CSS = Chaos ?

Discussion in 'ASP .Net' started by Ian Semmel, Oct 21, 2007.

  1. Ian Semmel

    Ian Semmel Guest

    I have looked at various tutorials on css and get the concept.



    Then I decided to look at a real example and downloaded the vs Commerce
    example and checked out its css and master pages.



    My question is, did someone work this out or is it a result of an
    infinite number of monkeys pounding away at keyboards until they got
    something to work ?



    Comments from the css



    /* Critical Safari fix! */

    /* Holly hack for IE \*/

    /* helps IE get the child percentages right. */

    /* Hides from IE-mac \*/

    /* IE 3px display bug fix (in conjunction with the rule following below)
    */



    In the master page



    <!-- Conditional comment to give IE/5/6/Win the javascript hack that
    helps them do max-width. -->

    <!-- Box model fixes for IE 5.0 and 5.5 -->

    <!-- IE7-specific fixes -->



    <body>

    <div id="sizer">

    <div id="expander">

    <div id="wrapper" class="clearfix">



    etc



    In the real world, do designers work out wquivalent things or is it
    standard to just copy and paste from earlier works ?



    I don't know who invented css, but it seems to be the product of a
    disorganised and illogical mind.
     
    Ian Semmel, Oct 21, 2007
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Ian Semmel

    IfThenElse Guest

    I would comfortably say the cheap RAM and Fast Hz and opportunities their are many monkeys. Possibly a small size infinity which is enough

    Copy and past is the Rapid development method, sadly to say.

    Junk code is everywhere.

    I heard if it works then its is okay. Many developers can not think beyond one test. if it works that's it the boss is happy.


    Do your best yourself and leave the rest.




    "Ian Semmel" <> wrote in message news:2EFDFCD49817432EA66DCB1C915DBD69@DIMITY...
    I have looked at various tutorials on css and get the concept.



    Then I decided to look at a real example and downloaded the vs Commerce example and checked out its css and master pages.



    My question is, did someone work this out or is it a result of an infinite number of monkeys pounding away at keyboards until they got something to work ?



    Comments from the css



    /* Critical Safari fix! */

    /* Holly hack for IE \*/

    /* helps IE get the child percentages right. */

    /* Hides from IE-mac \*/

    /* IE 3px display bug fix (in conjunction with the rule following below) */



    In the master page



    <!-- Conditional comment to give IE/5/6/Win the javascript hack that helps them do max-width. -->

    <!-- Box model fixes for IE 5.0 and 5.5 -->

    <!-- IE7-specific fixes -->



    <body>

    <div id="sizer">

    <div id="expander">

    <div id="wrapper" class="clearfix">



    etc



    In the real world, do designers work out wquivalent things or is it standard to just copy and paste from earlier works ?



    I don't know who invented css, but it seems to be the product of a disorganised and illogical mind.
     
    IfThenElse, Oct 21, 2007
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Ian Semmel

    Mike Guest

    The problem isn't with CSS itself, just with how different browser
    developers choose to implement all or part of it at whim.

    As far as how these solutions were arrived at, there seems to be a small
    group of people out there who derive great satisfaction from finding these
    "bugs" and producing fixes for them. Personally, I'd rather stick pins in
    my eyes.

    I know one thing, if I were tempted to use CSS that required "hacks", I'd
    give up. Now, even the Holly hack needs a hack to make it work with IE7. I
    mean, who could be bothered?


    "Ian Semmel" <> wrote in message
    news:2EFDFCD49817432EA66DCB1C915DBD69@DIMITY...
    I have looked at various tutorials on css and get the concept.

    Then I decided to look at a real example and downloaded the vs Commerce
    example and checked out its css and master pages.

    My question is, did someone work this out or is it a result of an infinite
    number of monkeys pounding away at keyboards until they got something to
    work ?

    Comments from the css

    /* Critical Safari fix! */
    /* Holly hack for IE \*/
    /* helps IE get the child percentages right. */
    /* Hides from IE-mac \*/
    /* IE 3px display bug fix (in conjunction with the rule following below) */

    In the master page

    <!-- Conditional comment to give IE/5/6/Win the javascript hack that helps
    them do max-width. -->
    <!-- Box model fixes for IE 5.0 and 5.5 -->
    <!-- IE7-specific fixes -->

    <body>
    <div id="sizer">
    <div id="expander">
    <div id="wrapper" class="clearfix">

    etc

    In the real world, do designers work out wquivalent things or is it standard
    to just copy and paste from earlier works ?

