Dilemma in Web Design-At my wit's end! :|

Discussion in 'HTML' started by emlmar@hotmail.com, May 18, 2004.

  1. Guest

    Hi,

    I am an entry-level web designer wondering what to do. :| I have *a
    lot* of questions so please bear with me. I know more people have been
    in my situation, snd I'm wondering how you get out of it.

    I have:

    Software:
    DW MX
    Flash
    Freehand
    Fireworks
    Photoshop 7/ImageReady

    Background:
    Internet Developer diploma
    Web Design certificate
    Over 15 years of PC computer background
    Work with transferring video from tape to web
    Tutored people at my local college in HTML

    I really enjoy maintaining websites by both handcoding and editor
    means. I just have a very hard time finding a job in the web designing
    field since I never seem to know enough.

    I've tried offering to do websites for little money to try to show
    what I can do, but everyone wants it for free. Sound familiar? ;)

    I just went through all the programming languages etc. that I would
    need to be experienced in and am overwhelmed by what to do or where to
    start. Apparently 2 years of coursework isn't enough and I feel like I
    would have to go to college for the rest of my life to even increase
    the chances of getting a job in this field... Then the problem of
    everything outdating so fast doesn't help either.

    ASP
    DB
    C++
    HTML/DHTML
    CSS
    Flash
    XML
    Perl
    PHP
    CGI
    Actionscript
    Java
    Java Server Pages

    Is it technically possible for someone to actually know enough about
    everything listed above to be considered adequate for a job or is it
    better to specialize in a language and work from there?

    How do you get anywhere in this field if no one is willing to hire
    you, so you can get that experience that companies all seem to want?!?

    I'm looking into getting a CIW certification. Might that help get me
    somewhere?

    Any help would be greatly appreciated!
     
    , May 18, 2004
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Mitja Guest

    <>
    (news:) wrote:
    > Hi,
    >
    > I am an entry-level web designer wondering what to do. :| I have *a
    > lot* of questions so please bear with me. I know more people have been
    > in my situation, snd I'm wondering how you get out of it.
    >
    > I have:
    >
    > Software:
    > DW MX
    > Flash
    > Freehand
    > Fireworks
    > Photoshop 7/ImageReady
    >
    > Background:
    > Internet Developer diploma
    > Web Design certificate
    > Over 15 years of PC computer background
    > Work with transferring video from tape to web
    > Tutored people at my local college in HTML
    >
    > I really enjoy maintaining websites by both handcoding and editor
    > means. I just have a very hard time finding a job in the web designing
    > field since I never seem to know enough.
    >
    > I've tried offering to do websites for little money to try to show
    > what I can do, but everyone wants it for free. Sound familiar? ;)
    >
    > I just went through all the programming languages etc. that I would
    > need to be experienced in and am overwhelmed by what to do or where to
    > start. Apparently 2 years of coursework isn't enough and I feel like I
    > would have to go to college for the rest of my life to even increase
    > the chances of getting a job in this field... Then the problem of
    > everything outdating so fast doesn't help either.
    >
    > ASP
    > DB


    That's probably SQL you meant?

    > C++


    Why should you know C/C++ in order to make web pages?

    > HTML/DHTML
    > CSS


    You already know those - at least you said so. If you're not familiar with
    JS

    > Flash


    Some people want to have flashy sites, sure. So it doesn't hurt to be at
    home with Flash, but it's far from absolutely necessary - though it may
    costs you a few customers.

    > XML


    Why?

    > Perl
    > PHP


    For most servers PHP and ASP should suffice. I personally favor Python (yet
    another scripting language), although Perl is more widely supported.

    > CGI


    That's just a generic name, not any particualr language.

    > Actionscript


    Part of Flash.

    > Java
    > Java Server Pages


    See above - two or three scripting languages should get you anywhere.
    Doesn't hurt to know more than that, and quite a few people do, but soner or
    later you've got to specialize because you can't be really fluent in every
    technology there is.

    >
    > Is it technically possible for someone to actually know enough about
    > everything listed above to be considered adequate for a job or is it
    > better to specialize in a language and work from there?


    Depends on what your employer wants... It's usually just a part of
    everything listed above, but more knowledge makes it possible to apply for
    different jobs.

    > How do you get anywhere in this field if no one is willing to hire
    > you, so you can get that experience that companies all seem to want?!?
    >
    > I'm looking into getting a CIW certification. Might that help get me
    > somewhere?
    >
    > Any help would be greatly appreciated!
     
    Mitja, May 18, 2004
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Augustus Guest

    <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Hi,
    >
    > I am an entry-level web designer wondering what to do. :| I have *a
    > lot* of questions so please bear with me. I know more people have been
    > in my situation, snd I'm wondering how you get out of it.


    <snip>

    > Is it technically possible for someone to actually know enough about
    > everything listed above to be considered adequate for a job or is it
    > better to specialize in a language and work from there?
    >
    > How do you get anywhere in this field if no one is willing to hire
    > you, so you can get that experience that companies all seem to want?!?
    >
    > I'm looking into getting a CIW certification. Might that help get me
    > somewhere?
    >
    > Any help would be greatly appreciated!


