Confusing, desparate MySQLdb problems...

Discussion in 'Python' started by stopchuckingstuff, Jan 16, 2010.

  1. I have installed MySQLdb on Mac OSX 10.6.2, and have it working when
    running on my system in IDLE and in terminal, however encounter
    continual problems when running it through Apache.

    When trying to import the module, it gives me this error:

    <type 'exceptions.ImportError'>: /Library/WebServer/.python-eggs/
    MySQL_python-1.2.3c1-py2.6-macosx-10.3-fat.egg-tmp/_mysql.so: no
    appropriate 64-bit architecture (see "man python" for running in 32-
    bit mode)

    Which I just don't understand, as it works perfectly in IDLE?!

    I am running Snow Leopard in 64bit mode, but I don't see how this
    could be the problem when I have already run the module successfully.

    Please help!

    Thanks very much,
    Sam
     
    stopchuckingstuff, Jan 16, 2010
    #1
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  2. stopchuckingstuff

    Ned Deily Guest

    In article
    <>,
    stopchuckingstuff <> wrote:

    > I have installed MySQLdb on Mac OSX 10.6.2, and have it working when
    > running on my system in IDLE and in terminal, however encounter
    > continual problems when running it through Apache.
    >
    > When trying to import the module, it gives me this error:
    >
    > <type 'exceptions.ImportError'>: /Library/WebServer/.python-eggs/
    > MySQL_python-1.2.3c1-py2.6-macosx-10.3-fat.egg-tmp/_mysql.so: no
    > appropriate 64-bit architecture (see "man python" for running in 32-
    > bit mode)
    >
    > Which I just don't understand, as it works perfectly in IDLE?!
    >
    > I am running Snow Leopard in 64bit mode, but I don't see how this
    > could be the problem when I have already run the module successfully.


    Most likely possibility: you've installed another Python on 10.6,
    probably from python.org, which only runs in 32-bit mode while Apache is
    using the Apple-supplied Python 2.6.1 which, by default, runs in 64-bit
    mode. From the terminal, do:

    which python

    If it's not /usr/bin/python, you're using another Python in the
    terminal. You'll need to install a 64-bit version of the MySQLdb and
    the MySQL client libraries for the Apple-supplied Python or modify the
    Apache setup to either force 32-bit mode for the Apple-supplied Python
    or use the other Python (from /usr/local/bin/python2.6 or wherever).

    --
    Ned Deily,
     
    Ned Deily, Jan 17, 2010
    #2
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  3. On Jan 17, 12:14 am, Ned Deily <> wrote:
    > In article
    > <>,
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >  stopchuckingstuff <> wrote:
    > > I have installed MySQLdb on Mac OSX 10.6.2, and have it working when
    > > running on my system in IDLE and in terminal, however encounter
    > > continual problems when running it through Apache.

    >
    > > When trying to import the module, it gives me this error:

    >
    > > <type 'exceptions.ImportError'>: /Library/WebServer/.python-eggs/
    > > MySQL_python-1.2.3c1-py2.6-macosx-10.3-fat.egg-tmp/_mysql.so: no
    > > appropriate 64-bit architecture (see "man python" for running in 32-
    > > bit mode)

    >
    > > Which I  just don't understand, as it works perfectly in IDLE?!

    >
    > > I am running Snow Leopard in 64bit mode, but I don't see how this
    > > could be the problem when I have already run the module successfully.

    >
    > Most likely possibility: you've installed another Python on 10.6,
    > probably from python.org, which only runs in 32-bit mode while Apache is
    > using the Apple-supplied Python 2.6.1 which, by default, runs in 64-bit
    > mode.  From the terminal, do:
    >
    > which python
    >
    > If it's not /usr/bin/python, you're using another Python in the
    > terminal.  You'll need to install a 64-bit version of the MySQLdb and
    > the MySQL client libraries for the Apple-supplied Python or modify the
    > Apache setup to either force 32-bit mode for the Apple-supplied Python
    > or use the other Python (from /usr/local/bin/python2.6 or wherever).
    >
    > --
    >  Ned Deily,
    >  


    Thanks very much - I think this must be the problem (which python
    produces some long path to Python 2.6). Ideally, I'd like to change
    Apache's path to python as I had such problems installing MySQLdb -
    would you have any idea how to do it?