    I don't know who invented css, but it seems to be the product of a
    disorganised and illogical mind.
     
    Mike, Oct 21, 2007
    #3
  4. CSS is a wonderful technology, in fact, it is one of the best things to
    happen to the web since server-side pages themselves. The reason for this is
    the fact that you can have more control over how elements are rendered (for
    example, different specifications for each border, spacing between elements,
    exact widths for all elements, etc.). Because different browsers render some
    elements slightly differently, this can make it much easier to make your
    pages more compatible with more browsers. The thing that you need to be
    careful about is to make sure all the CSS properties you use are implemented
    in any browsers you expect users to view your site with (which, in most
    cases, should be any browser). Although most modern browsers support most
    CSS properties, there are a few that are not yet implemented by all
    browsers. CSS can also save you a lot of work if you decide you want to
    change the look of your site, because if you use CSS classes you only need
    to change things such as the color, font, border, etc. in one place. And in
    case you are not aware, many HTML attributes are being deprecated in favor
    of CSS, so it would be a good idea to start using it and becoming familiar
    with it as soon as possible.
    --
    Nathan Sokalski

    http://www.nathansokalski.com/

    "Mike" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > The problem isn't with CSS itself, just with how different browser
    > developers choose to implement all or part of it at whim.
    >
    > As far as how these solutions were arrived at, there seems to be a small
    > group of people out there who derive great satisfaction from finding these
    > "bugs" and producing fixes for them. Personally, I'd rather stick pins in
    > my eyes.
    >
    > I know one thing, if I were tempted to use CSS that required "hacks", I'd
    > give up. Now, even the Holly hack needs a hack to make it work with IE7.
    > I mean, who could be bothered?
    >
    >
    > "Ian Semmel" <> wrote in message
    > news:2EFDFCD49817432EA66DCB1C915DBD69@DIMITY...
    > I have looked at various tutorials on css and get the concept.
    >
    > Then I decided to look at a real example and downloaded the vs Commerce
    > example and checked out its css and master pages.
    >
    > My question is, did someone work this out or is it a result of an infinite
    > number of monkeys pounding away at keyboards until they got something to
    > work ?
    >
    > Comments from the css
    >
    > /* Critical Safari fix! */
    > /* Holly hack for IE \*/
    > /* helps IE get the child percentages right. */
    > /* Hides from IE-mac \*/
    > /* IE 3px display bug fix (in conjunction with the rule following below)
    > */
    >
    > In the master page
    >
    > <!-- Conditional comment to give IE/5/6/Win the javascript hack that helps
    > them do max-width. -->
    > <!-- Box model fixes for IE 5.0 and 5.5 -->
    > <!-- IE7-specific fixes -->
    >
    > <body>
    > <div id="sizer">
    > <div id="expander">
    > <div id="wrapper" class="clearfix">
    >
    > etc
    >
    > In the real world, do designers work out wquivalent things or is it
    > standard to just copy and paste from earlier works ?
    >
    > I don't know who invented css, but it seems to be the product of a
    > disorganised and illogical mind.
    >
    >
    >
     
    Nathan Sokalski, Oct 21, 2007
    #4
  5. Ian Semmel

    Andrew Faust Guest

    CSS itself is well designed. The problem is not all browsers support the latest version of CSS and even then may not implement them correctly. The reality is, if you want your page to render properly on the largest number of browsers you have to deal with all sorts of work arounds for the bugs in each browser.


    --
    Andrew Faust
    andrew[at]andrewfaust.com
    http://www.andrewfaust.com


    "Ian Semmel" <> wrote in message news:2EFDFCD49817432EA66DCB1C915DBD69@DIMITY...
    I have looked at various tutorials on css and get the concept.



    Then I decided to look at a real example and downloaded the vs Commerce example and checked out its css and master pages.



    My question is, did someone work this out or is it a result of an infinite number of monkeys pounding away at keyboards until they got something to work ?



