Definition Lists

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Luigi Donatello Asero, Apr 3, 2004.

  1. Luigi Donatello Asero, Apr 3, 2004
    #1
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  2. Luigi Donatello Asero <> wrote:

    > Hi,
    > I am wondering whether definition lists are appropriate on the
    > page http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/sv/francavilladisicilia.html


    I would say no, because the defintion data doesn't define the term (and
    I know that since Swedish is my native language).
    Also, I think that your styling for the list is a little confusing.

    I would probably mark them up as:
    <ul>
    <li>ett kök med matvrä med öppen spis, köksspis, kylskåp, bord,
    grytor och andra kökskärl</li>
    <li>ett sovrum med dubbelsäng, skåp, byrå samt nattduksbord</li>
    <li>...</li>
    </ul>

    --
    David Håsäther
     
    David Håsäther, Apr 3, 2004
    #2
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  3. "David Håsäther" <> skrev i meddelandet
    news:Xns94C0A299AB85Ddavidhasather@195.67.237.51...
    > Luigi Donatello Asero <> wrote:
    >
    > > Hi,
    > > I am wondering whether definition lists are appropriate on the
    > > page http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/sv/francavilladisicilia.html

    >
    > I would say no, because the defintion data doesn't define the term (and
    > I know that since Swedish is my native language).
    > Also, I think that your styling for the list is a little confusing.
    >
    > I would probably mark them up as:
    > <ul>
    > <li>ett kök med matvrä med öppen spis, köksspis, kylskåp, bord,
    > grytor och andra kökskärl</li>
    > <li>ett sovrum med dubbelsäng, skåp, byrå samt nattduksbord</li>
    > <li>...</li>
    > </ul>
    >
    > --
    > David Håsäther



    Of course you used <ul> because you think that this is no definition list. I
    assumed that it was and I followed the example which you can read on the
    following page
    http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/lists.html
    to code the mark up. The text between <dd> and </dd> gives further elements
    about how the room looks like because it gives information about the pieces
    of furniture and the like.
    Please compare:




    <dl>
    <dt>ett kök</dt>
    <dd>med matvrä med öppen spis, köksspis, kylskåp, bord, grytor och andra
    kökskärl,</dd>
    <dt>ett sovrum</dt>
    <dd>med dubbelsäng, skåp, byrå samt nattduksbord,</dd>
    <dt>ett annat sovrum
    <dd>med två enkelsängar, två skåp och nattduksbord,</dd>
    <dt>ett vardagsrum</dt>
    <dd>med möjlighet av upp till 8 sovplatser,</dd>
    <dt>en tvättstuga</dt>
    <dd> med tvättmaskin med förrådsrum samt</dd>
    <dt>ett badrum</dt>
    <dd>med dusch</dd>
    </dl>

    --
    Luigi ( un italiano che vive in Svezia)
    http://www.italymap.dk
    http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/sv/sicilien.html
     
    Luigi Donatello Asero, Apr 3, 2004
    #3
  4. "Luigi Donatello Asero" <> skrev i meddelandet
    news:n8Bbc.55057$...
    >
    > "David Håsäther" <> skrev i meddelandet
    > news:Xns94C0A299AB85Ddavidhasather@195.67.237.51...
    > > Luigi Donatello Asero <> wrote:
    > >
    > > > Hi,
    > > > I am wondering whether definition lists are appropriate on the
    > > > page http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/sv/francavilladisicilia.html

    > >
    > > I would say no, because the defintion data doesn't define the term (and
    > > I know that since Swedish is my native language).
    > > Also, I think that your styling for the list is a little confusing.
    > >
    > > I would probably mark them up as:
    > > <ul>
    > > <li>ett kök med matvrä med öppen spis, köksspis, kylskåp, bord,
    > > grytor och andra kökskärl</li>
    > > <li>ett sovrum med dubbelsäng, skåp, byrå samt nattduksbord</li>
    > > <li>...</li>
    > > </ul>
    > >
    > > --
    > > David Håsäther

    >
    >
    > Of course you used <ul> because you think that this is no definition list.