    When it comes to a server side programming language you are probably best
    off specializing in one.

    As a freelance web designer you will pretty much work in HTML, CSS and the
    one server side language you know... times will come up where somebody might
    ask you to work in a language you don't know and if that happens then you
    just either pass on the job or sell it to another designer with those skills
    (sell = get referral fee)

    As far as getting a job with a company and maintaining and running their
    website... those jobs do exist, but are extremely rare. Nowadays most
    bigger companies outsource their website's hosting and maintennance to other
    companies... and the smaller companies won't have enough work to keep a
    designer/webmaster on salary. The only way you'll get in there is if you
    are VERY good as a server side programming language (for the most part ASP
    or ASP.NET, though you will find some that use other languages)

    The alternative is to hone your skills and try to hire on to a web design
    company... but at this point you don't have any skills that would be in
    demand. Most web design companies hire only Graphic Designers and
    Programmers (Almost anybody can do HTML so there isn't any market for those
    skills, which is the category you fall in to right now)

    As far as getting certification... that won't really help. For the most
    part the day and age of static websites that only change if you pay a
    designer to update them is dying out. You need to learn some kind of server
    side language and hone your skills.

    That might sound overwhelming but once you learn the core syntax of a
    language and a few of the more common commands (looping, IF...ELSE, reading
    and writing to a database, outputting results to the browser,etc) that gives
    you more than enough to go on and a place to build from

    You could keep taking courses for the rest of your life but one thing they
    never teach you in school is that web design is primarily a freelance work
    field with limited full-time long term job opportunities - where your work
    breakdown is more like 80% sales and 20% actual web design.

    That might sound bleak... and if you have no sales and networking skills (or
    interest in doing either) then it could be and odds are you'll end up
    working at Starbucks whining and complaining all day long how the IT job
    market is dead, you can't get a job, outsourcing to India, how you wasted
    money on an education, etc

    But it doesn't have to be bad:

    First, don't sell your skills short. Sure people love free stuff and if you
    offer to do websites for free you might get a few jobs but it doesn't pay
    the bills. If you spend all your time doing freebies then you won't have any
    time to find paying work.

    Second, when you do get a job don't let anything slip through your fingers
    that you can make money off of. If you go out and build 50 websites and
    made $1000 each then you have $50,000... a good chunk of money but once its
    gone then its gone. Instead look into hosting where you can bill them
    $10-20 per month hosting (50 sites at $20 per month and you are now making
    $1000 a month in regular income). Start off as a reseller and work your way
    up... when you get enough sites you look in to colocating your own server
    and then if you keep expanding you can look into becoming your own host some
    day.

    Third, when you do get a client try to turn them in to a networking contact.
    If they like your work they'll probably reccomend you to others if they are
    asked, but if you give them an incentive to promote your service then they
    might go out and reccomend you to others on their own.
    Typically what you might want to do is offer them a 20% referral fee on any
    jobs they send your way (20% sounds like too much? Would you rather have 0
    jobs where you make 100% of the income? or even 1 job where you make only
    80%?). When the job is done leave them a couple of brochures and business
    cards (stuff they can leave on their counter)... write some kind of code on
    the back and tell them that anybody who takes a flyer or card you'll ask if
    there is a code on the back and if it matches theirs you'll give him the 20%
    commission

    Finally (there is more I could cover but this is my "finally"... I have to
    tend to my company here for a few things), if you have some skills but lack
    others then you might try to find other designers/developers/programmers in
    your area and team up with them. This is how alot of web design companies
    are formed... a couple of people (2 to 3 of them) join up to pool their
    skills and resources and look for work together. If you have a couple of
    people you can spend down time brainstorming up new ideas of sites to sell
    and ways to promote your company...
    Incidently this is how my company got started... I had a few jobs now
    and then, but thigns didn't get really rolling until I teamed up with a guy
    who was a whiz at graphics and pretty good at sales
     
    Augustus, May 18, 2004
    #3
  4. wrote:
    > Hi,
    >
    > I am an entry-level web designer wondering what to do. :| I have *a
    > lot* of questions so please bear with me. I know more people have been
    > in my situation, snd I'm wondering how you get out of it.
    >
    > I have:
    >
    > Software:
    > DW MX
    > Flash
    > Freehand
    > Fireworks
    > Photoshop 7/ImageReady


    you know flash? your best bet (to get into the money, not to get into making
    a /good/ site) is you could work for a graphic *design* company (as opposed
    to a *web* design company).

    You'll find that 9 out of 10 school leavers want to get into 'making web
    sites'. You have a very big competition before you even start.

    Every day I get people come to me showing me the things they have done, all
    *believing* that they are the 'super web developer dude', and wanting a job.

    My suggestion: keep your web design interests always fresh. Experiment on
    things for yourself. You will find that you will build up a portfolio doing
    this. If you are really good at your sql, and perhaps even have some
    experience in something like sybase or oracle, then try to get a job in a
    firm that will nurture your endevours - eg. a financial institution with a
    big r&d budget.

    Have you seen The Sound of Music? See it if you haven't.

