Design patterns

J

Joshua Maurice

p1: is false : machines have to operate on algorithm,
since there is no algorithm for creativity...
follows that
p2 :) people's creativity is not based on algorithm...

You may continue to claim by fiat that people are creative, and that
creativity is the ability to create an algorithm to solve any solvable
problem. I will continue to note that you are claiming this by fiat,
and I will continue to disagree that people can create a solution
algorithm for any solvable problem. At least, I will continue to doubt
it until presented with some argument which is not fiat.
 
B

Branimir Maksimovic

Joshua said:
You may continue to claim by fiat that people are creative, and that
creativity is the ability to create an algorithm to solve any solvable
problem. I will continue to note that you are claiming this by fiat,
and I will continue to disagree that people can create a solution
algorithm for any solvable problem. At least, I will continue to doubt
it until presented with some argument which is not fiat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intuition_(knowledge)

Greets
 
T

tanix

p1: is false : machines have to operate on algorithm,
since there is no algorithm for creativity...
follows that
p2 :) people's creativity is not based on algorithm...

Well, why not ask what is creativity to begin with?

By definition, it has to deal with something new.
Now, since it is new, there exists no information about it
in the system at the moment.

If there does not exists any information about it,
how can you possibly find a way to create something,
that you can not even describe in your present terms?

Algorithms refer to things that are known and describable.
If you throw some totally uknown thing at an algorithm,
how does it "know" where to plug it in, into what table
or what description of what? What category it belongs to?
Under what label do you stick it in? What does it realte to?

So, there is an inherent contradiction of adding something
that does not exist in the system yet. One one end, what you
have created is valid and new, and on the other hand, you
don't know where to plug it in.

Creativity is based on intuition and not a set of known "facts".
Intuition is the inherent ability of Intelligence to go beyond
all known "facts" and limitations associated with them.

It is largely contextual, even though revelations are not.
Intuition "works" when you are willing and courageous enough
to tune into things you don't know. It is a great trust.
Trust into validity of your own being.
Trust that you can go beyond your limitations
and it will be revealed to you eventually
when you are mature enough and ready enough to even allow
such a thing to enter into domain of that, which you already
know.

There is an argument in AI that Intelligence is something that
is created via randomness. You just flip some coin, and bang,
you created something new, sooner or later, which is utter
fallacy.

Intelligence is not based on some random thing. It is very
directed, very contextual, forever staying within the bounds
of existing information. Plus allowing a totally new information
to enter, thus expanding the domain of known.

Intuition is an opening within you that allows you to communicate
with domains of beyond.

Most of the authors of great discoveries claimed
"it was not me, who created this thing.
It was given to me."

Given to you by WHOM?

Algorithms, on other hand, can not deal with totally new information.
It is basically an exception situation.
When exception happens, it is obvious, you can not continue
processing something because there exists no logic within
your system to handle it.

At THAT point, all you can do is try to either restart some
operation, hoping that some wild parameter is going to go away
like in situations where you lost a network connection for
totally unknow reason, or rather a reason, not described by
your system, or abandon the whole operation and go to the next
item on the list if there is one.

The bottom line is intelligence is not algorithmic.
Never was and can not possibly be.
The very evidence of AI shows it in no uncertain terms.
Marvin Minsky very pointedly stated that all the great "progress"
and "achievements" of AI are so primitive that they basically
view intelligence in terms of ideas of backlash and hysterisis
level.

We simply have no idea what Intelligence is.
We simply have no clue what consciousness is,
without which, no intelligence is possible
pretty much by definition.

Everything that was "discovered" in AI field is nothing more
than immitation of the existing Intelligence, which is biological
in the physical domain at least, the domain of manifest and
embodied into matter.

There exists no algorithm or method to discover something new.
It is not a matter of random permutations of known things,
as of necessity.

We are profoundly limited by the very nature of physical domain,
forever groping in the darkness to see some opening, some light
"at the end of tunnel" and forever enjoying the tremendous
blessings of seeing beyond the ordinary, beyond known,
beyond the limitations of that which we know.

If it were algorithmic, we could just keep throwing the random
numbers at some algorithm and it would eventually find something
new, except it would not even know where to stick it, under
which category of what.

The idea of AI is fundamentally flawed.
There is no such a thing.
ALL we know of is biological intelligence
and that is the only reference framework available to us
in the physical domain.
No Penrose, just found all teachers of mathematical logic
new before him since 30's...

:--}

Cool. I wish I knew what you guys are talking about.

--
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T

tanix


Well, when you deal with issues of nothing less than Intuition,
good luck.

Just one point on this:

"The intuition is the pattern-matching process that quickly
suggests feasible courses of action."

Not true. There is no analysis in intuition.
It is an instantaneous REVELATION,
totally discontinuous as far as state of the system goes.

"The analysis is the mental simulation, a conscious and deliberate review of
the courses of action".

There is no analysis. It does not apply.
You can not possibly have a "course of action" towards somehing,
you do not know yet. Action is forever directed. Directed towards
something you already know one way or the other. You have to have
some "goal". It has to exist somewhere.
Otherwise, where are you going towards.
What is your direction?

And the only direction I know of is direction of Truth,
THAT ... WHICH ... IS.

That is all you can do...
Forever trying to discover that, which already is,
even though not in the domain where you are in at teh moment.


--
Programmer's Goldmine collections:

http://preciseinfo.org

Tens of thousands of code examples and expert discussions on
C++, MFC, VC, ATL, STL, templates, Java, Python, Javascript, PHP,
organized by major topics of language, tools, methods, techniques.
 

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