    I
    > assumed that it was and I followed the example which you can read on the
    > following page
    > http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/lists.html
    > to code the mark up. The text between <dd> and </dd> gives further

    elements
    > about how the room looks like because it gives information about the

    pieces
    > of furniture and the like.
    > Please compare:
    >
    >
    > the examples on http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/lists.html


    and the code which I used on the page
    http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/sv/francavilladisicilia.html
    for the list

    <dl>
    <dt>ett kök</dt>
    <dd>med matvrä med öppen spis, köksspis, kylskåp, bord, grytor och andra
    kökskärl,</dd>
    <dt>ett sovrum</dt>
    <dd>med dubbelsäng, skåp, byrå samt nattduksbord,</dd>
    <dt>ett annat sovrum
    <dd>med två enkelsängar, två skåp och nattduksbord,</dd>
    ><dt>ett vardagsrum</dt>

    <dd>med möjlighet av upp till 8 sovplatser,</dd>
    <dt>en tvättstuga</dt>
    <dd> med tvättmaskin med förrådsrum samt</dd>
    <dt>ett badrum</dt>
    <dd>med dusch</dd>
    </dl>
    Another way would be to write it as an ordered list.

    --
    Luigi ( un italiano che vive in Svezia)
    http://www.italymap.dk
    http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/sv/sicilien.html
     
    Luigi Donatello Asero, Apr 3, 2004
    #4
  5. "Luigi Donatello Asero" <> wrote:

    > Of course you used <ul> because you think that this is no definition
    > list.


    It simply isn't a definition list. If you call it a definition list, what
    will you do when you encounter a list of definitions of terms?

    > I assumed that it was and I followed the example which you can
    > read on the following page
    > http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/lists.html


    They define <dl> as a definition list, then use it in foolish ways and
    say that it's OK. There are two logical ways to deal with this: take the
    _definition_ seriously, and follow it, not the wrong examples or loose
    statements; or regard <dl> as having no actual definition whatsoever (if
    it "can be used" for anything you like, then it does not really _mean_
    anything), so don't use it.

    --
    Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
    Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html
     
    Jukka K. Korpela, Apr 3, 2004
    #5
  6. Luigi Donatello Asero

    Mitja Guest

    "Luigi Donatello Asero" <> wrote in message
    news:mpybc.88467$...
    > Hi,
    > I am wondering whether definition lists are appropriate on the page
    > http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/sv/francavilladisicilia.html
    > I am writing a list of rooms which the house consists of and the pieces of
    > furniture
    > which are contained in each room
    > (the list has to be completed yet)
    > I used <dt> to list the rooms and <dd> for the furniture
    >
    > --
    > Luigi ( un italiano che vive in Svezia)
    > http://www.italymap.dk
    > http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/sv/sicilien.html
    >
    >
    >


    It's all just a matter of taste, so do it as you wish.
    I personally wouldn't use a definition list, since I don't think the list of
    furniture really defines the room as a term. But then again, if we only used
    DLs in this context (ie defining terms) they would be very rarely the thing
    to do. In a way, the room as such _is_ defined by what it contains.
    Anyway, IMO, there's not that much difference between DLs an ULs that you
    should worry about it.
     
    Mitja, Apr 3, 2004
    #6
  7. "Jukka K. Korpela" <> skrev i meddelandet
    news:Xns94C0C6A5D1AE2jkorpelacstutfi@193.229.0.31...
    > "Luigi Donatello Asero" <> wrote:
    >
    > > Of course you used <ul> because you think that this is no definition
    > > list.

    >
    > It simply isn't a definition list. If you call it a definition list, what
    > will you do when you encounter a list of definitions of terms?
    >
    > > I assumed that it was and I followed the example which you can
    > > read on the following page
    > > http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/lists.html

    >
    > They define <dl> as a definition list, then use it in foolish ways and
    > say that it's OK. There are two logical ways to deal with this: take the
    > _definition_ seriously, and follow it, not the wrong examples or loose
    > statements; or regard <dl> as having no actual definition whatsoever (if
    > it "can be used" for anything you like, then it does not really _mean_
    > anything), so don't use it.


    Who are they? Those belonging to www.w3.org who also publish the rules about
    HTML?