    And learn UNIFACE. It is soon going to be extremely popular for web browser
    based applications in the corporate world.
     
    Disco Octopus, May 18, 2004
    #4
  5. Ryan Stewart Guest

    "Disco Octopus" <> wrote in message
    news:VMvqc.2153$...
    > wrote:
    > > Hi,
    > >
    > > I am an entry-level web designer wondering what to do. :| I have *a
    > > lot* of questions so please bear with me. I know more people have been
    > > in my situation, snd I'm wondering how you get out of it.
    > >
    > > I have:
    > >
    > > Software:
    > > DW MX
    > > Flash
    > > Freehand
    > > Fireworks
    > > Photoshop 7/ImageReady

    >
    > you know flash? your best bet (to get into the money, not to get into

    making
    > a /good/ site) is you could work for a graphic *design* company (as

    opposed
    > to a *web* design company).
    >
    > You'll find that 9 out of 10 school leavers want to get into 'making web
    > sites'. You have a very big competition before you even start.
    >
    > Every day I get people come to me showing me the things they have done,

    all
    > *believing* that they are the 'super web developer dude', and wanting a

    job.
    >
    > My suggestion: keep your web design interests always fresh. Experiment on
    > things for yourself. You will find that you will build up a portfolio

    doing
    > this. If you are really good at your sql, and perhaps even have some
    > experience in something like sybase or oracle, then try to get a job in a
    > firm that will nurture your endevours - eg. a financial institution with a
    > big r&d budget.
    >
    > Have you seen The Sound of Music? See it if you haven't.
    >
    > And learn UNIFACE. It is soon going to be extremely popular for web

    browser
    > based applications in the corporate world.
    >

    Are you talking about this?
    http://www.compuware.com/products/uniface/default.htm

    Why learn that? Learn J2EE. It does all that and more, and it's free.
     
    Ryan Stewart, May 18, 2004
    #5
  6. Mark Parnell Guest

    On Tue, 18 May 2004 22:05:41 GMT, Disco Octopus
    <> declared in alt.html:

    > Have you seen The Sound of Music? See it if you haven't.


    I haven't, but what on earth does it have to do with getting a job in
    web design?? IIRC, it was made (and set) somewhat before HTML ever came
    about. :)

    (Always promised myself that I wouldn't watch it, but I'm curious
    now...)

    --
    Mark Parnell
    http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au
     
    Mark Parnell, May 19, 2004
    #6
  7. Mark Parnell wrote:

    > On Tue, 18 May 2004 22:05:41 GMT, Disco Octopus
    > <> declared in alt.html:
    >
    >> Have you seen The Sound of Music? See it if you haven't.

    >
    > I haven't, but what on earth does it have to do with getting a job in
    > web design?? IIRC, it was made (and set) somewhat before HTML ever came
    > about. :)


    It was very forward-thinking.

    --
    Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
    Contact Me - http://www.goddamn.co.uk/tobyink/?page=132
     
    Toby A Inkster, May 19, 2004
    #7
  8. emlmar wrote:

    > ASP, DB, C++, HTML/DHTML, CSS, Flash, XML, Perl, PHP, CGI, Actionscript,
    > Java, Java Server Pages
    >
    > Is it technically possible for someone to actually know enough about
    > everything listed above to be considered adequate for a job or is it
    > better to specialize in a language and work from there?


    Yes, but I don't think you'd really want to.

    ASP, JSP, PHP, CGI/Perl and CGI/C++ are competing methods of server-side
    scripting, so you're probably fine to just learn one of them to start off
    with. Go with PHP because it's probably the most widely supported. Using
    C++ for server-side scripting is not done very commonly, but if you can
    get it going will stand you in very good stead -- it's very efficient
    compared with any of the others. As others have said, CGI is not a
    language itself but a concept that can be used in conjunction with other
    languages, such as Perl, Python and C. This concept can be learned in
    a matter of minutes.

    DB (I assume you mean databases in general, in which case an understanding
    of SQL is required as well as basic administration of one or two SQL
    servers such as MySQL, PostgreSQL, MS SQL or Access) is more or less a
    must for any vaguely complex site.

    Actionscript is a subset of Flash. Don't bother with either for now.

    DHTML is just a buzzword and one that hasn't been popular since 1998. It
    is an umbrella for HTML, CSS and Javascript, all three of which I would
    say are vital to know. HTML: you should know like the back of your hand.
    Learn every nook and cranny of thr HTML 4.01 Strict spec. CSS: you should
    know most of. Concentrate on CSS 2.1. Javascript: you should understand
    the principles well, even if you have to look up the syntax for the
    occasional function from time to time.

