CSS Button Designer

J

Joe Barta

Hello alt.html!

Long time no see ;-)

I made a little widget, CSS Button Designer. It's a tool for applying
styles and optional javascript mouseover actions to simple buttons.
It's pretty comprehensive and user-friendly.

I'm very much open to feedback from this group. It's good, it sucks,
this is right, this is wrong, this should be that, etc.

You can find it at:
http://www.pagetutor.com/button_designer/

I also made it into a distributable (HTA) application. Below is the
setup for it...
http://www.pagetutor.com/button_designer/CBD_Setup.exe
I'd be interested in any thoughts on that as well.

Joe Barta
 
D

dorayme

Joe Barta said:
I made a little widget, CSS Button Designer. It's a tool for applying
styles and optional javascript mouseover actions to simple buttons.
It's pretty comprehensive and user-friendly.

I'm very much open to feedback from this group. It's good, it sucks,
this is right, this is wrong, this should be that, etc.

You can find it at:
http://www.pagetutor.com/button_designer/

Does not work well on Mac Safari, the update buttons on sizes for
buttons, the colour updates etc. do not reliably do anything.

But the problem may be deep. You may have been preoccupied by
your club activities and everyone knows that members of clubs
such as yours (He-man Woman Haters Club) cannot do two things at
once.
 
J

Joe Barta

dorayme said:
Does not work well on Mac Safari, the update buttons on sizes for
buttons, the colour updates etc. do not reliably do anything.

I tested it on 3 Windows browsers... IE, Firefox and Opera. Seems fine
on the first two... in Opera there are a few minor display issues
(so few people actually use Opera I let it slide rather than try to
figure out what's up). It's a good bit of juggling in that widget...
I'm happy if it works great for *most* people.

Thanks for looking at it.

Joe Barta
 
J

Joe Barta

Hywel said:
Crumbs! Didn't you used to be famous!? How are things?

Famous... those were the days. You know, the first time I wrote
anything was over TEN years ago? When IE3 was the "sorry I'm late to
the party" web browsing wonder that frustrated the hell out of all of
us.

Things are very good.

Joe Barta
 
R

Rob McAninch

Long time no see ;-)

Howdy! Hope life's been treating you good.

I only toyed with it a little in Firefox 1.5 on Win. Didn't run
into any problems.
I also made it into a distributable (HTA) application. Below
is the setup for it...
http://www.pagetutor.com/button_designer/CBD_Setup.exe
I'd be interested in any thoughts on that as well.

Installed okay. Except when I click in the area to copy the code,
it automaticaly selects everything. I'm guessing that's by design
but I don't know if I like it. Just too accustomed to selecting
myself I suppose.

I did see some empty elements end up in the final code, e.g. a
title attribute when no title text was given. Doesn't really hurt
anything but perhaps that shouldn't be done.

Hm, I don't suppose you can make the PageTutor.com link use my
default web browser (Firefox) instead of IE?
 
J

Joe Barta

Rob said:
Installed okay. Except when I click in the area to copy the code,
it automaticaly selects everything. I'm guessing that's by design
but I don't know if I like it. Just too accustomed to selecting
myself I suppose.

Yes, it's by design. Seemed like a good thing to do at the time. It
could go both ways I suppose.
I did see some empty elements end up in the final code, e.g. a
title attribute when no title text was given. Doesn't really hurt
anything but perhaps that shouldn't be done.

For all practical purposes it does no harm, but you're right, it
should be avoided if possible.
Hm, I don't suppose you can make the PageTutor.com link use my
default web browser (Firefox) instead of IE?

Unfortunately no. In an hta, clicking an outside link brings up
Explorer, period. I found that very annoying myself and looked hard
for a way around that. Nothing. Oh well.

Another frustrating limitation of an hta is the inability to open/save
to disk. I understand security concerns and all, but it's still too
bad a safe way has not been found.

Joe Barta
 
J

Jose

In an hta, clicking an outside link brings up
Explorer, period. I found that very annoying myself and looked hard
for a way around that. Nothing. Oh well.

What's an HTA? Why does it only bring up IE? (Microsoft product?)

Jose
 
J

Joe Barta

Jose said:
What's an HTA? Why does it only bring up IE? (Microsoft product?)

<cranky>

http://www.google.com/search?q=hta

Ain't Google a wonderful thing?

</cranky>

HTA == HTML Application. A twist on a html document. You can make one
easily by changing the extension from .html to .hta It then becomes an
"application" that uses IE components. It's kinda neat but kinda
limited. For more, visit Microsoft's documentation above.

Why does it only bring up IE? Damn good question. I'd like to hear the
answer to that one myself.