    --
    Luigi ( un italiano che vive in Svezia)
    http://www.italymap.dk
    http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/sv/sicilien.html
     
    Luigi Donatello Asero, Apr 3, 2004
    #7
  8. "Mitja" <> skrev i meddelandet
    news:c4mqs4$7te$...
    > "Luigi Donatello Asero" <> wrote in message
    > news:mpybc.88467$...
    > > Hi,
    > > I am wondering whether definition lists are appropriate on the page
    > > http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/sv/francavilladisicilia.html
    > > I am writing a list of rooms which the house consists of and the pieces

    of
    > > furniture
    > > which are contained in each room
    > > (the list has to be completed yet)
    > > I used <dt> to list the rooms and <dd> for the furniture
    > >
    > > --
    > > Luigi ( un italiano che vive in Svezia)
    > > http://www.italymap.dk
    > > http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/sv/sicilien.html
    > >
    > >
    > >

    >
    > It's all just a matter of taste, so do it as you wish.
    > I personally wouldn't use a definition list, since I don't think the list

    of
    > furniture really defines the room as a term.

    Not a room but a sleeping room, for example. A sleeping room usually has
    beds, for example and a kitchen usually does not have them although both are
    rooms!

    .. In a way, the room as such _is_ defined by what it contains.
    That is what I mean (see above)

    --
    Luigi ( un italiano che vive in Svezia)
    http://www.italymap.dk
    http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/sv/sicilien.html
     
    Luigi Donatello Asero, Apr 3, 2004
    #8
  9. "Jukka K. Korpela" <> skrev i meddelandet
    news:Xns94C0C6A5D1AE2jkorpelacstutfi@193.229.0.31...
    > "Luigi Donatello Asero" <> wrote:
    >
    > > Of course you used <ul> because you think that this is no definition
    > > list.

    >
    > It simply isn't a definition list. If you call it a definition list, what
    > will you do when you encounter a list of definitions of terms?
    >
    > > I assumed that it was and I followed the example which you can
    > > read on the following page
    > > http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/lists.html

    >
    > They define <dl> as a definition list, then use it in foolish ways and
    > say that it's OK. There are two logical ways to deal with this: take the
    > _definition_ seriously, and follow it, not the wrong examples or loose
    > statements; or regard <dl> as having no actual definition whatsoever (if
    > it "can be used" for anything you like, then it does not really _mean_
    > anything), so don't use it.


    You can also try to interpret what they actually mean looking at the
    examples they use.

    --
    Luigi ( un italiano che vive in Svezia)
    http://www.italymap.dk
    http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/sv/sicilien.html
     
    Luigi Donatello Asero, Apr 3, 2004
    #9
  10. Luigi Donatello Asero

    Jim Roberts Guest

    "Luigi Donatello Asero" <> wrote in message
    news:eek:4Fbc.55073$...
    > > It's all just a matter of taste, so do it as you wish.
    > > I personally wouldn't use a definition list, since I don't think the

    list
    > of
    > > furniture really defines the room as a term.

    > Not a room but a sleeping room, for example. A sleeping room usually has
    > beds, for example and a kitchen usually does not have them although both

    are
    > rooms!
    >
    > . In a way, the room as such _is_ defined by what it contains.
    > That is what I mean (see above)
    >
    > --
    > Luigi ( un italiano che vive in Svezia)
    > http://www.italymap.dk
    > http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/sv/sicilien.html
    >

    If you were going to use a definition list anyway, why bother posting your
    original question? Personally I don't care whether you do or not. You
    obviously are going to do it anyway. Why argue?

    regards,
    Jim
     
    Jim Roberts, Apr 3, 2004
    #10
  11. "Jim Roberts" <> skrev i meddelandet
    news:c4n8ff$2kt9rr$-berlin.de...
    >
    > "Luigi Donatello Asero" <> wrote in message
    > news:eek:4Fbc.55073$...
    > > > It's all just a matter of taste, so do it as you wish.
    > > > I personally wouldn't use a definition list, since I don't think the

    > list
    > > of
    > > > furniture really defines the room as a term.