    --
    Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
    Contact Me - http://www.goddamn.co.uk/tobyink/?page=132
     
    Toby A Inkster, May 19, 2004
    #8
  9. Big Bill Guest

    On Tue, 18 May 2004 22:30:23 +0200, "Mitja" <> wrote:

    > <>
    >(news:) wrote:
    >> Hi,
    >>
    >> I am an entry-level web designer wondering what to do. :| I have *a
    >> lot* of questions so please bear with me. I know more people have been
    >> in my situation, snd I'm wondering how you get out of it.
    >>
    >> I have:
    >>
    >> Software:
    >> DW MX
    >> Flash
    >> Freehand
    >> Fireworks
    >> Photoshop 7/ImageReady
    >>
    >> Background:
    >> Internet Developer diploma
    >> Web Design certificate
    >> Over 15 years of PC computer background
    >> Work with transferring video from tape to web
    >> Tutored people at my local college in HTML
    >>
    >> I really enjoy maintaining websites by both handcoding and editor
    >> means. I just have a very hard time finding a job in the web designing
    >> field since I never seem to know enough.
    >>
    >> I've tried offering to do websites for little money to try to show
    >> what I can do, but everyone wants it for free. Sound familiar? ;)
    >>
    >> I just went through all the programming languages etc. that I would
    >> need to be experienced in and am overwhelmed by what to do or where to
    >> start. Apparently 2 years of coursework isn't enough and I feel like I
    >> would have to go to college for the rest of my life to even increase
    >> the chances of getting a job in this field... Then the problem of
    >> everything outdating so fast doesn't help either.
    >>
    >> ASP
    >> DB

    >
    >That's probably SQL you meant?
    >
    >> C++

    >
    >Why should you know C/C++ in order to make web pages?
    >
    >> HTML/DHTML
    >> CSS

    >
    >You already know those - at least you said so. If you're not familiar with
    >JS
    >
    >> Flash

    >
    >Some people want to have flashy sites, sure. So it doesn't hurt to be at
    >home with Flash, but it's far from absolutely necessary - though it may
    >costs you a few customers.


    There's alwyas Swish, Coffeecup Firestarter and Bannermaker.

    >> XML

    >
    >Why?


    No, I tend to agree with this to a degree.

    >> Perl
    >> PHP

    >
    >For most servers PHP and ASP should suffice. I personally favor Python (yet
    >another scripting language), although Perl is more widely supported.


    Pythin's probably better. Let's face it though, many people hang out
    their shingle as designers then outsource development work, Flash
    grahics etc.

    BB

    >> CGI

    >
    >That's just a generic name, not any particualr language.
    >
    >> Actionscript

    >
    >Part of Flash.
    >
    >> Java
    >> Java Server Pages

    >
    >See above - two or three scripting languages should get you anywhere.
    >Doesn't hurt to know more than that, and quite a few people do, but soner or
    >later you've got to specialize because you can't be really fluent in every
    >technology there is.
    >
    >>
    >> Is it technically possible for someone to actually know enough about
    >> everything listed above to be considered adequate for a job or is it
    >> better to specialize in a language and work from there?

    >
    >Depends on what your employer wants... It's usually just a part of
    >everything listed above, but more knowledge makes it possible to apply for
    >different jobs.
    >
    >> How do you get anywhere in this field if no one is willing to hire
    >> you, so you can get that experience that companies all seem to want?!?
    >>
    >> I'm looking into getting a CIW certification. Might that help get me
    >> somewhere?
    >>
    >> Any help would be greatly appreciated!

    >
     
    Big Bill, May 19, 2004
    #9
  10. Whitecrest Guest

    In article <>,
    says...
    > Actionscript is a subset of Flash. Don't bother with either for now.


    What the hell does "subset of flash"? That makes no sense at all.
    Actionscript is it's own language similar in syntax to Javascript.
    --
    Whitecrest Entertainment
    www.whitecrestent.com
     
    Whitecrest, May 19, 2004
    #10
  11. Whitecrest Guest

    In article <>,
    says...
    > >Some people want to have flashy sites, sure. So it doesn't hurt to be at
    > >home with Flash, but it's far from absolutely necessary - though it may
    > >costs you a few customers.

    > There's alwyas Swish, Coffeecup Firestarter and Bannermaker.


    Swish is a great little program ($50?) which fits the bill on 80% of the
    flash that you might want to make. Also depending on the site, it also
    is equally capable of drawing customers as it is to costing you a few.

    > Let's face it though, many people hang out
    > their shingle as designers then outsource development work, Flash
    > grahics etc.


    One of our biggest money makers is custom Flash and graphics.

    --
    Whitecrest Entertainment
    www.whitecrestent.com
     
    Whitecrest, May 19, 2004
    #11
  12. Guest

    On Tue, 18 May 2004 22:30:23 +0200, "Mitja" <> wrote:

    > <>
    >(news:) wrote:
    >> Hi,
    >>
    >> I am an entry-level web designer wondering what to do. :| I have *a
    >> lot* of questions so please bear with me. I know more people have been
    >> in my situation, snd I'm wondering how you get out of it.
    >>
    >> I have:
    >>
    >> Software:
    >> DW MX
    >> Flash
    >> Freehand
    >> Fireworks
    >> Photoshop 7/ImageReady
    >>
    >> Background:
    >> Internet Developer diploma
    >> Web Design certificate
    >> Over 15 years of PC computer background
    >> Work with transferring video from tape to web
    >> Tutored people at my local college in HTML
    >>
    >> I really enjoy maintaining websites by both handcoding and editor
    >> means. I just have a very hard time finding a job in the web designing
    >> field since I never seem to know enough.
    >>
    >> I've tried offering to do websites for little money to try to show
    >> what I can do, but everyone wants it for free. Sound familiar? ;)
    >>
    >> I just went through all the programming languages etc. that I would
    >> need to be experienced in and am overwhelmed by what to do or where to
    >> start. Apparently 2 years of coursework isn't enough and I feel like I
    >> would have to go to college for the rest of my life to even increase
    >> the chances of getting a job in this field... Then the problem of
    >> everything outdating so fast doesn't help either.
    >>
    >> ASP
    >> DB

    >
    >That's probably SQL you meant?