Joe Barta
 
D

Dylan Parry

Pondering the eternal question of "Hobnobs or Rich Tea?", Joe Barta
finally proclaimed:
Why does it only bring up IE? Damn good question. I'd like to hear the
answer to that one myself.
It then becomes an "application" that uses IE components.

As it is using "IE components", surely it makes sense that links from
the application would only open within IE?
 
J

Joe Barta

Dylan said:
Pondering the eternal question of "Hobnobs or Rich Tea?", Joe
Barta finally proclaimed:



As it is using "IE components", surely it makes sense that links
from the application would only open within IE?

Well, that's the easy answer. And like many easy answers it might not
be the correct one. Many times I have found that my simple take on a
situation has been horribly muddied up by someone that knew a few
things that I didn't know or considered a few things that I didn't
consider. So, on that basis, I'll hold off on answering myself ;-)

Joe Barta
 
J

Jose

http://www.google.com/search?q=hta
Ain't Google a wonderful thing?

</cranky>

HTA == HTML Application. A twist on a html document. You can make one
easily by changing the extension from .html to .hta It then becomes an
"application" that uses IE components. It's kinda neat but kinda
limited. For more, visit Microsoft's documentation above.

Hmmm. From the docs:
The power to build HTML Applications (HTAs) brings Microsoft Internet Explorer 5 to the fore as a viable Microsoft Windows development platform. HTAs are full-fledged applications. These applications are trusted and display only the menus, icons, toolbars, and title information that the Web developer creates. In short, HTAs pack all the power of Internet Explorer—its object model, performance, rendering power, protocol support, and channel-download technology—without enforcing the strict security model and user interface of the browser.

This doesn't sound like something I ever want on my machine.
This added functionality provides control over user interface design and access to the client system. Moreover, run as trusted applications, HTAs are not subject to the same security constraints as Web pages.
...if saved to the client machine, it simply runs on demand thereafter. The end result is that HTAs runs like any executable (.exe) written in C++ or Visual Basic.

This definately doesn't sound like something I want on my machine. It
sounds like a sneaky way to get by security, while restricting the
normal abilities of the user to interact with the page on the user's
terms. What am I missing?

And while I'm at it... what is "trusted"? I've run into pages that
claim that they are "trusted" by someone or other. Why should I believe
those messages? How can I make my pages say the same thing?

Jose
 
J

Joe Barta

Jose said:
Hmmm. From the docs:


This doesn't sound like something I ever want on my machine.

Why not? You download and run executables all the time right?
This definately doesn't sound like something I want on my machine.
It sounds like a sneaky way to get by security, while restricting
the normal abilities of the user to interact with the page on the
user's terms. What am I missing?

I could bypass the hta altogether and use a htm2exe type wrapper...
then it would be a simple exe file that you're used to. Would that
make you feel safer?
And while I'm at it... what is "trusted"?

Not entirely sure, but I don't think it has the dire connotations you
seem to be attributing to it. It has more to do with the ability to
interact with itself. I ran into a trust issue if I recall in getting
a form to behave the way I wanted it to. I don't remember offhand what
it was, but there was nothing diabolical about it.
I've run into pages
that claim that they are "trusted" by someone or other. Why
should I believe those messages? How can I make my pages say the
same thing?

The big issue here I think is a psychological one. Plus, we're
naturally afraid of things we're unfamiliar with. The potential harm
of installing and running an hta is actually LESS than installing and
running a typical application... which folks do every day without
batting an eye. What makes you believe that a rogue hta application
could cause you any more grief than that rogue mp3 splitter you
downloaded? Actually, if one is looking to cause grief, an hta is a
pretty impotent way to go about it.

I think as of late we've been conditioned to think of the web as a
dangerous place. And unfortunately, to a degree that's true. Now tell
people they can turn a web page into an application and distribute
it... oh no! But think about it... it's no more dangerous than any
other application. And, if you think about it, because of the many
limitations of hta's, it's profoundly safer.

Joe Barta
 
J

Jose

This doesn't sound like something I ever want on my machine.
Why not? You download and run executables all the time right?

Well, no, actually. I'm very careful what executables I download and run.
I could bypass the hta altogether and use a htm2exe type wrapper...
then it would be a simple exe file that you're used to. Would that
make you feel safer?

At least I'd know what I'm rejecting. (Or accepting, but chances are
I'd reject it if I expected a simple web page.)
hat makes you believe that a rogue hta application
could cause you any more grief than that rogue mp3 splitter you
downloaded?

I don't download rogue mp3 splitters. And people that do, without
batting an eyelash, are one of the reasons why viruses propagate so easily.

I'm very careful about where I go and what I run on my machine, and
STILL I was hit by the 360 solutions worm. I saw it come in and yanked
the cord on the internet, and spent a half hour rubbing it out. I was
noplace suspect either.
I think as of late we've been conditioned to think of the web as a
dangerous place.