    Thanks again for you help
    Sam
     
    stopchuckingstuff, Jan 17, 2010
    #3
  4. On Jan 17, 12:14 am, Ned Deily <> wrote:
    > In article
    > <>,
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >  stopchuckingstuff <> wrote:
    > > I have installed MySQLdb on Mac OSX 10.6.2, and have it working when
    > > running on my system in IDLE and in terminal, however encounter
    > > continual problems when running it through Apache.

    >
    > > When trying to import the module, it gives me this error:

    >
    > > <type 'exceptions.ImportError'>: /Library/WebServer/.python-eggs/
    > > MySQL_python-1.2.3c1-py2.6-macosx-10.3-fat.egg-tmp/_mysql.so: no
    > > appropriate 64-bit architecture (see "man python" for running in 32-
    > > bit mode)

    >
    > > Which I  just don't understand, as it works perfectly in IDLE?!

    >
    > > I am running Snow Leopard in 64bit mode, but I don't see how this
    > > could be the problem when I have already run the module successfully.

    >
    > Most likely possibility: you've installed another Python on 10.6,
    > probably from python.org, which only runs in 32-bit mode while Apache is
    > using the Apple-supplied Python 2.6.1 which, by default, runs in 64-bit
    > mode.  From the terminal, do:
    >
    > which python
    >
    > If it's not /usr/bin/python, you're using another Python in the
    > terminal.  You'll need to install a 64-bit version of the MySQLdb and
    > the MySQL client libraries for the Apple-supplied Python or modify the
    > Apache setup to either force 32-bit mode for the Apple-supplied Python
    > or use the other Python (from /usr/local/bin/python2.6 or wherever).
    >
    > --
    >  Ned Deily,
    >  


    Thanks very much - I think this must be the problem (which python
    produces some long path to Python 2.6). Ideally, I'd like to change
    Apache's path to python as I had such problems installing MySQLdb -
    would you have any idea how to do it?

    Thanks again for you help
    Sam
     
    stopchuckingstuff, Jan 17, 2010
    #4
  5. On Jan 17, 12:14 am, Ned Deily <> wrote:
    > In article
    > <>,
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >  stopchuckingstuff <> wrote:
    > > I have installed MySQLdb on Mac OSX 10.6.2, and have it working when
    > > running on my system in IDLE and in terminal, however encounter
    > > continual problems when running it through Apache.

    >
    > > When trying to import the module, it gives me this error:

    >
    > > <type 'exceptions.ImportError'>: /Library/WebServer/.python-eggs/
    > > MySQL_python-1.2.3c1-py2.6-macosx-10.3-fat.egg-tmp/_mysql.so: no
    > > appropriate 64-bit architecture (see "man python" for running in 32-
    > > bit mode)

    >
    > > Which I  just don't understand, as it works perfectly in IDLE?!

    >
    > > I am running Snow Leopard in 64bit mode, but I don't see how this
    > > could be the problem when I have already run the module successfully.

    >
    > Most likely possibility: you've installed another Python on 10.6,
    > probably from python.org, which only runs in 32-bit mode while Apache is
    > using the Apple-supplied Python 2.6.1 which, by default, runs in 64-bit
    > mode.  From the terminal, do:
    >
    > which python
    >
    > If it's not /usr/bin/python, you're using another Python in the
    > terminal.  You'll need to install a 64-bit version of the MySQLdb and
    > the MySQL client libraries for the Apple-supplied Python or modify the
    > Apache setup to either force 32-bit mode for the Apple-supplied Python
    > or use the other Python (from /usr/local/bin/python2.6 or wherever).
    >
    > --
    >  Ned Deily,
    >  


    Sorry for the repeat posts, but would it be to do with the first line
    of all my scripts - #!/usr/bin/env python?

    Thanks
    Sam
     
    stopchuckingstuff, Jan 17, 2010
    #5
  6. On Jan 17, 12:14 am, Ned Deily <> wrote:
    > In article
    > <>,
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >  stopchuckingstuff <> wrote:
    > > I have installed MySQLdb on Mac OSX 10.6.2, and have it working when
    > > running on my system in IDLE and in terminal, however encounter
    > > continual problems when running it through Apache.