    Comments from the css



    /* Critical Safari fix! */

    /* Holly hack for IE \*/

    /* helps IE get the child percentages right. */

    /* Hides from IE-mac \*/

    /* IE 3px display bug fix (in conjunction with the rule following below) */



    In the master page



    <!-- Conditional comment to give IE/5/6/Win the javascript hack that helps them do max-width. -->

    <!-- Box model fixes for IE 5.0 and 5.5 -->

    <!-- IE7-specific fixes -->



    <body>

    <div id="sizer">

    <div id="expander">

    <div id="wrapper" class="clearfix">



    etc



    In the real world, do designers work out wquivalent things or is it standard to just copy and paste from earlier works ?



    I don't know who invented css, but it seems to be the product of a disorganised and illogical mind.
     
    Andrew Faust, Oct 22, 2007
    #5
  6. Ian Semmel

    bruce barker Guest

    the problem is historial. IE lead the standards for a while. then IE
    developement stopped, then Firefox became popular then IE started again.

    The IE team has been unwilling to break pages to make IE support html
    4.0 standards (given how much of the web is coded in ie quirks mode,
    there was no choice). IE mac did support html 4.0 standards, so IE hacks
    must detect its IE mac and follow html standards rather than IE quirks.
    with IE 7, there has been a move to better support standards (though it
    can be placed in quirks mode).

    there is a CSS acid test site to test browser compliance.

    http://www.webstandards.org/files/acid2/test.html#top

    of course, as currently only safari passes the test. this means if you
    write a fully compliant css page, safari may be the only browser it
    displays correctly one.

    if you think css is bad, wait until you get to ajax, and start using the
    dom. even though the w3c standard xmlhttprequest was based on ie 5's xml
    object, it took until version 7.0 for ie to support the standard version
    (basically the last browser to).

    the good new is that the browsers are converging on the html 4.0
    standard, and in a few years life will be better. of course xhtml 1.1 is
    out now, and no browser attempts to support it yet. though the open
    source browsers like firefox and safari will probably be first.

    -- bruce (sqlwork.com)


    Ian Semmel wrote:
    > I have looked at various tutorials on css and get the concept.
    >
    >
    >
    > Then I decided to look at a real example and downloaded the vs Commerce
    > example and checked out its css and master pages.
    >
    >
    >
    > My question is, did someone work this out or is it a result of an
    > infinite number of monkeys pounding away at keyboards until they got
    > something to work ?
    >
    >
    >
    > Comments from the css
    >
    >
    >
    > /* Critical Safari fix! */
    >
    > /* Holly hack for IE \*/
    >
    > /* helps IE get the child percentages right. */
    >
    > /* Hides from IE-mac \*/
    >
    > /* IE 3px display bug fix (in conjunction with the rule following below) */
    >
    >
    >
    > In the master page
    >
    >
    >
    > <!-- Conditional comment to give IE/5/6/Win the javascript hack that
    > helps them do max-width. -->
    >
    > <!-- Box model fixes for IE 5.0 and 5.5 -->
    >
    > <!-- IE7-specific fixes -->
    >
    >
    >
    > <body>
    >
    > <div id="sizer">
    >
    > <div id="expander">
    >
    > <div id="wrapper" class="clearfix">
    >
    >
    >
    > etc
    >
    >
    >
    > In the real world, do designers work out wquivalent things or is it
    > standard to just copy and paste from earlier works ?
    >
    >
    >
    > I don't know who invented css, but it seems to be the product of a
    > disorganised and illogical mind.
    >
    >
    >
     
    bruce barker, Oct 22, 2007
    #6
  7. Ian Semmel

    Just Me Guest

    I agree.

    It is akward really though because making a page scale and look right in all
    browsers can be a very very difficult and time consuming excercise. However,
    I dont think one needs to worry about safari or netscape simply concentrate
    on making your pages look the same in IE and Firefox which represent
    something like 98.5% of all browser clients, then make sure that safari and
    netscape look "Reasonable", and you will be 99.99% there.

    Its impossible to make them look and behave exactly the same in all
    situations, just good enough so that the user experience is acceptable.