    Yes, but now there's Oracle. <sigh> :)
    >
    >> C++

    >
    >Why should you know C/C++ in order to make web pages?


    I never heard of it being used in order to make web pages, but a lot
    of programming jobs require it for some reason.I guess because it
    teaches foundation of programming.

    >
    >> HTML/DHTML
    >> CSS

    >
    >You already know those - at least you said so. If you're not familiar with
    >JS


    Javascript- I forgot that one and Vbscript come to think of it. I'm a
    novice in those.

    >
    >> Flash

    >
    >Some people want to have flashy sites, sure. So it doesn't hurt to be at
    >home with Flash, but it's far from absolutely necessary - though it may
    >costs you a few customers.


    I agree with that. It does have a lot of potential though only if used
    properly.
    >
    >> XML

    >
    >Why?

    It will replace HTML sooner or later based on what I've read. Also
    allows you to make your own tags.
    >
    >> Perl
    >> PHP

    >
    >For most servers PHP and ASP should suffice. I personally favor Python (yet
    >another scripting language), although Perl is more widely supported.
    >
    >> CGI

    >
    >That's just a generic name, not any particualr language.
    >
    >> Actionscript

    >
    >Part of Flash.
    >
    >> Java
    >> Java Server Pages

    >
    >See above - two or three scripting languages should get you anywhere.
    >Doesn't hurt to know more than that, and quite a few people do, but soner or
    >later you've got to specialize because you can't be really fluent in every
    >technology there is.
    >
    >>
    >> Is it technically possible for someone to actually know enough about
    >> everything listed above to be considered adequate for a job or is it
    >> better to specialize in a language and work from there?

    >
    >Depends on what your employer wants... It's usually just a part of
    >everything listed above, but more knowledge makes it possible to apply for
    >different jobs.
    >
    >> How do you get anywhere in this field if no one is willing to hire
    >> you, so you can get that experience that companies all seem to want?!?
    >>
    >> I'm looking into getting a CIW certification. Might that help get me
    >> somewhere?
    >>
    >> Any help would be greatly appreciated!

    >
    >
     
    , May 19, 2004
    #12
  13. Guest

    On Tue, 18 May 2004 22:05:41 GMT, "Disco Octopus"
    <> wrote:

    > wrote:
    >> Hi,
    >>
    >> I am an entry-level web designer wondering what to do. :| I have *a
    >> lot* of questions so please bear with me. I know more people have been
    >> in my situation, snd I'm wondering how you get out of it.
    >>
    >> I have:
    >>
    >> Software:
    >> DW MX
    >> Flash
    >> Freehand
    >> Fireworks
    >> Photoshop 7/ImageReady

    >
    >you know flash? your best bet (to get into the money, not to get into making
    >a /good/ site) is you could work for a graphic *design* company (as opposed
    >to a *web* design company).


    I'm still a beginner at Flash. I've spent too much time with DW. :)
    >
    >You'll find that 9 out of 10 school leavers want to get into 'making web
    >sites'. You have a very big competition before you even start.
    >

    You got that right.

    >Every day I get people come to me showing me the things they have done, all
    >*believing* that they are the 'super web developer dude', and wanting a job.
    >
    >My suggestion: keep your web design interests always fresh. Experiment on
    >things for yourself. You will find that you will build up a portfolio doing
    >this. If you are really good at your sql, and perhaps even have some
    >experience in something like sybase or oracle, then try to get a job in a
    >firm that will nurture your endevours - eg. a financial institution with a
    >big r&d budget.
    >

    I'm thinking of specializing in DB/SQL since there seems to be a big
    demand for that.

    >Have you seen The Sound of Music? See it if you haven't.
    >

    Yes, I've seen it. I've stopped and smelled the roses too. ;)
    >And learn UNIFACE. It is soon going to be extremely popular for web browser
    >based applications in the corporate world.
    >
    >

    I'll look into that a little.
     