    >
    > > When trying to import the module, it gives me this error:

    >
    > > <type 'exceptions.ImportError'>: /Library/WebServer/.python-eggs/
    > > MySQL_python-1.2.3c1-py2.6-macosx-10.3-fat.egg-tmp/_mysql.so: no
    > > appropriate 64-bit architecture (see "man python" for running in 32-
    > > bit mode)

    >
    > > Which I  just don't understand, as it works perfectly in IDLE?!

    >
    > > I am running Snow Leopard in 64bit mode, but I don't see how this
    > > could be the problem when I have already run the module successfully.

    >
    > Most likely possibility: you've installed another Python on 10.6,
    > probably from python.org, which only runs in 32-bit mode while Apache is
    > using the Apple-supplied Python 2.6.1 which, by default, runs in 64-bit
    > mode.  From the terminal, do:
    >
    > which python
    >
    > If it's not /usr/bin/python, you're using another Python in the
    > terminal.  You'll need to install a 64-bit version of the MySQLdb and
    > the MySQL client libraries for the Apple-supplied Python or modify the
    > Apache setup to either force 32-bit mode for the Apple-supplied Python
    > or use the other Python (from /usr/local/bin/python2.6 or wherever).
    >
    > --
    >  Ned Deily,
    >  


    Sorry for the repeat posts, but would it be to do with the first line
    of all my scripts - #!/usr/bin/env python?

    Thanks
    Sam
     
    stopchuckingstuff, Jan 17, 2010
    #6
  7. stopchuckingstuff

    Ned Deily Guest

    In article
    <>,
    stopchuckingstuff <> wrote:
    > On Jan 17, 12:14 am, Ned Deily <> wrote:
    > > In article
    > > <>,
    > >  stopchuckingstuff <> wrote:
    > > > I have installed MySQLdb on Mac OSX 10.6.2, and have it working when
    > > > running on my system in IDLE and in terminal, however encounter
    > > > continual problems when running it through Apache.
    > > > When trying to import the module, it gives me this error:
    > > > <type 'exceptions.ImportError'>: /Library/WebServer/.python-eggs/
    > > > MySQL_python-1.2.3c1-py2.6-macosx-10.3-fat.egg-tmp/_mysql.so: no
    > > > appropriate 64-bit architecture (see "man python" for running in 32-
    > > > bit mode) [...]

    > > Most likely possibility: you've installed another Python on 10.6,
    > > probably from python.org, which only runs in 32-bit mode while Apache is
    > > using the Apple-supplied Python 2.6.1 which, by default, runs in 64-bit
    > > mode. [...]

    > Thanks very much - I think this must be the problem (which python
    > produces some long path to Python 2.6). Ideally, I'd like to change
    > Apache's path to python as I had such problems installing MySQLdb -
    > would you have any idea how to do it?

    [...]
    > Sorry for the repeat posts, but would it be to do with the first line
    > of all my scripts - #!/usr/bin/env python?


    /usr/bin/env python will cause the first command named python in the
    process's execution path ($PATH) to be used. Apache is probably not
    running under your user name and does not have the PATH modification in
    your .bash_profile to stick that long path to the python.org Python 2.6
    bin directory at the front of $PATH. Rather than changing Apache's
    startup, the easier solution would probably be to modify your scripts to
    point at the desired python. By default, the python.org installers put
    a link to that python in /usr/local/bin so it may be easier to use a
    shebang line like:

    #!/usr/local/bin/python
    or
    #!/usr/local/bin/python2.6

    --
    Ned Deily,
     
    Ned Deily, Jan 17, 2010
    #7
  8. On Jan 17, 1:54 am, Ned Deily <> wrote:
    > In article
    > <>,
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >  stopchuckingstuff <> wrote:
    > > On Jan 17, 12:14 am, Ned Deily <> wrote:
    > > > In article
    > > > <>,
    > > >  stopchuckingstuff <> wrote:
    > > > > I have installed MySQLdb on Mac OSX 10.6.2, and have it working when
    > > > > running on my system in IDLE and in terminal, however encounter
    > > > > continual problems when running it through Apache.
    > > > > When trying to import the module, it gives me this error:
    > > > > <type 'exceptions.ImportError'>: /Library/WebServer/.python-eggs/
    > > > > MySQL_python-1.2.3c1-py2.6-macosx-10.3-fat.egg-tmp/_mysql.so: no
    > > > > appropriate 64-bit architecture (see "man python" for running in 32-
    > > > > bit mode) [...]
    > > > Most likely possibility: you've installed another Python on 10.6,
    > > > probably from python.org, which only runs in 32-bit mode while Apache is
    > > > using the Apple-supplied Python 2.6.1 which, by default, runs in 64-bit
    > > > mode. [...]