    "Nathan Sokalski" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > CSS is a wonderful technology, in fact, it is one of the best things to
    > happen to the web since server-side pages themselves. The reason for this
    > is the fact that you can have more control over how elements are rendered
    > (for example, different specifications for each border, spacing between
    > elements, exact widths for all elements, etc.). Because different browsers
    > render some elements slightly differently, this can make it much easier to
    > make your pages more compatible with more browsers. The thing that you
    > need to be careful about is to make sure all the CSS properties you use
    > are implemented in any browsers you expect users to view your site with
    > (which, in most cases, should be any browser). Although most modern
    > browsers support most CSS properties, there are a few that are not yet
    > implemented by all browsers. CSS can also save you a lot of work if you
    > decide you want to change the look of your site, because if you use CSS
    > classes you only need to change things such as the color, font, border,
    > etc. in one place. And in case you are not aware, many HTML attributes are
    > being deprecated in favor of CSS, so it would be a good idea to start
    > using it and becoming familiar with it as soon as possible.
    > --
    > Nathan Sokalski
    >
    > http://www.nathansokalski.com/
    >
    > "Mike" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> The problem isn't with CSS itself, just with how different browser
    >> developers choose to implement all or part of it at whim.
    >>
    >> As far as how these solutions were arrived at, there seems to be a small
    >> group of people out there who derive great satisfaction from finding
    >> these "bugs" and producing fixes for them. Personally, I'd rather stick
    >> pins in my eyes.
    >>
    >> I know one thing, if I were tempted to use CSS that required "hacks", I'd
    >> give up. Now, even the Holly hack needs a hack to make it work with IE7.
    >> I mean, who could be bothered?
    >>
    >>
    >> "Ian Semmel" <> wrote in message
    >> news:2EFDFCD49817432EA66DCB1C915DBD69@DIMITY...
    >> I have looked at various tutorials on css and get the concept.
    >>
    >> Then I decided to look at a real example and downloaded the vs Commerce
    >> example and checked out its css and master pages.
    >>
    >> My question is, did someone work this out or is it a result of an
    >> infinite number of monkeys pounding away at keyboards until they got
    >> something to work ?
    >>
    >> Comments from the css
    >>
    >> /* Critical Safari fix! */
    >> /* Holly hack for IE \*/
    >> /* helps IE get the child percentages right. */
    >> /* Hides from IE-mac \*/
    >> /* IE 3px display bug fix (in conjunction with the rule following below)
    >> */
    >>
    >> In the master page
    >>
    >> <!-- Conditional comment to give IE/5/6/Win the javascript hack that
    >> helps them do max-width. -->
    >> <!-- Box model fixes for IE 5.0 and 5.5 -->
    >> <!-- IE7-specific fixes -->
    >>
    >> <body>
    >> <div id="sizer">
    >> <div id="expander">
    >> <div id="wrapper" class="clearfix">
    >>
    >> etc
    >>
    >> In the real world, do designers work out wquivalent things or is it
    >> standard to just copy and paste from earlier works ?
    >>
    >> I don't know who invented css, but it seems to be the product of a
    >> disorganised and illogical mind.
    >>
    >>
    >>

    >
    >
     
    Just Me, Oct 22, 2007
    #7
  8. Ian Semmel

    Just Me Guest

    Ive found personally that wirting css code which renders on Firefox will
    almost certainly render properly on IE "Most of the time". Doing it the
    other way around yeilds poorer results as IE is too forgiving and allows the
    developer to get away with too much.