    , May 19, 2004
    #13
  14. Guest

    On Tue, 18 May 2004 17:19:54 -0500, "Ryan Stewart"
    <> wrote:

    >"Disco Octopus" <> wrote in message
    >news:VMvqc.2153$...
    >> wrote:
    >> > Hi,
    >> >
    >> > I am an entry-level web designer wondering what to do. :| I have *a
    >> > lot* of questions so please bear with me. I know more people have been
    >> > in my situation, snd I'm wondering how you get out of it.
    >> >
    >> > I have:
    >> >
    >> > Software:
    >> > DW MX
    >> > Flash
    >> > Freehand
    >> > Fireworks
    >> > Photoshop 7/ImageReady

    >>
    >> you know flash? your best bet (to get into the money, not to get into

    >making
    >> a /good/ site) is you could work for a graphic *design* company (as

    >opposed
    >> to a *web* design company).
    >>
    >> You'll find that 9 out of 10 school leavers want to get into 'making web
    >> sites'. You have a very big competition before you even start.
    >>
    >> Every day I get people come to me showing me the things they have done,

    >all
    >> *believing* that they are the 'super web developer dude', and wanting a

    >job.
    >>
    >> My suggestion: keep your web design interests always fresh. Experiment on
    >> things for yourself. You will find that you will build up a portfolio

    >doing
    >> this. If you are really good at your sql, and perhaps even have some
    >> experience in something like sybase or oracle, then try to get a job in a
    >> firm that will nurture your endevours - eg. a financial institution with a
    >> big r&d budget.
    >>
    >> Have you seen The Sound of Music? See it if you haven't.
    >>
    >> And learn UNIFACE. It is soon going to be extremely popular for web

    >browser
    >> based applications in the corporate world.
    >>

    >Are you talking about this?
    >http://www.compuware.com/products/uniface/default.htm
    >
    >Why learn that? Learn J2EE. It does all that and more, and it's free.
    >
    >

    Oh great another language to learn! When will people be happy with
    what we have instead of trying to make everything better all the
    time?! :)
     
    , May 19, 2004
    #14
  15. Guest

    On Wed, 19 May 2004 07:18:02 +0100, Toby A Inkster
    <> wrote:

    >emlmar wrote:
    >
    >> ASP, DB, C++, HTML/DHTML, CSS, Flash, XML, Perl, PHP, CGI, Actionscript,
    >> Java, Java Server Pages
    >>
    >> Is it technically possible for someone to actually know enough about
    >> everything listed above to be considered adequate for a job or is it
    >> better to specialize in a language and work from there?

    >
    >Yes, but I don't think you'd really want to.
    >
    >ASP, JSP, PHP, CGI/Perl and CGI/C++ are competing methods of server-side
    >scripting, so you're probably fine to just learn one of them to start off
    >with. Go with PHP because it's probably the most widely supported. Using
    >C++ for server-side scripting is not done very commonly, but if you can
    >get it going will stand you in very good stead -- it's very efficient
    >compared with any of the others. As others have said, CGI is not a
    >language itself but a concept that can be used in conjunction with other
    >languages, such as Perl, Python and C. This concept can be learned in
    >a matter of minutes.


    OK.
    >
    >DB (I assume you mean databases in general, in which case an understanding
    >of SQL is required as well as basic administration of one or two SQL
    >servers such as MySQL, PostgreSQL, MS SQL or Access) is more or less a
    >must for any vaguely complex site.
    >

    Would Access be sufficient or is that getting phased out by MySQL,
    etc.?

    >Actionscript is a subset of Flash. Don't bother with either for now.
    >

    I agree.

    >DHTML is just a buzzword and one that hasn't been popular since 1998. It
    >is an umbrella for HTML, CSS and Javascript, all three of which I would
    >say are vital to know. HTML: you should know like the back of your hand.
    >Learn every nook and cranny of thr HTML 4.01 Strict spec. CSS: you should
    >know most of. Concentrate on CSS 2.1. Javascript: you should understand
    >the principles well, even if you have to look up the syntax for the
    >occasional function from time to time.

    I've spent most of my time in this area and am catching up with 4.01.
    I was wondering where CSS was at since they don't broadcast it as much
    as HTML. ;)

    >
    >--
    >Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
    >Contact Me - http://www.goddamn.co.uk/tobyink/?page=132
    >
     
    , May 19, 2004
    #15
  16. Guest

    On Tue, 18 May 2004 13:54:29 -0700, "Augustus"
    <> wrote:

    >
    ><> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >> Hi,
    >>
    >> I am an entry-level web designer wondering what to do. :| I have *a
    >> lot* of questions so please bear with me. I know more people have been
    >> in my situation, snd I'm wondering how you get out of it.

    >
    ><snip>
    >
    >> Is it technically possible for someone to actually know enough about
    >> everything listed above to be considered adequate for a job or is it
    >> better to specialize in a language and work from there?
    >>
    >> How do you get anywhere in this field if no one is willing to hire
    >> you, so you can get that experience that companies all seem to want?!?
    >>
    >> I'm looking into getting a CIW certification. Might that help get me
    >> somewhere?
    >>
    >> Any help would be greatly appreciated!