After cleaning up enough friend's computers, I will assert from personal
experience that the web is a dangerous place.

Jose
 
J

Joe Barta

Jose said:
After cleaning up enough friend's computers, I will assert from
personal experience that the web is a dangerous place.

I hear you, but you made the statement that you're not sure if you
wanted an hta application on your machine... but you're not telling me
why you think it would be any different than any other executable on
your machine.

Joe Barta
 
J

Jose

you made the statement that you're not sure if you
wanted an hta application on your machine... but you're not telling me
why you think it would be any different than any other executable on
your machine.

I guess what I'm saying is I don't want it to sneak on my machine
pretending it's a web page. IT makes me suspicious, especially when
when I click on a link I'm expecting to be taken to a page rather than
an executable.

As far as web pages go, it appears that hta is designed primarily to
ensure that IE is required (I wonder what company is interested in that)
and second to expand the power of webmasters and limit the power of
users, while lowering the security. From the specs, it appears to make
something that acts like a crippled web page (from the user's POV) which
circumvents the security issues that (presumably) protect the user.

It's a little like all the advantages of an operating system
modification that allows .txt files to be executed by notepad.

Jose
 
M

Mark Parnell

Deciding to do something for the good of humanity, Joe Barta
For all practical purposes it does no harm, but you're right, it
should be avoided if possible.

Not necessarily. On images, a blank title attribute may be desirable, as
it will stop IE from displaying the alt text as a tooltip.
 
J

Joe Barta

Jose said:
I guess what I'm saying is I don't want it to sneak on my machine
pretending it's a web page.

How might it do that? How would it sneak onto your machine?
IT makes me suspicious,

It would appear, yes.
especially
when when I click on a link I'm expecting to be taken to a page
rather than an executable.

If you were to click on an internet link pointing to an hta, it
wouldn't load in your browser unless you deliberately configured your
browser to do this. Here's a link...

http://www.pagetutor.com/button_designer/designer.hta

Click on it or paste it into your browser and hit Go.

Now keep in mind, as you do, you'll feel a twinge of apprehension,
maybe even a little bit of fear. Understand how that fear of the
unknown may be affecting your thinking. After you click on it, you'll
see it's no different than clicking on a link to any other filetype
and due to your increased knowledge, your fear of clicking on it will
disappear.
As far as web pages go,

It's not a web page per se. Using that line of thought, HTML help are
web pages too.
it appears that hta is designed primarily
to ensure that IE is required

Think of it as an extension of IE. And IE components are used in a LOT
of applications. You'd be surprised.
and second to expand the power of webmasters and limit
the power of users,

Well, first of all, expanding the powers of webmasters is not a bad
thing.

Interestingly, nobody walks into a McDonalds insisting that the
counter be moved here and made a different color, and the benches be
made a little wider, etc. We take it as it's presented to us... if we
don't like it, we can leave.

It's the same with web sites. A site is made for a reason. A webmaster
might wish to present it in a certain way. If you, the visitor, are
not happy with what you are presented with, you can leave. You might
own your computer, but you don't own the web site.

At any rate, I digress. We were talking about hta applications, not
web pages.
while lowering the security.

Again, there is no lowered security because hta applications are not
"web pages". It would be helpful if you just forgot about the fact
that they are html markup. Pretend for a moment that they are written
in Klingon.
From the specs,
it appears to make something that acts like a crippled web page

Not at all. An hta can do everything a web page can do. Nothing
crippled about it.

That said, internet links opening in IE rather than the user's normal
browser is certainly annoying. Like I said, the easy answer is to wag
the finger at MS and say it's more proof of their intention to
dominate the world... and that may very well be true. But at this
point in time it's perfectly reasonable to suggest that there may be
other, less diabolical reasons.
(from the user's POV) which circumvents the security issues that
(presumably) protect the user.

No, no, no. Geez you see a lot of boogie men in the closet!
It's a little like all the advantages of an operating system
modification that allows .txt files to be executed by notepad.

You lost me here.

At any rate, it appears that the disconnect here is that you're
thinking of an hta application as a web page. And you're thinking that
it has available to it certain special powers that can wreak havoc on
your computer. Once that thinking is corrected, your concerns would
hopefully be resolved.

Let me know what you think.

Joe Barta
 
A

Andy Dingley

As far as web pages go, it appears that hta is designed primarily to
ensure that IE is required (I wonder what company is interested in that)

..HTA files date back to 1997 when for DHTML IE was the major player. As
a .HTA is _only_ useful when used with ActiveXs running outside the
usual sandbox (otherwise you could just use a .HTM) then they were also
an IE-dependent technology.

I won't have either .HTAs or WSH on any of my boxes.
 

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