    "bruce barker" <> wrote in message
    news:%...
    > the problem is historial. IE lead the standards for a while. then IE
    > developement stopped, then Firefox became popular then IE started again.
    >
    > The IE team has been unwilling to break pages to make IE support html 4.0
    > standards (given how much of the web is coded in ie quirks mode, there was
    > no choice). IE mac did support html 4.0 standards, so IE hacks must detect
    > its IE mac and follow html standards rather than IE quirks. with IE 7,
    > there has been a move to better support standards (though it can be placed
    > in quirks mode).
    >
    > there is a CSS acid test site to test browser compliance.
    >
    > http://www.webstandards.org/files/acid2/test.html#top
    >
    > of course, as currently only safari passes the test. this means if you
    > write a fully compliant css page, safari may be the only browser it
    > displays correctly one.
    >
    > if you think css is bad, wait until you get to ajax, and start using the
    > dom. even though the w3c standard xmlhttprequest was based on ie 5's xml
    > object, it took until version 7.0 for ie to support the standard version
    > (basically the last browser to).
    >
    > the good new is that the browsers are converging on the html 4.0 standard,
    > and in a few years life will be better. of course xhtml 1.1 is out now,
    > and no browser attempts to support it yet. though the open source browsers
    > like firefox and safari will probably be first.
    >
    > -- bruce (sqlwork.com)
    >
    >
    > Ian Semmel wrote:
    >> I have looked at various tutorials on css and get the concept.
    >>
    >> Then I decided to look at a real example and downloaded the vs Commerce
    >> example and checked out its css and master pages.
    >>
    >> My question is, did someone work this out or is it a result of an
    >> infinite number of monkeys pounding away at keyboards until they got
    >> something to work ?
    >>
    >> Comments from the css
    >>
    >> /* Critical Safari fix! */
    >>
    >> /* Holly hack for IE \*/
    >>
    >> /* helps IE get the child percentages right. */
    >>
    >> /* Hides from IE-mac \*/
    >>
    >> /* IE 3px display bug fix (in conjunction with the rule following below)
    >> */
    >>
    >> In the master page
    >>
    >> <!-- Conditional comment to give IE/5/6/Win the javascript hack that
    >> helps them do max-width. -->
    >>
    >> <!-- Box model fixes for IE 5.0 and 5.5 -->
    >>
    >> <!-- IE7-specific fixes -->
    >>
    >> <body>
    >>
    >> <div id="sizer">
    >>
    >> <div id="expander">
    >>
    >> <div id="wrapper" class="clearfix">
    >>
    >> etc
    >>
    >> In the real world, do designers work out wquivalent things or is it
    >> standard to just copy and paste from earlier works ?
    >>
    >> I don't know who invented css, but it seems to be the product of a
    >> disorganised and illogical mind.
    >>
    >>
     
    Just Me, Oct 22, 2007
    #8
  9. Ian Semmel

    Ian Semmel Guest

    Well it must be a fairly crappy standard if it allows browser writers to
    produce such variances in rendered output.

    >
    > the problem is historial. IE lead the standards for a while. then IE
    > developement stopped, then Firefox became popular then IE started
    > again.
    >
    > The IE team has been unwilling to break pages to make IE support html
    > 4.0 standards (given how much of the web is coded in ie quirks mode,
    > there was no choice). IE mac did support html 4.0 standards, so IE
    > hacks
    > must detect its IE mac and follow html standards rather than IE

    quirks.
    > with IE 7, there has been a move to better support standards (though

    it
    > can be placed in quirks mode).
    >
    > there is a CSS acid test site to test browser compliance.
    >
    > http://www.webstandards.org/files/acid2/test.html#top
    >
    > of course, as currently only safari passes the test. this means if you
    > write a fully compliant css page, safari may be the only browser it
    > displays correctly one.
    >
    > if you think css is bad, wait until you get to ajax, and start using
    > the
    > dom. even though the w3c standard xmlhttprequest was based on ie 5's
    > xml
    > object, it took until version 7.0 for ie to support the standard
    > version
    > (basically the last browser to).
    >
    > the good new is that the browsers are converging on the html 4.0
    > standard, and in a few years life will be better. of course xhtml 1.1
    > is
    > out now, and no browser attempts to support it yet. though the open
    > source browsers like firefox and safari will probably be first.
    >
    > -- bruce (sqlwork.com)
    >
    >
    > Ian Semmel wrote:
    > > I have looked at various tutorials on css and get the concept.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > Then I decided to look at a real example and downloaded the vs

    > Commerce
    > > example and checked out its css and master pages.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > My question is, did someone work this out or is it a result of an
    > > infinite number of monkeys pounding away at keyboards until they got
    > > something to work ?
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > Comments from the css
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > /* Critical Safari fix! */
    > >
    > > /* Holly hack for IE \*/
    > >
    > > /* helps IE get the child percentages right. */
    > >
    > > /* Hides from IE-mac \*/
    > >
    > > /* IE 3px display bug fix (in conjunction with the rule following