    > > Thanks very much - I think this must be the problem (which python
    > > produces some long path to Python 2.6). Ideally, I'd like to change
    > > Apache's path to python as I had such problems installing MySQLdb -
    > > would you have any idea how to do it?

    > [...]
    > > Sorry for the repeat posts, but would it be to do with the first line
    > > of all my scripts - #!/usr/bin/env python?

    >
    > /usr/bin/env python will cause the first command named python in the
    > process's execution path ($PATH) to be used.  Apache is probably not
    > running under your user name and does not have the PATH modification in
    > your .bash_profile to stick that long path to the python.org Python 2.6
    > bin directory at the front of $PATH.   Rather than changing Apache's
    > startup, the easier solution would probably be to modify your scripts to
    > point at the desired python.  By default, the python.org installers put
    > a link to that python in /usr/local/bin so it may be easier to use a
    > shebang line like:
    >
    > #!/usr/local/bin/python
    > or
    > #!/usr/local/bin/python2.6
    >
    > --
    >  Ned Deily,
    >  


    This just gets even more confusing!

    I used a shebang line:

    #!/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.6/bin/python

    which i got from which python in terminal, and now i get this error
    when trying to import MySQLdb:

    <type 'exceptions.ImportError'>: No module named pkg_resources

    How!? I don't get that error when using that same version of python in
    IDLE...

    What's going on?!

    Many thanks for your ongoing assistance!
    Sam
     
    stopchuckingstuff, Jan 17, 2010
    #8
  9. On Jan 17, 1:54 am, Ned Deily <> wrote:
    > In article
    > <>,
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >  stopchuckingstuff <> wrote:
    > > On Jan 17, 12:14 am, Ned Deily <> wrote:
    > > > In article
    > > > <>,
    > > >  stopchuckingstuff <> wrote:
    > > > > I have installed MySQLdb on Mac OSX 10.6.2, and have it working when
    > > > > running on my system in IDLE and in terminal, however encounter
    > > > > continual problems when running it through Apache.
    > > > > When trying to import the module, it gives me this error:
    > > > > <type 'exceptions.ImportError'>: /Library/WebServer/.python-eggs/
    > > > > MySQL_python-1.2.3c1-py2.6-macosx-10.3-fat.egg-tmp/_mysql.so: no
    > > > > appropriate 64-bit architecture (see "man python" for running in 32-
    > > > > bit mode) [...]
    > > > Most likely possibility: you've installed another Python on 10.6,
    > > > probably from python.org, which only runs in 32-bit mode while Apache is
    > > > using the Apple-supplied Python 2.6.1 which, by default, runs in 64-bit
    > > > mode. [...]

    > > Thanks very much - I think this must be the problem (which python
    > > produces some long path to Python 2.6). Ideally, I'd like to change
    > > Apache's path to python as I had such problems installing MySQLdb -
    > > would you have any idea how to do it?

    > [...]
    > > Sorry for the repeat posts, but would it be to do with the first line
    > > of all my scripts - #!/usr/bin/env python?