    > > Not a room but a sleeping room, for example. A sleeping room usually has
    > > beds, for example and a kitchen usually does not have them although both

    > are
    > > rooms!
    > >
    > > . In a way, the room as such _is_ defined by what it contains.
    > > That is what I mean (see above)
    > >
    > > --
    > > Luigi ( un italiano che vive in Svezia)
    > > http://www.italymap.dk
    > > http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/sv/sicilien.html
    > >

    > If you were going to use a definition list anyway, why bother posting your
    > original question? Personally I don't care whether you do or not. You
    > obviously are going to do it anyway. Why argue?
    >
    > regards,
    > Jim


    What I do also depends
    on the answers I get. I cannot know before whether I get answer which
    are convincing or not.
    In this case, I assume that those belonging to www.w3.org also
    publish the rules about
    HTML. Therefore I also assume that they are consistent with the rules they
    make and
    I try to understand what they mean when they make an example.
    I try to understand the rule by the examples and not first to interpret the
    rule and later check it up whether the examples are consistent with the
    rules
    as they must know what they mean when they themselves have made the rules.
    So, what Jukka wrote "They define <dl> as a definition list, then use it
    in foolish ways and
    > say that it's OK." sounds a bit strange to me.


    Best regards
    Luigi
     
    Luigi Donatello Asero, Apr 3, 2004
    #11
  12. "Luigi Donatello Asero" <> skrev i meddelandet
    news:AOFbc.55077$...
    >
    > "Jim Roberts" <> skrev i meddelandet
    > news:c4n8ff$2kt9rr$-berlin.de...
    > >
    > > "Luigi Donatello Asero" <> wrote in message
    > > news:eek:4Fbc.55073$...
    > > > > It's all just a matter of taste, so do it as you wish.
    > > > > I personally wouldn't use a definition list, since I don't think the

    > > list
    > > > of
    > > > > furniture really defines the room as a term.
    > > > Not a room but a sleeping room, for example. A sleeping room usually

    has
    > > > beds, for example and a kitchen usually does not have them although

    both
    > > are
    > > > rooms!
    > > >
    > > > . In a way, the room as such _is_ defined by what it contains.
    > > > That is what I mean (see above)
    > > >
    > > > --
    > > > Luigi ( un italiano che vive in Svezia)
    > > > http://www.italymap.dk
    > > > http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/sv/sicilien.html
    > > >

    > > If you were going to use a definition list anyway, why bother posting

    your
    > > original question? Personally I don't care whether you do or not. You
    > > obviously are going to do it anyway. Why argue?
    > >
    > > regards,
    > > Jim

    >
    > What I do also depends
    > on the answers I get. I cannot know before whether I get answer which
    > are convincing or not.
    > In this case, I assume that those belonging to www.w3.org also
    > publish the rules about
    > HTML. Therefore I also assume that they are consistent with the rules they
    > make and
    > I try to understand what they mean when they make an example.
    > I try to understand the rule by the examples and not first to interpret

    the
    > rule and later check it up whether the examples are consistent with the
    > rules
    > as they must know what they mean when they themselves have made the rules.
    > So, what Jukka wrote "They define <dl> as a definition list, then use it
    > in foolish ways and
    > > say that it's OK." sounds a bit strange to me.

    >
    > Best regards
    > Luigi


    So, what I mean is that a way to interpret HTML rules which is convincing
    must be consistent with the examples which www.w3.org has already made.
    If, on the other hand, www.w3.org should be of the opinion that the
    examples, which they have made themselves, are not appropriate, they would
    probably change them, wouldn´t they?
    --
    Luigi ( un italiano che vive in Svezia)
    http://www.italymap.dk
    http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/sv/sicilien.html
     
    Luigi Donatello Asero, Apr 3, 2004
    #12
  13. Jukka K. Korpela, Apr 3, 2004
    #13
  14. Luigi Donatello Asero

    Jim Roberts Guest

    "Jukka K. Korpela" wrote:

    > "Luigi Donatello Asero" wrote:
    >
    > > Who are they? Those belonging to www.w3.org who also publish the
    > > rules about HTML?