    > below) */
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > In the master page
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > <!-- Conditional comment to give IE/5/6/Win the javascript hack that
    > > helps them do max-width. -->
    > >
    > > <!-- Box model fixes for IE 5.0 and 5.5 -->
    > >
    > > <!-- IE7-specific fixes -->
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > <body>
    > >
    > > <div id="sizer">
    > >
    > > <div id="expander">
    > >
    > > <div id="wrapper" class="clearfix">
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > etc
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > In the real world, do designers work out wquivalent things or is it
    > > standard to just copy and paste from earlier works ?
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > I don't know who invented css, but it seems to be the product of a
    > > disorganised and illogical mind.
    > >
    > >
    > >
     
    Ian Semmel, Oct 23, 2007
    #9
  10. Making it work in Firefox will cover a larger range of browsers
    (including Netscape), because other browsers are based on Mozilla's
    same browsing engine (Gecko). I focus on Firefox and IE, and check it
    in Opera and a Linux browser or two (including Konqueror) every once
    in a while. I actually don't get to check it in IE so often as I
    should because I spend most of my time in Linux, but when I get
    Windows up in a VM I check my stuff out in Windows browsers too.

    CSS has many beautiful things (advanced selectors and such) that we
    can't use because not all browsers implement them. I like to be able
    to do things like this:

    a[target='_blank']:after
    {
    content: ' (_blank)';
    font-size: x-small;
    vertical-align: top;
    }

    or

    a:link { text-decoration: underline !important; }

    ....when I'm developing something that I am /sure/ will only be
    accessed in Gecko (for a specific business or in an XUL app). I find
    these things useful for customizing other websites anyway, though
    (using Firefox's userChrome.css).

    -Michael Placentra II


    On Oct 22, 6:04 am, "Just Me" <news.microsoft.com> wrote:
    > I dont think one needs to worry about safari or netscape simply concentrate
    > on making your pages look the same in IE and Firefox which represent
    > something like 98.5% of all browser clients, then make sure that safari and
    > netscape look "Reasonable", and you will be 99.99% there.
     
    Mike Placentra II, Oct 23, 2007
    #10
  11. "Ian Semmel" <> wrote in message
    news:90E551F7B53E4950B32C84EAA54FEEF0@DIMITY...
    > Well it must be a fairly crappy standard if it allows browser writers to
    > produce such variances in rendered output.

    <snip>

    CSS is far from crappy. You have to understand the history of HTML and the
    WWW to understand what is going on. When HTML was first introduced, back in
    the late 90's, there were no such things as standards for web markup
    languages, scripting, etc. It was a new invention, and it was written
    without a lot of thought about extensibility. However, it did create a huge
    increase in web usage and activity. This led to a crop of various "user
    agents" (browsers) manufactured by a number of companies, beginning with
    Netscape.

    Originally, HTML used a fairly simple subset if SGML to create web pages.
    Attributes and tags such as font tags in HTML elements were used to refine
    their characteristics/properties. It was "extensible" in a sense, as you
    could use (or add to the language) custom tags attributes which could be
    picked up by any browser that understood them, and they would be ignored by
    any browser that did not. In short order, due to the tremendous demand for
    web pages to provide more and more types of content, various browser vendors
    introduced a number of proprietary markups to enhance their browser and make
    it competitive. Of course, this was all going on independently of the other
    vendors. Sometimes vendors would accomodate the tags of others, and
    sometimes not. This was all due partially to competition of the various
    browser vendors for a mushrooming market share. This time is commonly known
    as the "browser wars."

    Now perhaps you can see where the browser compatibility problems began. This
    was hell for developers who wanted to design web pages viewable by anyone in
    the world, regardless of their software platform.

    Standards began to emerge with the W3C primarily, a consortium of software
    companies working together to remedy the problem, and CSS, along with a
    number of other great improvements, came out of this. Of course, the various
    browser vendors took quite some time, for a variety of reasons, in
    accomodating the new standards, while remaining backwards-compatible at the
    same time. XHTML also came out of this, and the "X" stands for "eXtensible."
    XHTML and CSS were both designed with smooth and virtually limitless
    extensibility in mind. These are great standards, but manufacturers comply
    with them voluntarily (thank God - the last thing we need is for some
    governing agency to control the Internet). The motivation is still
    competition, but the motivation is now geared to encourage compliance with
    these standards, as they are in common usage, and using them makes any
    software more compatible across the world.

    --
    HTH,

    Kevin Spencer
    Chicken Salad Surgeon
    Microsoft MVP
     
    Kevin Spencer, Oct 25, 2007
    #11
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