    >
    > /usr/bin/env python will cause the first command named python in the
    > process's execution path ($PATH) to be used.  Apache is probably not
    > running under your user name and does not have the PATH modification in
    > your .bash_profile to stick that long path to the python.org Python 2.6
    > bin directory at the front of $PATH.   Rather than changing Apache's
    > startup, the easier solution would probably be to modify your scripts to
    > point at the desired python.  By default, the python.org installers put
    > a link to that python in /usr/local/bin so it may be easier to use a
    > shebang line like:
    >
    > #!/usr/local/bin/python
    > or
    > #!/usr/local/bin/python2.6
    >
    > --
    >  Ned Deily,
    >  


    What's even worse, is that importing pkg_resources works fine in
    terminal, and the sys.paths in each are the same!?!
     
    stopchuckingstuff, Jan 17, 2010
    #9
  10. stopchuckingstuff

    Ned Deily Guest

    In article
    <>,
    stopchuckingstuff <> wrote:
    [...]
    > This just gets even more confusing!
    >
    > I used a shebang line:
    >
    > #!/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.6/bin/python
    >
    > which i got from which python in terminal, and now i get this error
    > when trying to import MySQLdb:
    >
    > <type 'exceptions.ImportError'>: No module named pkg_resources
    >
    > How!? I don't get that error when using that same version of python in
    > IDLE...
    >
    > What's going on?!


    Sounds like setuptools is not being found on sys.path. And, judging
    from your earlier post, it appears that sys.path when running under
    Apache includes /Library/WebServer/.python-eggs. Perhaps you need to
    ensure setuptools is installed there. That wouldn't normally be on the
    python's sys.path when running from the terminal.

    But I realized after my last response that I should have asked how you
    were using Python with Apache: presumably with mod_wsgi or, possibly,
    mod_python. In either case, the configurations are more complex and
    something I have little experience with so I should probably point you
    elsewhere. For mod_wsgi, Graham Dumpleton offers exemplary thorough
    documentation here:

    http://code.google.com/p/modwsgi/
    http://code.google.com/p/modwsgi/wiki/InstallationOnMacOSX
    http://code.google.com/p/modwsgi/wiki/WhereToGetHelp

    Good luck.

    --
    Ned Deily,
     
    Ned Deily, Jan 17, 2010
    #10
  11. On Jan 17, 4:01 am, Ned Deily <> wrote:
    > In article
    > <>, stopchuckingstuff <> wrote:
    >
    > [...]
    >
    > > This just gets even more confusing!

    >
    > > I used a shebang line:

    >
    > > #!/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.6/bin/python

    >
    > > which i got from which python in terminal, and now i get this error
    > > when trying to import MySQLdb:

    >
    > > <type 'exceptions.ImportError'>: No module named pkg_resources

    >
    > > How!? I don't get that error when using that same version of python in
    > > IDLE...

    >
    > > What's going on?!

    >
    > Sounds like setuptools is not being found on sys.path.  And, judging
    > from your earlier post, it appears that sys.path when running under
    > Apache includes /Library/WebServer/.python-eggs.  Perhaps you need to
    > ensure setuptools is installed there.  That wouldn't normally be on the
    > python's sys.path when running from the terminal.
    >
    > But I realized after my last response that I should have asked how you
    > were using Python with Apache: presumably with mod_wsgi or, possibly,
    > mod_python.  In either case, the configurations are more complex and
    > something I have little experience with so I should probably point you
    > elsewhere.  For mod_wsgi, Graham Dumpleton offers exemplary thorough
    > documentation here:
    >
    > http://code.google.com/p/modwsgi/ht...code.google.com/p/modwsgi/wiki/WhereToGetHelp
    >
    > Good luck.
    >
    > --
    >  Ned Deily,
    >  


    I'm not using either mod_wsgi or mod_python, I just edited httpd.conf.

    You're right about setuptools - imports in terminal, not in cgi.
    however, the path to it (/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/
    2.6/lib/python2.6/site-packages/setuptools-0.6c11-py2.6.egg)
    is present in both sys.paths - as i said, both sys.paths are
    identical.

    And from printing the sys.paths, /Library/WebServer/.python-eggs
    doesn't appear, I think it just uses it as a temporary folder to unzip
    the python eggs into.

    What I don't understand is if the path is there, why doesn't it find
    the module?

    Thanks
    Sam
     
    stopchuckingstuff, Jan 17, 2010
    #11
  12. stopchuckingstuff

    Ned Deily Guest

    In article
    <>,
    stopchuckingstuff <> wrote:
    > I'm not using either mod_wsgi or mod_python, I just edited httpd.conf.
    >
    > You're right about setuptools - imports in terminal, not in cgi.
    > however, the path to it (/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/
    > 2.6/lib/python2.6/site-packages/setuptools-0.6c11-py2.6.egg)
    > is present in both sys.paths - as i said, both sys.paths are
    > identical.
    >
    > And from printing the sys.paths, /Library/WebServer/.python-eggs
    > doesn't appear, I think it just uses it as a temporary folder to unzip
    > the python eggs into.


