


    An average website has a menu column on the left or on top taking 20-30% of
    the screen. No difference compared with a frame for the thumbs.

    > Yet to see a framed image gallery that makes any sence.


    Yet to see an alternative with a better balance of positive and negative
    properties.

    --
    Nico
    http://www.nicoschuyt.nl
     
    Nico Schuyt, Apr 7, 2005
    #17
  18. Jim Scott

    Nico Schuyt Guest

    Jim Scott wrote:
    > Nico Schuyt wrote:


    >>> Can you define what I should NOT attempt to do with FP?


    >> No HTML markup in WYSIWYG. Create a stylesheet and link that to the
    >> page. In FP: select the text and apply the style (the drop down box
    >> starting with 'normal' left on top).
    >> Use FP for things like
    >> prototyping (a quick and dirty basis for a new site)
    >> spell checking,
    >> conversion of text to list and vice versa,
    >> creating a table out of plain text
    >> adding pictures and resize to get a first impression (resize
    >> later in picture editor)
    >> adding links
    >> creating frames :0
    >> Not ideal as editor, but I didn't find a better one.

    >
    > I can do all that, except frames, with Nvu (sister of Firefox) and
    > it's all valid. I think I'll stay with that.


    Just downloaded the latest version (0.9 for Win). Very promising.
    Seems to have some bugs though:
    - I can't specify ";" as delimiter in the conversion of text to tables
    - After applying a class to a paragraph and pressing the Enter key, the
    class is duplicated in the new paragraph
    - In 'Preferences' chosen for 'CSS instead of HTML'. When creating a two
    row/two column table however I had to remove all the HTML-attributes in the
    dialogue. Result:
    <table style="text-align: left; width: 100%;" border="1">
    <tbody>
    <tr>
    <td align="undefined"
    valign="undefined"></td>
    <td align="undefined"
    valign="undefined"></td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
    <td align="undefined"
    valign="undefined"></td>
    <td align="undefined"
    valign="undefined"></td>
    </tr>
    </tbody>
    </table>

    > I can set up frames with Notepad.


    I can set up *everything* in Notepad :)

    > What I could get FP to do
    > automatically that I cannot figure out manually, is to click on a
    > thumbnail in one frame and get the linked html to open in the other.
    > Can you help?


    Use the target attribute:
    <base target="xxx"> in the head section
    or <a href="start.htm" target="xxx">
    Replace xxx with the name of the target frame

    --
    Nico
    http://www.nicoschuyt.nl
     
    Nico Schuyt, Apr 7, 2005
    #18
  19. Jim Scott

    Jim Scott Guest

    Re: [OT] Re: Confused

    On 7 Apr 2005 01:12:46 GMT, Blinky the Shark wrote:

    > Travis Newbury wrote:
    >
    >> Oh yea, 48 years old and I got my first earring (left is right right is
    >> wrong for a straight guy) in Myrtle Beach... Living the dream.....

    >
    > Right ear and straight male here. No problem. :)
    >
    > At 57, I doubt I'll ever get the other one pierced...


    Me too got one the day *before* I retired.
    It make the final prizegiving day in the school I left, go with a swing :eek:)
    --
    Jim on Tyneside UK
    Remove X to email me.
    http://freespace.virgin.net/mr.jimscott/
     
    Jim Scott, Apr 7, 2005
    #19
  20. Re: [OT] Re: Confused

    Jim Scott wrote:
    >>>Oh yea, 48 years old and I got my first earring (left is right right is
    >>>wrong for a straight guy) in Myrtle Beach... Living the dream.....

    >>Right ear and straight male here. No problem. :)
    >>At 57, I doubt I'll ever get the other one pierced...

    > Me too got one the day *before* I retired.
    > It make the final prizegiving day in the school I left, go with a swing :eek:)


    We are rebels!

    --
    -=tn=-
     
    Travis Newbury, Apr 7, 2005
    #20
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