    >
    >When it comes to a server side programming language you are probably best
    >off specializing in one.
    >
    >As a freelance web designer you will pretty much work in HTML, CSS and the
    >one server side language you know... times will come up where somebody might
    >ask you to work in a language you don't know and if that happens then you
    >just either pass on the job or sell it to another designer with those skills
    >(sell = get referral fee)


    Looks like teaming up with people and distributing work is the best
    way to go.
    >
    >As far as getting a job with a company and maintaining and running their
    >website... those jobs do exist, but are extremely rare. Nowadays most
    >bigger companies outsource their website's hosting and maintennance to other
    >companies... and the smaller companies won't have enough work to keep a
    >designer/webmaster on salary. The only way you'll get in there is if you
    >are VERY good as a server side programming language (for the most part ASP
    >or ASP.NET, though you will find some that use other languages)
    >

    I've only been lucky to maintain sites volunteer-wise. What is the
    difference between ASP and ASP.Net?

    >The alternative is to hone your skills and try to hire on to a web design
    >company... but at this point you don't have any skills that would be in
    >demand. Most web design companies hire only Graphic Designers and
    >Programmers (Almost anybody can do HTML so there isn't any market for those
    >skills, which is the category you fall in to right now)
    >

    OK. I've noticed that in the job ads...

    >As far as getting certification... that won't really help. For the most
    >part the day and age of static websites that only change if you pay a
    >designer to update them is dying out. You need to learn some kind of server
    >side language and hone your skills.
    >

    I like self-learning and there are *tons* of tutorials online. Any
    really good sites you know of- that would make me an expert in like an
    hour? ;)

    >That might sound overwhelming but once you learn the core syntax of a
    >language and a few of the more common commands (looping, IF...ELSE, reading
    >and writing to a database, outputting results to the browser,etc) that gives
    >you more than enough to go on and a place to build from
    >

    I'm thinking of specializing in database since a lot of jobs seem to
    be looking for that. Is it possible to get a job in that specialty or
    any other for that matter without a degree of sorts? I get the
    impression that companies want everything on paper, but if I create a
    few myself and provide a link to them on my resume would that be
    sufficient?

    >You could keep taking courses for the rest of your life but one thing they
    >never teach you in school is that web design is primarily a freelance work
    >field with limited full-time long term job opportunities - where your work
    >breakdown is more like 80% sales and 20% actual web design.


    True. And the lack of hands on experience in my case made matters
    worse.
    >
    >That might sound bleak... and if you have no sales and networking skills (or
    >interest in doing either) then it could be and odds are you'll end up
    >working at Starbucks whining and complaining all day long how the IT job
    >market is dead, you can't get a job, outsourcing to India, how you wasted
    >money on an education, etc
    >

    :)

    >But it doesn't have to be bad:
    >
    >First, don't sell your skills short. Sure people love free stuff and if you
    >offer to do websites for free you might get a few jobs but it doesn't pay
    >the bills. If you spend all your time doing freebies then you won't have any
    >time to find paying work.


    I've volunteered for a few sites, but it was only maintenance so it's
    hard to show what *you've* done since it's working with a site someone
    else created. And, yes, the bills keep right on coming. :)

    >
    >Second, when you do get a job don't let anything slip through your fingers
    >that you can make money off of. If you go out and build 50 websites and
    >made $1000 each then you have $50,000... a good chunk of money but once its
    >gone then its gone. Instead look into hosting where you can bill them
    >$10-20 per month hosting (50 sites at $20 per month and you are now making
    >$1000 a month in regular income). Start off as a reseller and work your way
    >up... when you get enough sites you look in to colocating your own server
    >and then if you keep expanding you can look into becoming your own host some
    >day.


    I have been seriously thinking about getting my own server, etc. Is it
    possible to do with a home computer or do you have to buy a server per
    se? I would think it would be nice to get server space to make my
    sites on, etc. and at the same time "lease" space to other people who
    want web space. The monthly costs add up when I had to get my own
    domain name and host (Burlee). It would be worth it if I had made some
    money creating sites, but when money's not coming in it doesn't seem
    worth it. I assume that if I had my own server, I can create my own
    domain,etc. Is that right?

    Can you provide me with more info on how to be a reseller and for
    whom?

    >
    >Third, when you do get a client try to turn them in to a networking contact.
    >If they like your work they'll probably reccomend you to others if they are
    >asked, but if you give them an incentive to promote your service then they
    >might go out and reccomend you to others on their own.
    >Typically what you might want to do is offer them a 20% referral fee on any
    >jobs they send your way (20% sounds like too much? Would you rather have 0
    >jobs where you make 100% of the income? or even 1 job where you make only
    >80%?). When the job is done leave them a couple of brochures and business
    >cards (stuff they can leave on their counter)... write some kind of code on
    >the back and tell them that anybody who takes a flyer or card you'll ask if
    >there is a code on the back and if it matches theirs you'll give him the 20%
    >commission
    >

    I tried that, but couldn't even get a first person to make that
    possible. :|

    >Finally (there is more I could cover but this is my "finally"... I have to
    >tend to my company here for a few things), if you have some skills but lack
    >others then you might try to find other designers/developers/programmers in
    >your area and team up with them. This is how alot of web design companies
    >are formed... a couple of people (2 to 3 of them) join up to pool their
    >skills and resources and look for work together. If you have a couple of
    >people you can spend down time brainstorming up new ideas of sites to sell
    >and ways to promote your company...
    > Incidently this is how my company got started... I had a few jobs now
    >and then, but thigns didn't get really rolling until I teamed up with a guy
    >who was a whiz at graphics and pretty good at sales
    >

    This is probably the best route for me at this time and will look into
    this. I'm sure there are lots of graphic artists that need a
    programmer/coder or someone swamped with sites that needs help.