    >From your original post:
    > When trying to import the module, it gives me this error:
    >
    > <type 'exceptions.ImportError'>: /Library/WebServer/.python-eggs/
    > MySQL_python-1.2.3c1-py2.6-macosx-10.3-fat.egg-tmp/_mysql.so: no
    > appropriate 64-bit architecture (see "man python" for running in 32-
    > bit mode)


    so it appears that the .python-eggs directory is on sys.path. But I
    don't know where that directory is coming from in the first place.
    Something you manually created?

    >
    > What I don't understand is if the path is there, why doesn't it find
    > the module?


    Perhaps it is just a permissions problem since Apache is probably
    running under a different user name. Check the owner/group and
    permissions of the various module directories and files. Make sure the
    directories and .so files have at least r-x and the python files at
    least r-- across the board.

    --
    Ned Deily,
     
    Ned Deily, Jan 17, 2010
    #12
  13. On Jan 17, 5:52 pm, Ned Deily <> wrote:
    > In article
    > <>,
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >  stopchuckingstuff <> wrote:
    > > I'm not using either mod_wsgi or mod_python, I just edited httpd.conf.

    >
    > > You're right about setuptools - imports in terminal, not in cgi.
    > > however, the path to it (/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/
    > > 2.6/lib/python2.6/site-packages/setuptools-0.6c11-py2.6.egg)
    > > is present in both sys.paths - as i said, both sys.paths are
    > > identical.

    >
    > > And from printing the sys.paths, /Library/WebServer/.python-eggs
    > > doesn't appear, I think it just uses it as a temporary folder to unzip
    > > the python eggs into.
    > >From your original post:
    > > When trying to import the module, it gives me this error:

    >
    > > <type 'exceptions.ImportError'>: /Library/WebServer/.python-eggs/
    > > MySQL_python-1.2.3c1-py2.6-macosx-10.3-fat.egg-tmp/_mysql.so: no
    > > appropriate 64-bit architecture (see "man python" for running in 32-
    > > bit mode)

    >
    > so it appears that the .python-eggs directory is on sys.path.  But I
    > don't know where that directory is coming from in the first place.  
    > Something you manually created?
    >
    >
    >
    > > What I don't understand is if the path is there, why doesn't it find
    > > the module?

    >
    > Perhaps it is just a permissions problem since Apache is probably
    > running under a different user name.  Check the owner/group and
    > permissions of the various module directories and files. Make sure the
    > directories and .so files have at least r-x and the python files at
    > least r-- across the board.
    >
    > --
    >  Ned Deily,
    >  


    Of course! how did i not realise that... it wasn't the python-eggs
    directory, but the directory containing the modules (namely /Library/
    Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.6/lib/python2.6/site-packages)
    - i changed the permissions, and its all sorted!

    Thank you so much!!
    Sam
     
    stopchuckingstuff, Jan 17, 2010
    #13
  14. stopchuckingstuff

    Ned Deily Guest

    In article
    <>,
    stopchuckingstuff <> wrote:
    > On Jan 17, 5:52 pm, Ned Deily <> wrote:
    > > In article
    > > <>,
    > > > What I don't understand is if the path is there, why doesn't it find
    > > > the module?

    > > Perhaps it is just a permissions problem since Apache is probably
    > > running under a different user name.  Check the owner/group and
    > > permissions of the various module directories and files. Make sure the
    > > directories and .so files have at least r-x and the python files at
    > > least r-- across the board.

    > Of course! how did i not realise that... it wasn't the python-eggs
    > directory, but the directory containing the modules (namely /Library/
    > Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.6/lib/python2.6/site-packages)
    > - i changed the permissions, and its all sorted!


    Yay! Sorry, I should have thought of permissions earlier: I've been
    bitten by that more than once. It's an important thing to keep in mind
    when encountering missing imports: always check file system permissions
    first.

    --
    Ned Deily,
     
    Ned Deily, Jan 17, 2010
    #14
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