    >
    > Exactly. Just because they violate their own rules doesn't mean you
    > should do the same.
    >


    lol. Do what we say, not as we do...

    Regards,
    Jim
     
    Jim Roberts, Apr 3, 2004
    #14
  15. "Jim Roberts" <> skrev i meddelandet
    news:c4neco$2kp4qq$-berlin.de...
    >
    > "Jukka K. Korpela" wrote:
    >
    > > "Luigi Donatello Asero" wrote:
    > >
    > > > Who are they? Those belonging to www.w3.org who also publish the
    > > > rules about HTML?

    > >
    > > Exactly. Just because they violate their own rules doesn't mean you
    > > should do the same.


    Don´t you think that they should know better than others how the rules
    should be interpreted?
    I would rather suggest that the do not violate any rules: on the contrary,
    they try to help users to understand what they mean by their rules!

    --
    Luigi ( un italiano che vive in Svezia)
    http://www.italymap.dk
    http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/sv/sicilien.html
     
    Luigi Donatello Asero, Apr 3, 2004
    #15
  16. "Luigi Donatello Asero" <> wrote:

    > I would rather suggest that the do not violate any rules: on the
    > contrary, they try to help users to understand what they mean by
    > their rules!


    So you mean that, for example, when a specific definition is followed by
    an example that violates the definition, the definition should be read as
    saying something quite different from what it actually says?

    You cannot really harmonize the specifications. The W3C specifications
    contradict each other, and official standards and protocols, and even
    themselves internally. Not very often, but they do. As long as they don't
    fix their contradictions, it's the reader's responsibility to make an
    intelligent interpretation.

    And surely something presented as a _definition_ trumps something
    presented as a note, or merely as an example.

    --
    Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
    Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html
     
    Jukka K. Korpela, Apr 4, 2004
    #16
  17. "Jukka K. Korpela" <> skrev i meddelandet
    news:Xns94C19184224E6jkorpelacstutfi@193.229.0.31...
    > "Luigi Donatello Asero" <> wrote:
    >
    > > I would rather suggest that the do not violate any rules: on the
    > > contrary, they try to help users to understand what they mean by
    > > their rules!

    >
    > So you mean that, for example, when a specific definition is followed by
    > an example that violates the definition, the definition should be read as
    > saying something quite different from what it actually says?



    According to me the example is no violation of the definition. It only helps
    to understand the definition better.
    Your opinion is clearly different on this subject.

    --
    Luigi ( un italiano che vive in Svezia)
    http://www.italymap.dk
    http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/sv/sicilien.html
     
    Luigi Donatello Asero, Apr 4, 2004
    #17
  18. Andrew Urquhart, Apr 4, 2004
    #18
  19. On Sat, 03 Apr 2004 22:24:29 +0000, Jukka K. Korpela wrote:

    > Exactly. Just because they violate their own rules doesn't mean you
    > should do the same.


    I did though I'm afraid, I'm sure you recognise this:
    http://brightonfixedodds.net/sitemap.php.
    I assume it should be re-written as an unordered list?

    --
    frostie
    http://brightonfixedodds.net
     
    Robert Frost-Bridges, Apr 4, 2004
    #19
  20. "Andrew Urquhart" <> skrev i meddelandet
    news:5N%bc.886$...
    > Robert Frost-Bridges wrote:
    > > http://brightonfixedodds.net/sitemap.php.
    > > I assume it should be re-written as an unordered list?

    >
    > Looks like it to me as the only data relationship between the <dt> and
    > <dd>s is the tree hierarchy and an ordered list would do that more
    > cleanly.
    >
    > This thread has me wondering now whether my own <dl> sitemap is as
    > semantic as I thought it was: http://www.andrewu.co.uk/about/sitemap/ ?


    I am not sure whether I understand what you mean by "semantic" in this
    context but I would say that the use of a definition list sounds appropriate
    to me on the page which you mentioned and consistent with the example which
    is made by w3.org
    Best regards
    --
    Luigi ( un italiano che vive in Svezia)
    http://www.italymap.dk
    http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/sv/presentartiklarheminredning.html
     
    Luigi Donatello Asero, Apr 5, 2004
    #20
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