    Thanks very much for your help. I now feel like I have a direction to
    go again! :)
     
    , May 19, 2004
    #16
  17. Web design is going the way of word processing - 20 some years ago
    lots of companies started up to type letters for companies, now if you
    want to do a letter you open up Word or Wordperfect and do it
    yourself. The same is going to becoming true of web design - and they
    are teaching it in the 4th grade now.

    So I agree the competition is going to be too intense as a designer.
    You are exactly right to move more into db, ecommerce, web services or
    - what I consider the HOT field of the future - webmastering. No, web
    designers are NOT webmasters - webmasters host, manage, promote,
    update and build specialized web applications for their clients, and
    oh yeah do some design as well.

    That is where the market is heading - lots of companies wondering what
    to do now with these pretty websites they've got.

    wrote in message news:<>...
    > On Tue, 18 May 2004 17:19:54 -0500, "Ryan Stewart"
    > <> wrote:
    >
    > >"Disco Octopus" <> wrote in message
    > >news:VMvqc.2153$...
    > >> wrote:
    > >> > Hi,
    > >> >
    > >> > I am an entry-level web designer wondering what to do. :| I have *a
    > >> > lot* of questions so please bear with me. I know more people have been
    > >> > in my situation, snd I'm wondering how you get out of it.
    > >> >
    > >> > I have:
    > >> >
    > >> > Software:
    > >> > DW MX
    > >> > Flash
    > >> > Freehand
    > >> > Fireworks
    > >> > Photoshop 7/ImageReady
    > >>
    > >> you know flash? your best bet (to get into the money, not to get into

    > making
    > >> a /good/ site) is you could work for a graphic *design* company (as

    > opposed
    > >> to a *web* design company).
    > >>
    > >> You'll find that 9 out of 10 school leavers want to get into 'making web
    > >> sites'. You have a very big competition before you even start.
    > >>
    > >> Every day I get people come to me showing me the things they have done,

    > all
    > >> *believing* that they are the 'super web developer dude', and wanting a

    > job.
    > >>
    > >> My suggestion: keep your web design interests always fresh. Experiment on
    > >> things for yourself. You will find that you will build up a portfolio

    > doing
    > >> this. If you are really good at your sql, and perhaps even have some
    > >> experience in something like sybase or oracle, then try to get a job in a
    > >> firm that will nurture your endevours - eg. a financial institution with a
    > >> big r&d budget.
    > >>
    > >> Have you seen The Sound of Music? See it if you haven't.
    > >>
    > >> And learn UNIFACE. It is soon going to be extremely popular for web

    > browser
    > >> based applications in the corporate world.
    > >>

    > >Are you talking about this?
    > >http://www.compuware.com/products/uniface/default.htm
    > >
    > >Why learn that? Learn J2EE. It does all that and more, and it's free.
    > >
    > >

    > Oh great another language to learn! When will people be happy with
    > what we have instead of trying to make everything better all the
    > time?! :)
     
    Steve Veltkamp, May 19, 2004
    #17
  18. emlmar wrote:

    > Would Access be sufficient or is that getting phased out by MySQL,
    > etc.?


    Access is quite commonly used on Windows servers. But Windows servers make
    up less than half of all Internet servers, and a Windows/IIS servers less
    than a third.

    MySQL is probably the most common Unix/Linux database (there are many
    others though, such as PostgreSQL and Oracle) and is also available on
    many Windows servers.

    But learning SQL and database skills in general is the best place to
    start, as that sort of knowledge can be applied to almost any database.

    --
    Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
    Contact Me - http://www.goddamn.co.uk/tobyink/?page=132
     
    Toby A Inkster, May 19, 2004
    #18
  19. emlmar wrote:

    > I have been seriously thinking about getting my own server, etc. Is it
    > possible to do with a home computer or do you have to buy a server per
    > se?


    You can set up a server on any old bit of kit you have lying about.

    Get an old computer (any Pentium-class system will do) and go get a copy
    of Mandrake Linux 10.0 Official and install it. Easy peasy. Make sure you
    install MySQL, PHP, Perl, Apache and Postfix. Anything under, say 300MHz
    will probably be too slow for a desktop system, but will do fine as a test
    server.

    (Make sure the computer's behind a firewall until you know what you're
    doing.)

    If you want to use it as a proper host (not just for testing) you'll also
    need to learn a bit about server security, get a fixed IP address and a
    decent connection (at least ADSL).

    --
    Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
    Contact Me - http://www.goddamn.co.uk/tobyink/?page=132
     
    Toby A Inkster, May 19, 2004
    #19
  20. wrote:
    >>That's probably SQL you meant?

    >
    > Yes, but now there's Oracle. <sigh> :)



    Oracle is a DBMS. It uses SQL.
     
    Leif K-Brooks, May 19, 2004
    #20
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